Having a discussion with some players in the FC regarding mages, they’re arguing that RDM is the leader of the pack by a long shot, with BLM behind RDM, and SMN trailing because of “pet issues” and SMN isn’t really neccisary if you have BLM or RDM.
In fact, the comment they said was:
“SMN has sort of pet issues. It’s a bunch of micromanaging pet stuff with not a ton of payoff. Demi-Bahamut is fun but it takes 10 years t get there. Strongest caster is still RDM with BLM being a tight second, and SMN needing some tweaks and fixes before it competes with the other mages.”
And in response to me saying that in a prolonged fight, I think SMN has a higher potential, he said “I’d like to see the logs that support that.”
He very well may be right, but I don’t want him to be, as SMN is really to only DoT class we have, and I sooo badly want it to be good! (EQ2 Warlock main from back in the day..)
Are SMN no longer king?
Mages: SMN vs. BLM vs. RDM
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11-30-2018, 06:01 AMGrafeitMages: SMN vs. BLM vs. RDM
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11-30-2018, 06:28 AMDualgunner
SMN no longer bring everything a BLM and a RDM (damage and utility) can. They're still a stronger caster than RDM, but not by such a huge margin as in 4.2-4.3, where RDM was an active hindrance to the party.
As far as logs to support that...tell him to just go look at current leaderboards? 75th Chaos RDM is 600 DPS behind 75th Chaos SMN. Middy has RDM 500 behind SMN at 75th. About 700 behind SMN on 11S Omega at 75th. 390 behind SMN on M/F. 400 behind on Final Omega.
You can look at different percentile ranges but no...no RDM is absolutely not the king of casters. If anything, SMN still has that crown due to its sheer mobility that neither of its peers can match, so teams don't need to adapt strategies due to having a caster when that caster can move like a ranger when it needs to. Not only that but SMN also retains its raise ability. -
11-30-2018, 08:15 AMGrafeit
Well, thanks! This helps me understand it better. Not really looking for a “Hah, I told you so!” Kind of thing, but just clarification. He wasn’t so far off I guess l, but neither was I.
The mobility I presume comes from RUIN II being instant, and dots being mostly instant, and their pet dealing damage while they are free to run around? So as far as sustainable DPS, they’re probably the leader, whereas the other mages break away in burst DPS? -
11-30-2018, 08:27 AMZerathorSmn is highest burst, blm is highest sustained steady dps. Rdm is somewhere between. Personal dps wise it's blm>smn>rdmQuote:
Originally Posted by Grafeit
Rdm and smn do have raises for the party however, as well as mild raid dps buffs. -
11-30-2018, 12:47 PMGrafeit
BLM is better sustain even though SMN has all of the DoT’s and no real nukes?
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11-30-2018, 01:44 PMReinhardt_AzureheimSMN has plenty of nukes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grafeit
Every ~60s you get 3x Fester via Aetherflow -> full Aethertrail Attunement, allowing Dreadwyrm Trance (instant ruin III and refresh tri disaster plus damage buff while in DWT), ending with Death Flare. After two dreadwyrm trances you have two dreadwyrm aether, allowing you to summon Bahamut, giving you two Akh Morns plus multiple wyrmwaves. It is highly recommended to hold Bahamut until you have Aetherflow ready to use Fester along other ogcds and ruin II to max out the wyrmwave casts.
Fester - 300 pot
Deathflare - 400 pot
Akh Morn - 680 pot
It seems trivial compared to BLM's 540 effective potency on Fire IV and Enochian damage buff at first, but SMN's dots, ruin fillers, pet damage and ogcd bursts add up really fast, especially burst wise. -
11-30-2018, 07:22 PMGrafeit
So I guess what I meant by saying “No Nukes” is that BLM hits harder but slower, whereas because of DoT ticks, SMN doesn’t hit as hard but it’s more frequent.
Also, I didn’t realize that’s how SMN player. In low level dungeons I feel like SMN was all about maintaining DoTs and filling with ruin, so I’ve never played SMN past level 41.
Is SMN honestly THAT micromanage-y when it comes to their pet? I honestly never bothered with managing my pet on SMN or SCH, but again, I’ve never even been close to end game. -
11-30-2018, 07:33 PMNeela
I would say Blm is more frequent than Smn - Smns are very spiky in their dmg graphs cause of their bursts phases which have to built up before. While Blms "just" switch between fire and ice/thunder to regain mp - changing immediately back to burst after mp-ticks in. if you look at the graphs left one is a random high blm right side a smn:
https://s15.directupload.net/images/181130/lpsw4tgt.png
micromanaging wasn't a thing till the last ifrit-nerf - most smn played with sicfrit from the start or after the the petswap opener.
And I got the feeling that hasn't changed much in the mid/casual playerbase.
The difference nowadays is that advanced player could reach equal or even higher numbers with rudas con-micromanaging or perfect timed rotas in several fights/comps.
