Thanks to the 2nd lore book my theory on house Dzemael could hold some truth

Okay so for a long while now I've always wondered why house Dzemael seems to not like the Wol and I always figured that it was because we found out they were up to some adult stuff in their Darkhold only to have it become over run with voidsent. Thanks to the lore book it could be plausible. This just going off the gear that's found inside of it as two sets are fairly skimpy and the other look like someone was hosting a costume party? I do know that in the other quests where a Dzemael house member shows up and is being a jerk is more towards the other npcs and we just happen to be there, but to me it always felt like they just never liked the fact we learned they have a kink of some sort. So anytime they see us "favoring" another house they freak out that we're going to tell them about the coliseum shawl and the dps set.

I mean we do have Haurchefant or someone else from Fortemps requesting boarskin harnesses for bedroom activities in at least one levequest so I'm gonna guess that that's not something they'd be worried about.

No, I got the impression that Dzemael has the big elitist attitude of the high houses. In contrast, Haillenarte loves artisans and they don't mind adventurers but fell on hard times recently. Fortemps is way more successful on the business side and also hires artisans and adventurers. Haillenarte and Fortemps are basically allies since they're quite similar in many respects. Durendaire and Dzemael are sorta allies with each other but both dislike Fortemps/try to rival Fortemps (and ignore Haillenarte mostly) in the political arena. Durendaire is more practical so we manage to win them over a bit in Whitebrim but Dzemael isn't on the front lines and would never lower themselves to associate with us...you can see from the Scholasticate quests that we just barely get the time of day from one of the sons, and only because Briardien is there.

As for the gear in Dzemael Darkhold, not sure any gear that drops in any dungeons necessarily has any lore significance. As an example, St Mocianne's Arboretum (Hard) is in the Dravanian Hinterlands but drops Ala Mhigan Resistance-style gear.

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

As for the gear in Dzemael Darkhold, not sure any gear that drops in any dungeons necessarily has any lore significance. As an example, St Mocianne's Arboretum (Hard) is in the Dravanian Hinterlands but drops Ala Mhigan Resistance-style gear.

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Good point. Especially since the stuff that drops in Darkhold is stuff that a lot of the fighters in the bloodsands wear.

I don't think the hard mode armor drops count so much? That and Haurchefant isn't like his fellow Ishgardians. Most armor in the normal versions drop gear that makes sense for where you're getting them from. They fit the theme/style of the place we're going through. Dzemael comes off as stuffy and uptight as they're the ones that seem to be strongly against anything that's not the status quo. Just look at the mch questline for example. Heck even those who are their wards seem to behave in a such a way that even if they didn't mention that they were one right off the bat it makes you go they have to be a Dzemael. It's because they're so stuffy and uptight that they would be the ones that had a secret that they wouldn't want the other houses to know about.

The one exception we've seen to the usual "House Dzemael are jerks" rule is Tarresson from the moogle quests.

(And Tedalgrinche was surprisingly noble in defeat, though he was rather awful along the way.)



Also I looked up the dungeon information for the Darkhold. For what it's worth, the coliseum gear only comes from the All-Seeing Eye battle, while the other two bosses both drop the Buccaneer/Harlequin/Sentinel/Templar sets. Gear from treasure chests includes knights' armour, seneschal coatee (granted, rather revealing on female characters, but not necessarily the intent) and jester's cap.



And if you're going to hold dungeon items as actually belonging to the House previously in charge of the area.... you get peisteskin harnesses and subligars from the Stone Vigil which was a House Durendaire garrison.

Maybe the whole lot of them have interesting hobbies going on, and Haurchefant is just the only one who won't keep quiet about it.

(not being serious about that though...)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Maybe the whole lot of them have interesting hobbies going on, and Haurchefant is just the only one who won't keep quiet about it.

(not being serious about that though...)

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Any culture with extremely repressed sexuality is gonna get hella weird once you get past the veneer of civility...and nobles have strange hobbies. Like the noble who wants to add weird animals you fish up to his aquarium, and at some point another noble gets into a competition with him about who can get the weirdest fish. And then there are the nobles in Camp Dragonhead who decide to create a new sport called spineball which involves kicking spiny urchins into a barrel. They even have a tournament! (levequests, how you amuse me.)

