( I had posted this yesterday in the DPS Roles section of this forum but it didn't look too busy over there. I'm gonna try again and post it over.)
Since we're a job that dual-wields, I would like to be able to mix up my ninja weapons. My favorite rog/nin weapons are the Adamantite Main Gauches and the Withered Vajras, because they look like a pair of Sais. I collect rog/nin weapons and am constantly switching up glamours for em. There are quite a number of rog/nin weapons that I like.
But lately I've been feeling unsatisfied. The Rog/Nin weapons always come in identical pairs. It's never a different looking weapon in each hand. I wish I could have one of my favorite weapons in one hand, and, say, a Shinryu Dagger or Karasu dagger or just a plain ol' dagger in the other. Just another way to express individuality and expand customization.
You know Thancred? He now gets to use a washed-up Allagan Cleaver along with his steel baselard. Wow that looks cool I thought. I wish I could dual wield different weapons in each hand just he can. Wink wink nudge nudge.
So, I request that we Ninjas are given the option to mix up our ninja weapons. As for how you'd go about doing that... You know the extra slot in our gear window for tank shields and DoL/DoH tools? How about, for Rouges and Ninjas, have that slot be used as a glamour slot for secondary weapons we'd like to glamour up? Something like that. Orrrrr you can get that art team to start drawing up some non-identical rog/nin weapons.
One last thing. Can we get a pair of Doman Sais in the game please? Because there are Katana's, kanabo's, Zangetsu's, and good ol ninja short swords. But no Sais. So, Sai weapons please.
That's it from me. Thanks for reading.
Edit: I clearly didn't think about the other jobs that have kinda-sorta off hand weapons, as the others have mentioned. So requesting more customization options for only my Ninjas is totally unfair. So, my request is still the same. But, applied to every other class that has a visual off-hand/ second-hand weapon.
Thank you.
A request from a Ninja.
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12-21-2018, 02:32 PMHaruka_RA request from a Ninja.
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12-21-2018, 03:39 PMGemina
I was actually a bit surprised coming into this game to find out that NINs didn't equip anything in their offhand slot. An issue I already see is for those who don't mind dual wielding twin blades would be screwed for anything that is unique. Think of the two ring slots when equipping blues or certain greens. Otherwise, it could easily be handled in the same manner that PLDs are with their swords and shields.
Not likely to happen though. The closest would probably be blades that are intentionally different by design. However, you wouldn't be able to choose the second. -
12-21-2018, 03:55 PMIscah
The two daggers are programmed as a single item, so you'd need to have "pre-made" mismatched pairs rather than being able to pick your two individual daggers.
Several other jobs also have "two-piece" weapons we can't control, though. Red mage's floating gem, arrows for archer, machinists' aetherotransformer that doesn't even change design with different guns... they'd have to redesign every item to split the pieces if they were going to let us actually mix and match. -
12-21-2018, 06:21 PMChaseNetwork
Honestly, I'm not sure why they bother having Shield be a seperate equip. Only DoH/DoL actually use that slot. Paladins basically have to keep their shield paired with their straight sword.
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12-21-2018, 06:55 PMSatarnThat's because the 2.0 shields actually had non-linear stat differences between them(likely a leftover from 1.x times). You could've wanted to use a different shield with either higher block chance or block value.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaseNetwork
As for the request, like Iscah already suggested, both daggers are mechanically a single item so it'd be impossible to allow mixed glamours without completely rewriting every single pair. That said, having some new NIN weapons be mismatched is a great suggestion and totally doable. -
12-21-2018, 07:19 PMNalienMore customisation options are never a bad thing? Imagine finding the perfect sword and it being locked to an absolutely hideous shield... I'm very glad the shield is separate...Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaseNetwork
Would love the same for Ninja as well, although first things first, can we get more than half a dozen eastern themed weapons for the job? So much of the gear for Ninja seems to have been designed with Thief in mind, rather than Ninja... Heck the final Anima weapon took the name from a XI Thief Relic weapon, rather than a Ninja one... So much of the job is kind of disappointed to be honest... Death Blossom and Throwing Dagger need to change to being kunai or something rather than the same daggers Thancred has thrown about since 1.0... It doesn't even really duel wield, you hit once, same as every other job... Meanwhile Sword Oath Paladin basically hits twice with auto attacks... It's kinda funny how much better Paladin is than Ninja in this regard...