But to be honest - micromanaging shouldn't be an argument for playing or not playing sch/smn - they both do pretty okay-ish even on full auto-mode. ^^ -
11-30-2018, 08:31 PMNeela
edit: smn below 60/70 is like cruising in a Smart... changing to a Ferrari on 60 and a Koeniggsegg on 70. That’s when u got your „Nukes“ and the cls finally starts to make fun :)
(dbl post by phone <.<) -
11-30-2018, 09:19 PMGrafeitMarry me. Please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Neela
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11-30-2018, 09:24 PMZerathorNah, I meant it how I said the first time. Blm is always chucking out high potency spells nonstop, with 3 gcds every 30 seconds being slightly lower (b3 b4 t3 if not a tc t3) so their damage is extremely steady. Smn however is mostly burst cds. Their bahamut, and dwt, and aetherflow fester weaves. Outside of that, the other 60% of the time they're just keeping dots up and spamming r3 waiting for more cds. This is why on opener you'll see a smn spike over 13k, then rapidly decay to 8k ish, where as a blm goes to 9k, and generally stays there until he messes up or the fight doesn't let him target the boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grafeit
This is why you can die in a fight as a blm, and generally get right back up and keep going, but smn however... if you had bahamut ready and just popped aetherflow for all your bahamut weaves, but then die before using any of it.... not only does your smn die, but you your will to continue the fight does as well. Dying is bad no matter what of course, but you die on the inside if you die as smn. -
12-01-2018, 12:27 AMGrafeit
Haha, I think you misunderstood me. I was correcting what I said, not what you said.
Also...I didn’t consider the drop in DPS if a SMN dies..ouch! I suddenly feel depressed on behalf of every SMN that has happened to. -
12-01-2018, 12:49 AMZerathor
Ah, I did misread that a bit.
Also important to note the types of fight can favor certain casters more. If you need a ranged dps to do a baiting mechanic with extended movement (more than 5 gcds) a smn does much better with this. If a fight allows 100% uptime, blm can carry a ton of damage. If a fight has a lot of breaks and downtime, smn can deal a lot of damage due to having their burst cds available when the boss is targetable, and using the downtime to let cds refresh.
Rdm seems like it's pretty viable about everywhere, especially since their recent damage buff. They won't out damage either typically, but it has strong recovery potential for progression, and it's damage isn't too far behind when done correctly.
Generally though, there's no fight a smn is bad at. A smn can excel in any fight or at least do well. You just have to line up burst with party buffs, and know when to sometimes burn your burst early if a phase change will happen.
Blm is strong, but you have to be very good at it to really reap the benefits of it. Blm will be the most difficult to truly maximize due to its playstyle requiring slidecasting, and very few optimal ogcd weave points. But when you get it there, it feels amazing. You will find unique ways to do fights if it means you get to stand still even a little bit longer, and for some fights it could be taking a lot of risks.
I don't have experience on rdm, but I know a lot of people who do it well. From what they say, it's by far the easiest to pick up and do well with. Cast times are short, simple rotation, but still has room for optimization. Just don't back flip into walls, lol. -
12-01-2018, 01:03 AMNeela
or off cliffs ;p
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12-01-2018, 02:56 AMGrafeit
Haha, I think you misunderstood me. I was correcting what I said, not what you said.
Also...I didn’t consider the drop in DPS if a SMN dies..ouch! I suddenly feel depressed on behalf of every SMN that has happened to. -
12-01-2018, 04:50 AMRaikai
I'm so torn about RDM and BLM...
I'm a very casual player not into serious raiding or anything, but I wonder in Light party content, which fares better in the long run... -
12-01-2018, 06:32 AMKarshan680 is pet potency though, Akh Morn is actually 550 to compare with other spells (80%)Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
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12-01-2018, 09:12 AMZerathorYou may prefer rdm then. From everyone I know that plays it, (even people who don't like playing casters) they've picked it up fast and found it pretty fun. If you're interested in things like palace of the dead ect, rdm is also the king of that kind of content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
I personally enjoy blm, but in various games I've played the turret caster type of role, so i'm used to it. It will feel like a different playstyle than the other roles in this game. In 4 man dungeons, blm will do substantially more damage than rdm due to their level 70 aoe rotation being very potent and not too reliant on cooldowns. You do however need to keep transposing between pulls to keep building your fouls, and be careful to not lose enochian. -
12-01-2018, 12:51 PMGrafeit
I can chime in here! RDM is VERY user friendly. The rotation is simple, and it hits hard and fast.