Ahaha yes! I love reading through the levequest descriptions!

(Well, except for the few rather grim ones providing supplies to the Inquisition...) D:


....and ah. Right. When I said interesting hobbies I meant "interesting" hobbies of the variety Sanna is proposing....

Other than Haurchefant's rather harmless but obviously eccentric tendencies, we have temple knights who make a habit of dragging off young women from the Brume to rape them...

And then we have the Ishgardian merchant in Kugane who is not only not put off by the fact that an actor he previously thought was a beautiful lady was really an average guy in lots of make-up, he doubles down on his fascination and passionately declares his continued interest.

I'd have to keep poking around to find more flavor text and sidequests. Ishgard is a colorful place full of many secrets! I feel like most Elezen are dignified stuffed shirts at first glance but are usually secretly (or openly) obsessed with at least one thing to the point of eccentricity.

Eccentric characters are the fun ones! ...Stephanivien for MSQ link-in, please.


Something that occurred to me a while ago with Ishgard is that you get so much talk of scheming nobles and politics and taking petty revenge on other Houses.... and yet we meet people from all the main families and they all seem really nice. Is it all the cousins and uncles being less courteous, or what? Obviously there are a lot more people "of the House" than those we know - most of the levequest descriptions point to characters that can't be the ones we've met. (I can't see Edmont and Baurendouin being the ones fighting it out over their rare fish collections, anyway...)

They've gotta be cousins and aunts/uncles or something. Ninne in Camp Dragonhead seems to be a noble of Fortemps, for example. 1000 years of tracking your pedigree means they'd be keeping tabs on a lot of family branches.

IRL for example they managed to find a relative or two of King Richard III to confirm via DNA that the body found in the parking lot was Richard...so quite possibly anyone up to a certain degree of separation would be considered a noble of a high house, with anyone going outside of those lines being 'demoted' to a different noble house. After all, everything we see is condensed...so we need to multiply the number of people we see in any town or area by about 10 (except for some adventurers, I think) to have a good grasp of how many people we haven't met, or how many are populating the city-states.

I think it would be funny to assume it's Artoirel with the fish collection, though. XD

I mean Koji did say there are a lot more people we don't meet or see in the towns. Also when you are of a culture where sometimes even the slightest of things out of the "normal" can get you thought of as a heretic I'm sure there are behaviors or events that are only talked about or done in hushed tones behind closed doors. Look at poor Cyr as an example of how desperate he was to find something he could charge the Mandervilles with. Also yes Stephanivien needs more spot light. I do remember Tarresson saying he doesn't know what the heck is wrong with his family's current generation and that he apologized for any sour taste in our mouth his house might have given us.

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

I think it would be funny to assume it's Artoirel with the fish collection, though. XD

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Hah! He's got to have some kind of quirk.

I do like Artoirel. I thought it was interesting that he started off so antagonistic and then changed his mind and apologised for it.


Also this discussion is reminding me that I still need to do the Scholasticate quests.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I do like Artoirel. I thought it was interesting that he started off so antagonistic and then changed his mind and apologised for it.

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It struck me as a bit sad that he took up his mother's side against Haurchefant when they seemed to have the same kind of outlook on duty and whatnot...he did express regret about not talking to him as much as he could have.

Also, you haven't done the Scholasticate quests? GASP. You get to meet members of a few noble houses and learn a bit of lore...and also key facts about their religion! Granted the comments that it's a lot like Ishgardian Harry Potter aren't wrong, but it does delve into a few things you don't otherwise learn about in the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

Other than Haurchefant's rather harmless but obviously eccentric tendencies, we have temple knights who make a habit of dragging off young women from the Brume to rape them...

And then we have the Ishgardian merchant in Kugane who is not only not put off by the fact that an actor he previously thought was a beautiful lady was really an average guy in lots of make-up, he doubles down on his fascination and passionately declares his continued interest.