As for mechanically allowing us to mismatch weapons... Could they not just introduce a series of purely glamour based versions of Ninjas weapons that we equip and they overwrite the appearance of the weapon in the offhand? Honestly I've always figured the offhand slot could be used for purely cosmetic changes to jobs for a long time... Something like Bard getting to customise their harp that way, or pet jobs like Summoner equipping an item that determines what pet glamour they summon rather than that godsawful text command... -
12-21-2018, 09:28 PMRongway
The easiest implementation, with the fewest side effects, would be to create a dummy weapon that goes in the off hand, whose sole purpose is to serve as a glamour item. This avoids several problems that would need to be dealt with if weapons were separate:
- You won't have split loot (like when two PLDs in a party have to fight over a sword and shield).
- You won't have to buy two tomestone weapons if you want to upgrade one (like PLD has to buy both the sword and the shield and upgrade them simultaneously with a single token)
- Extra dev time doesn't need to be spent in the future designing extra weapons.
- Extra space doesn't need to be spent on having two separate weapons where each other job only has one.
- Weapon stats won't need to be balanced to account for splitting across two separate weapons.
Basically,
Main hand: has all the stats
Off hand: has 0 stats, serves only to be glamoured. A single item to be used at all levels.
if (off hand not equipped)
....draw main hand weapon in both hands
else
....draw main hand weapon in main hand
....draw off hand glamour in off hand
And while we're at it, this could be extended to RDM and PLD:
RDM: Have a universal dummy offhand just for glamour.
if (off hand not equipped)
....draw main hand rapier
....draw matching magicked crystal medium
else
....draw just the main hand glamour's rapier
....draw just the off hand glamour's magicked crystal medium
PLD: Combine swords and shields into a single slot, creating parity with every other combat job. Have a universal dummy shield just for glamour.
if (off hand not equipped)
....draw main hand sword
....draw matching shield
else
....draw just the main hand glamour's sword
....draw just the off hand glamour's shield -
12-22-2018, 01:16 AMDeithwenI really like this idea, considering Zidane from FF IX uses 2 different daggers for instance, we would be able to make more precise glamours of this character for intance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haruka_R
Other than that, only Paladins are able to glamour a different off hand, it would be nice to have that for other jobs too. -
12-22-2018, 06:20 AMwereotter
It becomes a bit of a slippery slope when you start to seperate the ninja daggers from each other, and while I would love to do the look of a short sword in my main hand with a dagger in my off hand while playing as a ninja, I also realize that once you do this for ninjas, then you also open the door to monks wanting two different fist weapons equipped, red mages wanting to mix up their jewel and rapier, bards wanting different arrows for their bows etc etc.
This creates the requirement of a lot of work for little in-game benefit, and while I always do think more options are better, I also would say that if implementing those options takes away other meaningful, playable content, then they should place it on the back burner. -
12-22-2018, 08:05 AMRongwayExcept no, it would just be a one time modification to the system. Rapiers and magicked crystal mediums are already two separate 3D models. NIN weapons use the same dagger model twice. MNK weapons use the same model twice. Once the system gets set up to handle this, no extra work needs to be done on assets.Quote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
There is no slippery slope here. -
12-22-2018, 10:00 AMIscah
Even if the models are separate, that might not make it a simple thing to change it. They may still have to go into every model and add instructions to make the "off-hand" section vanish if a separate item is equipped there. And they would have to create a new item for each piece of off-hand gear.
And as wereotter said, that might well be judged as not a worthwhile thing to spend their time on - and possibly an unnecessary increase to the overall file size of the game, if it has to store these "new" item models separately to their identical originals. -
12-22-2018, 10:04 AMRongwayThat's included in the one time modification to the system, though. And no, they don't need to create a new item for each piece of off-hand gear: that's the whole point of having a singular off-hand usable at all levels that serves only to be a glamour receptacle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
Yes, it would require work to change. But once the system were set up, it wouldn't commit us to forever spending extra dev time on it. -
12-22-2018, 10:20 AMIscahBut what gets glamoured onto that receptacle? Items. In fact there would be no point to having the "statless glamour receptacle" in the first place, you'd just have the individual items to be placed directly in the slot. It would have the same end result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
And I would much rather the two-piece weapons continue to come as they are, with a matching off-hand part already integrated into the design.
This also seems to be the developers' preference, given their choice to make RDM weapons - and even NIN - integrated from the start when they clearly could have been separate at a concept level. -
12-22-2018, 10:28 AMRongwayYou're overcomplicating this. Just glamour the mainhand weapon onto the offhand dummy item. You don't have to double the number of weapons and make all offhands their own items. That's what the offhand glamour receptacle would be for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
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12-22-2018, 10:40 AMIscahThe game isn't going to let you do that. It's not how it handles glamours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
You can only glamour items onto other items of the same type, and a main-hand weapon is not an off-hand weapon.