I am not normally a fan of cast timers, BLM is rough to play for me because timers are too slow, SMN doesn’t hit hard early game with its instant abilities. RDM has Jolt (fast casting ability) followed by veraero/verthunder which are cast instantly due to Dualcast. Eventually you’ll jump in and use your melee Combo, and then jump out and cast again. It’s a very fast caster! -
12-01-2018, 02:31 PMReinhardt_AzureheimInteresting to know. Thanks for the info.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karshan
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12-01-2018, 10:45 PMKaiten_kenbu
Flashy:
1. BLM
2. SMN
3. RDM
Mobility:
1. SMN
2. RDM
3. BLM
Difficulty:
1. BLM (Easiest)
2. RDM
3. SMN (Hardest) -
12-02-2018, 01:12 AMFrizzeIve seen Vermilion Scourge almost cause a wipe because it blinded all the players(players, not characters) in melee range. So RDM does have a little flash to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiten_kenbu
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12-02-2018, 10:07 AMOsmond
Best to worst:
1. SMN's utility is very useful to the group. DoTs..won't lose dps. Contagion great for healers and BLM/RDM for extra DPS. Devotion for extra DPS and healing for the group. Radiant Shield is good for extra dps for melee/ranged on the target.
2. BLM....their burst DPS is great if mastered.
3. RDM Embolden is ok, but horrible for mage DPS and healing DPS. Would be nice if SE makes you keep your mana build even if you ko'd...the same w/ SMN's dreadwyrm aether stacks.
The 3 jobs are good in their own right, but would choose that helps the group the most. -
12-03-2018, 02:45 AMTikeioRDM is easier than BLM (in content that matters).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiten_kenbu
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12-03-2018, 03:28 AMSawamura
All 3 job is good and decent balance.
Only problem remain is who make Party finder. XD -
12-03-2018, 11:58 PMKaiten_kenbuBLM is still the easiest to pick up imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikeio
End game rotation is basically:
Blizz III > Enochian > Blizz IV > Fire III > Fire IV
All other skills are just to increase efficiency of DPS delivery.
No procs to pay attention to, no party buffs to use.
Lay down Ley Lines and be a turret. -
12-04-2018, 01:58 AMShiroeFlashy:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiten_kenbu
1 Rdm
2 Blm
3 Smn
(Blm fire IVare kind boring, foul not much prettier, whlie Rdm moves and animations are great and beautiful like a rose; Smn's ak morn & co are not really great animated and dont occure often)
Mobility:
1 Smn
2 Rdm (close to Smn)
3 blm (by far least mobile all dps)
Difficulty in dungeos, hardest 1st:
1 Smn
2 Rdn
3 Blm
Difficulty in (savage / ultimate) raids & (ex) trials, hardest 1st:
1 Blm (hardest of all dps in real raids)
2 Smn (unneeded difficult with pet management, but Blm still by far the hardset)
3 Rdm (overall not difficult to use, one of the easiest)
Utility:
1 Rdm
2 Smn
3 Blm
Dps, once fully mastered:
1 Blm
2 Smn
3 Rdm
Dps, when still learning the class or learning the fight:
1 smn
2 Rdm (Rdm can even ome out top in new fights or when learning the class)
3 Blm (Blm tend to die more too, till a fight is learnt; .. and new Blm have more trouble keeping uptime than new Smn or new Rdm) -
12-06-2018, 09:05 PMBourne_EndeavorYes, however if you aren't utilizing those skills properly, you're just a bad SMN with zero utility. Meanwhile, RDM borders on brain dead simple at the basic level. It's incredibly easy to pull decent numbers on it while following a bare bones rotation. Naturally, there is more to it as you optimize, but even then, RDM remains relatively easy. BLM... does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiten_kenbu
Of course, this is all subjective. -
12-07-2018, 07:07 AMKaiten_kenbuWell, BLM rotation is very dry and specific.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
BLM has always been about self, nothing else matters. You don't offer anything else to the party or raid besides DPS.
I'm not a min/maxer or worried about DPS screwups, but when a BLM screws up his/her rotation, the DPS drop is noticeable. At least with other casters, they cover up the drop with party buffs.
And the party buffs add another dimension to the other casters rotations, which BLM never has to worry about. -
12-08-2018, 01:52 PMzuzu-bq
BLM is actually stronger than SMN at the moment (specifically post 4.4 changes) given proper uptime by bosses. On top of that, parties running SMN+BLM have been showing on speed competition.
BLM does have to worry about party buffs provided by other players, properly pushing GCDs in a way you fit as much Fire IV you can, holding Thundercloud when you know a buff is coming up and using Firestarter/Cloud to fit in as the last gcd when otherwise a cast wouldn't. While also worring how to Addle, Apoc and Mana Shift without clipping since any GCD delay can cause a damage loss to the job.
As for "covering up with buffs" isn't really a thing, if you screw up and buffs desync you did a screw up just as big if not worse, plus you depend on party members not screwing up themselves. The least organized a party is, the weaker party buffs become. RDM even has selfish embolden timings for when party comp isn't majorly physical or the players just are bad enough (or have comparatively bad gear enough) that the self buff is stronger than the party one.
In the end, no job is all about self, thanks to SE moving a lot of non-damage utility into role actions. Pick up what you have the most fun with unless you're doing speedruns really. Well, the extra raise does shave off a lot of prog time too.