I'd have to keep poking around to find more flavor text and sidequests. Ishgard is a colorful place full of many secrets! I feel like most Elezen are dignified stuffed shirts at first glance but are usually secretly (or openly) obsessed with at least one thing to the point of eccentricity.

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The Elezen NPC in the "The Perfect Woman" quest in Kugane is only ever identified as a foreigner to Hingashi through the name "Ijin Merchant". It is not stated that he is Ishgardian.

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

It struck me as a bit sad that he took up his mother's side against Haurchefant when they seemed to have the same kind of outlook on duty and whatnot...he did express regret about not talking to him as much as he could have.

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I agree, though it probably does make sense from his point of view. We don't have a really clear timeline of their childhoods, but the side story with Francel and Haurchefant's first meeting has them aged 6 and 12, which would suggest Haurchefant only came to live at the manor around that age. Artoirel would be 14 and understandably more loyal to his mother than this bratty stranger whose presence upsets her.

And I guess once you've formed those feelings as children, it's harder to step back and build a relationship as adults.

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

Also, you haven't done the Scholasticate quests? GASP.

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...do I have to hand in my Ishgardian Lore Nerd card now?

But seriously, I got caught up leveling battle classes for those stories and also going through MSQ again. I just re-finished Heavensward though, so it's probably a good time to get back to it. (I might have already if they didn't announce Shadowbringers and it made me decide I needed to get my other designated-future-dark-knight character through post-ARR and into Ishgard sooner rather than later...)

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

The Elezen NPC in the "The Perfect Woman" quest in Kugane is only ever identified as a foreigner to Hingashi through the name "Ijin Merchant". It is not stated that he is Ishgardian.

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Ugh, it's hard for me to go back and reread the dialogue if it's already done, but I'm pretty sure he mentions Ishgard specifically at some point. I may need to hunt up some friends who haven't done it and make them tell me what it says...

Iscah, you have to hand in your wand >:(

Is Artoirel the oldest? It came off to me as though Haurchefant was and that his mom died and their father remarried she who became the other two's mother and that she just disliked Haurchefant because it was a reminder of Lord Fortemps 1st wife. Instead of a constant reminder of a moment of lust.

Hmm I wonder if the house that puts on the Valentines day event had to get special papers to do so as I'm sure not every gate guard knows her face or the faces of the others that go with her each year. Along with how much is kept secret. I'm sure the first couple of times they held it in Ishgard people thought they were nuts.

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

Ugh, it's hard for me to go back and reread the dialogue if it's already done, but I'm pretty sure he mentions Ishgard specifically at some point. I may need to hunt up some friends who haven't done it and make them tell me what it says...

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Garland Tools is your friend. :D

Quest script

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Is Artoirel the oldest? It came off to me as though Haurchefant was and that his mom died and their father remarried she who became the other two's mother and that she just disliked Haurchefant because it was a reminder of Lord Fortemps 1st wife. Instead of a constant reminder of a moment of lust.

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It's all (well, mostly) in the lorebook. Artoirel is 30 and Haurchefant is 28. The game doesn't make it clear who's eldest, but it's definitely said in-game that Haurchefant is illegitimate - "the result of the count's sole indiscretion" as the lorebook (and from memory, the game) phrases it - so Artoirel is "officially" Edmont's eldest son regardless of who's actually older.

I'm not sure if there was more information given elsewhere about his mother - the lorebook just says he was raised together with Edmont's other sons, but I think I remember reading somewhere that he was raised by his mother initially? I don't have a source but maybe someone else remembers seeing it.

I think I recall Emmanellain specifying that he was the trueborn second son, which also seems to imply that the order is Artoirel -> Haurchefant -> Emmanellain. I'll see if I can find the quote.

Edit: Here it is https://www.garlandtools.org/db/#quest/67126

I suppose I was looking at the merchant's clothes since he was wearing Ishgardian fashion! :X The Justacorps top is very specifically called Ishgardian in the weaver line quests, because we're sent to Ul'dah to see some nobles and end up finding Emmanellain in that same top and Laniaitte in the female version.