This is why we still can't even glamour "one-handed conjurer's weapons" over "two-handed conjurer's weapons". The game doesn't see them as the same class of item.
Additionally the theoretical receptacle would need to be Lv1 (or even Lv50 for a beginner RDM) so you can equip it straight away, but all your weapons are going to be higher-leveled than that, and the glamour system will not let you apply glamours to an item with a lower level than the glamour piece.
I'm not just overcomplicating things. The game is overcomplicated in its item system, and you have to follow its logic. -
12-22-2018, 11:02 AMRongwayThat's the whole point of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
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12-22-2018, 11:15 AMNalienI think it could make for some form of additional "content" to have such a system in place. Granted, I'm thinking more about what I suggested with Bard and Summoner for that (do Sephirot, get drop that you equip to have Sephirot-Egi), but it holds true for Ninja as well. Rather than going out and getting one weapon to use for a glamour, you're getting two. They add a new weapon that you prefer? Might work better with a different weapon in the offhand so you can go out and get that. Perhaps it works better with the Final Coil weapon, so suddenly you're out doing Final Coil.Quote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
It's not a massive piece of content, but it's something else to do, and glamour is the true endgame after all... I'd actually rather SE make new options like this, than just continue to provide us with more of the same... Ideal world I'd want both, since more options are never bad, but given the choice between one new set of weapons for every job, or a new way to customise all the existing weapons in the game? I'd opt for the later. I'd gladly pass up a new set of glamour options to instead have more options with the existing glamours. They add a new set of daggers, I consider that vs what I currently use and that's it. They add something like is being suggested here? Suddenly I'm reconsidering almost every dagger in the game, and the content involved to obtain them. -
12-22-2018, 11:53 AMHercubI don't know as a kung fu cowboy I like my weapons even so there is no imbalance in the stance and the Chi. I kind of agree in essence in terms of the MCH, which I also play. This guy is riding straight up shotgun in my opinion. But why can't he have a couple of pistols? Like I always say never bring a knife to a gun fight. The original war wasn't Pirates vs. Ninjas but Cowboys Vs. Ninja. Man, that was straight up fist no weapons involved. Man, I'm a cowboy, baby. --Quote from a Kid Rock Song. The lyrics were changed in that song, it wasn't "I can smell a pimp from a mile away," it was instead, "I can smell a pig from a mile away."Quote:
Originally Posted by Haruka_R
I guess at some point the FCC is coming down on this game. Man, get the FDA in check before you bother us. If a medicine is supposed to cure Krohns or IBS and it has more side effects than the problem, and if you are taking medication on top of medication just to cure the side effects...then it's time to just take the plunge and drink a nice cold can of Diet Coke or two. In Japan it actually has fiber it. I love Japan. I'm just straight up Mexican right here, I know not to desecrate that culture with my presence. -
12-22-2018, 03:47 PMHaruka_RNo such thing. It's a quality of life sort-of thing, and the little things should always be appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
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12-23-2018, 12:24 AMKeddera_StormMoon
Kinda bothered me how Paladins were the only ones that had offhand weapon they have to equip, and yet NIN and RMG never got a separate offhand weapon slot. I mean, it's not a deal breaker - but always puzzled me they went that route - seems inconsistant.
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12-23-2018, 01:54 AMkikix12Your idea is actually excessively complicated compared to what the original poster said. There is no need for any dummy or whatever. You're going to need the source of glamour anyway. So just use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
Have all the weapons that come with two parts (bow and arrows, two daggers, two "fist" weapons etc.) recognize having two models, naming each model "main hand" and "off hand". It's possible it's already like that for the sake of placing the models in the right hands, so there may not be any change needed.
If you equip an item normally in the main hand it uses both models as normal, as it is now.
If you equip an item in the off hand, then only its off hand model is used to replace the off hand model of whatever is held. A simple "glamour" that uses the existing system. No stats are added.
Basically, there are three things that need to be done for this (one of which may already be in the game).
1) Naming the models as main hand and off hand within the code. This makes parts of a single item possible to glamour over and without separating the item into two.
2) Change the flag either for the weapons or the off-hand slot to allow main-hand weapons to be put in it, with no stats added. Changing the slot is obviously way less time consuming.
3) Make a system that automatically glamours over the "off-hand" weapon of what's equipped in the main slot with the "off-hand" weapon of whatever is used in the off-hand slot. This is the only really new piece of coding, but one that uses parts of glamour system (without the prism though).
All in all, provided that the models aren't "fused" somehow into a single file, this is work for a single day for a single person. Most time consuming is changing the flags for models of every game, but they must have some sort of a database, so it's mainly just copy/paste work that'll take four or five seconds per weapon. A pain, but not really hard. -
12-23-2018, 09:32 AMRongwayNames are irrelevant. The models can be called by number. The rapier and medium models are already separate assets, and each paired weapon is just a single weapon drawn twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by kikix12
Quote:
If you equip an item normally in the main hand it uses both models as normal, as it is now.
If you equip an item in the off hand, then only its off hand model is used to replace the off hand model of whatever is held. A simple "glamour" that uses the existing system. No stats are added.
This would require keeping secondary weapons in your armoury chest at all times, which would impinge on one of the few merits of the glamour dresser. It would also require that you maintain separate gearsets if you want different weapon combinations on the same job. In short, you'd be shifting the minor problems of the glamour dresser over to the armoury chest.Quote:
2) Change the flag either for the weapons or the off-hand slot to allow main-hand weapons to be put in it, with no stats added. Changing the slot is obviously way less time consuming.
3) Make a system that automatically glamours over the "off-hand" weapon of what's equipped in the main slot with the "off-hand" weapon of whatever is used in the off-hand slot. This is the only really new piece of coding, but one that uses parts of glamour system (without the prism though).
My solution is not significantly more complicated than what you're suggesting. Both require modification of the system to understand and allow that you can have "something" equipped in the offhand slot. Mine just adds a slight modification to the glamour validation routine:
Where currently, we have something like
we would need something likeCode:valid = glamourItem.EquipableBy.contains(character.CurrentJob.ID)
and glamourItem.Lv <= baseItem.Lv
and glamourItem.Slot == baseItem.Slot;
Of which the level checking line would be better than what we have now, even outside of this thread topic, since the purpose of the level checking line is so you can't take on the appearance of a higher level than you actually are, and checking the item's level is a step more restrictive than it needs to be to uphold the spirit of this rule.Code:isOffhandGlamour = glamourItem.Slot == mainhand
and baseItem.Slot == offhand;
valid = glamourItem.EquipableBy.contains(character.CurrentJob.ID)
and glamourItem.Lv <= character.CurrentJob.Lv // to allow glamouring onto Lv1 offhand receptacle
and (glamourItem.Slot == baseItem.Slot or isOffhandGlamour);
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12-23-2018, 06:58 PMkikix12This is pointless. I specifically used quotation marks the first time around to denote that the importance is with separating the two parts in code, not with the name. I even said as much. I never implied that naming is relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
You really should pay more attention when reading. I clearly said that it's most likely the case already. Most likely...because Square Enix have done more than a fair share of illogical development decisions that no programmer worth their salt should even think about doing, so I won't dismiss the idea of them trying their best to make the system as inflexible as possible even in this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
You could keep it in glamour dresser, not in armoury chest. Armoury chest basically fills a slot with a "weapon" glamour. Why would it work any different here?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
As for keeping it in armoury inventory, it could be possible to connect the "main weapons" with the sub-weapons armoury chest when they are used in the off-hand. That is the single armoury space that is way underutilized and it was not until I mass-leveled the crafters/gatherers that I even had to remove something from it. It's still the only one where I have tons of free space now that I removed some of the old tools, with more still being obsolete and could be removed.
How's that different from sword and shield of defender or any other piece?! That dummy of yours needs to be somewhere too. And to change glamour on it you'll need the other weapon anyway. So your idea adds ANOTHER weapon on top of what's needed. Unless me and others that responded completely misunderstand that idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
Again, you already need a weapon to use it for glamour and you need a different weapon if you want to change that glamour. You won't get to change them from a list without base items. -
12-24-2018, 02:32 AMEdax
Mismatched daggers would give me OCD. I'm glad I wouldn't have to run a raid for twice as long (perhaps longer cause RNG) just to get 2 identical daggers.
However, I wouldn't mind a purely cosmetic dagger that's equipped on the back of my character. Both my Samurai and Ninja have a tanto knife. It would be interesting if this became customizable.
https://i.imgur.com/zKaPomP.png
https://i.imgur.com/FDxNB4j.png