Artoirel is 30, Haurchefant 28, Emmanellain 26. Emmanellain is also the shortest of the three. All that drinking stunted his growth. >.>

As for Haurchefant being raised by his mother, I think early on he was...he did definitely know her, as at one point you can talk to him and he mentions she was devout but extremely frail.

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Originally Posted by Haurchefant

...My dear mother was a woman both beautiful and righteous, yet terribly, terribly frail. Thus, have I ever been fascinated by those blessed with physical fortitude and spiritual conviction in equal measure.

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Beyond that they don't really explain. We do get a glimpse of his childhood in the short stories...it does sound as if he was treated poorly after his arrival, likely by the countess. Given how Haurchefant acts in battles (EX: he doesn't respond to Charibert calling him a noble bastard but Hilda retorts when called a mongrel bitch; does not respond when Guillaime tries to shame him into quitting), he completely ignores any taunting and I assume has some very thick skin when it comes to things people try to say to his face.

On the subject of the circumstances of Haurchefant's birth, I'd only just recently learned that apparently the surname "Greystone" is given to almost all illegitimately-born children in Ishgard. It was lucky that I found this out before getting the new lore book, as it was confirmed the Philiot, the Ironworkers NPC from the Fractal Continuum (Hard) quest, has the full name of Philiot Greystone. Probably would have been confused as to how he was related to Haurchefant lol. Also speaking of Philiot, it still tickles me how similar he looks to my character, especially given that I always kind of played with the idea of one of my character's parents having come from Ishgard. Who's to say maybe Philiot isn't a long-lost cousin of Crimson's?

You know now I want to know if Silver/gray hair is a dominant trait when it comes to Elezen as there is a fair amount of those who are like that and we know that at least with us black hair is.

Also kind of going back onto the topic of secret things do you think anyone was reading banned books?

What would get a book banned in Ishgard? /think

We'd have to ask the Inquisition because they seem to have a lot of books in their book prison that seem to have a lot to do with blood sacrifices and summoning voidsent to gain power...

I don't know for sure but I do remember in the scholastic story there was mention that newer versions of a book didn't have as old of references vs an older copy because they were written before the war started. Or something to that effect. I'm sure if they weren't burned any book that mentions things before the war. I guess they probably wouldn't have cared about any pro dragon books in the Gubal library as they probably assumed the caretaker had left when the rest of her people did and until recently no one else lived in the hinterlands. Even in our world there are books banned by many libraries and I'm sure having anything written by Marx or that put his ideas in a good light during 1950s America would have put suspicion on the owner.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

You know now I want to know if Silver/gray hair is a dominant trait when it comes to Elezen as there is a fair amount of those who are like that and we know that at least with us black hair is.

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Fictional genetics are... persistent, I think. Compare Haldrath's knights with their descendents! And family resemblance within the current families as well - I think Laniaitte is the only character with a noticably different colour scheme to the rest of her family. (And Haurchefant of course - I assume his mother had that hair colour?)

Although the Dzemaels are odd there as well, from what little we know of them - there doesn't seem to be any resemblance between the few family members we've seen.

Though I'm convinced that Grinnaux must be half-Durendaire. Goodness knows how they've managed to keep a completely different skin colour to everyone else in the city? Either they're incredibly inbred, or it's how they decide who gets to be the next count. Would probably explain how Jannequinard manages to remain an acceptable candidate...

For silver hair in particular, I feel like there are quite a lot of Elezen with silver/white hair but also a lot with dark hair. At the point when I was still trying to figure everything out, I'd thought it might be a defining trait of Wildwood vs Duskwight characters, but it seems more blurry than that. I'm not really sure if it means anything.

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

The Justacorps top is very specifically called Ishgardian in the weaver line quests, because we're sent to Ul'dah to see some nobles and end up finding Emmanellain in that same top and Laniaitte in the female version.

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That scene was absolutely hilarious! And with Honoroit in full snarky-polite mode as well.

I'd kind of worked out there must have been something like it coming up, having seen the dress in our list of quest crafting items and the NPC data on Garland Tools for Laniaitte wearing the outfit, but somehow hadn't even thought that we might get Emmanellain as well. So it was pretty great to see them all again. :D