Modification to Weapon Classes and their uniqueness in Battle.

One of the things that people have been asking for is a something to help differentiate each Weapon Class from the others around it. These ideas are to try and add variation between weapons so that Each Weapon Class Does not operate the same as other.

These ideas are collected in a series of steps and groupings.

1. Remove Native AOE from all skills and spells.
2. Any Skill that loses its uniqueness because of the lack of its previous AOE gets rebalanced to be more unique without having AOE.
3. Introduce a toggleable modifier that changes All attacks from Single Hit to AOE. Each Weapon Class doing AOE differently. Essentially this is the same thing that happens for the current Mage Classes but is spread to all Weapon Classes and is not done at the actual Skill Performance but is toggled back and forth before a skill is performed not while selecting it. This could be toggled by pressing L2+R2 together on the gamepad or CTRL and ALT at the same time on the keyboard.

If you need a better example of this, think of Age of Conan's Modified Attack. You can go from being a Single Directional hit, to a wide range hit that hits multiple monsters.

Now that the steps are taken the following types of attacks modifiers are present on all classes.

Physical Weapon Classes: AOE only works on Weapon Skills.

Gladiator:
Attack Mode 1: Slash - An up and down, or down and up attack that only hits one target. Has a higher chance to deal a critical hit, especially from behind the monster.
Attack Mode 2: Circle - A Wide arch attack that hits all monsters directly in front of the Gladiator. Does slightly less damage, but hits more then one monster. 180 Degree Forward Cone, lower chance to deal a critical hit but higher critical hit damage when a critical hit is performed.


Archer:
Mode 1: Single Shot - A single hit arrow strikes a single monster. Uses one arrow, and has a chance to nock the next arrow faster reducing the stamina cost of the next hit.
Mode 2: Multi Shot - 5 arrows are fired into the sky and rain down on all the monsters in a circle area around the main target. Is slow and costs more stamina then a normal hit but if only one monster is in range all the arrows hit him for a lower damage per arrow over 2 hits. (Example: 100 dmg +100 dmg +75 dmg +50 dmg +25 dmg = 350 Damage)

Pugilist:
Mode 1: Punch - A Single target hit that has a low chance to stun a monster.
Mode 2: Spin Kick - A Circle attack that hits all monsters around the Pugilist. 360 degree hit, the closer to the front of the Pugilist the monster is the more damage they take. Requires much more stamina then normal but has a low chance to push the monster back and force an enmity recheck.

Marauder:
Mode 1: Crush - A Diagonal hit that hits one target and deals more damage if you have maintained your balance in one spot. Has a higher chance to cause a stun or knock back if you have been in one spot for more then 15 seconds.
Mode 2: Swipe - A ravaging attack that hits everyone around the Marauder. Deals more damage if you have maintained your balance in one spot. 360 Degree attack costs more stamina to perform but the longer you are in one spot the more damage it performs.

Lancer
Mode 1: Poke - A Quick single hit has a chance to create a weakness in a enemies armor.
Mode 2: Pierce - A slow rough hit that hits all monsters in a straight line. 30 Degree forward cone. Can hit up to 3 monsters in a row but deals more damage the closer they are together.


Magic Class: AOE Only works on Spells.
Thaumaturge:
Mode 1: Chaos - A Single cast that hits one monster. Damage over time spells do more damage/healing. Costs normal MP. Grants TP it modifies elemental weakness.
Mode 2: Cone - A magical blast hitting everyone forward of the caster.

Conjurer:
Mode 1: Balance - A Single Cast that hits one target and deals more Direct Damage and costs normal MP. Grants TP if elemental Damage.
Mode 2: Surround - A Magical blast hitting everyone around a central point. Cost 3x MP but positive effect spells last longer.




Again these are just ideas.

maby I am reading what you mean completely wrong but doesn't the current battle system do exactly what you said.

All the classes have aoe version of normal attacks, and solo versions.

Mages have a button to switch between Aoe/single targer modes.

Lnc has attacks that hit all mobs in a line.

Archer has aoe and single target attacks.

Pug has single target, line, and aoe attacks

Glad has attacks of all dmg types as well as circular attacks

Mrd has single target normal attacks and half circle normal attacks.

This would be a forced toggle that affected All skills/spells. Not based on certain skills being AOE natively.

In all honesty, it has been the general theme of most RPGs that magic can do area attacks much easier than melee. My biggest pet peeve is that Mages get AoE for no cost and AoE is not available on melee classes. My suggestion would be to make all magic single target, balance that from there, then add AoE at 3x MP cost and balance that (should be pretty balanced with the 3x MP cost). This lets other character do physical attacks, and then if they want to hit an area, use spells.

you would regret making magic cost more mp if you went to any higher level group and did nm's. the mages already have enough problems trying to help a party and not run out of mp. this is only doiin the nm's we have now. i'd hate to see it later on in game. i think aoe is fine as it is. these abilities are meant for single or aoe attacks and not both.

I really like the idea of turning on/off AOE for any weapon skill. I also really like the idea of having 2 modes for each class including DoM. Also for Archer mode 2 and Lancer mode 1 AGI doesn't exist in FFXIV and please specify if "hits all mobs around the character" is cone or 360 degree.

For quick reference: STR/VIT/DEX INT/MND/PIE

The only thing I'm skeptical over is having actions affected by a stat based on the mode you are in. I don't think this is necessary to add and let's say I wanted to do more damage/stick a debuff on more effectively with a certain attack or spell on a single target and mode was more ideal stat wise. This forces me to be in AOE mode with the intention of a singe target action.

You can easily argue you can simply go to single target mode and should be fine or just position yourself better for AOE, but it just seems complicated when it doesn't need to be and there is the possibility of SE making the game to where "mode 2" stats are required to overcome an obstacle but AOE is a serious issue (however I would trust that SE would try to avoid this and maybe making the game too easy in this sense because either mode will overcome the obstacle rather than forcing players to make/experiment with the decision whether easy or hard). Also, I think healing should be more effective as single target than AOEing since there is no disadvantage whatsoever to AOE heals when compared to single target heals.

Adding more damage or accuracy is OK to singe target mode, but IMO "mode 2" either should have no stat boosts or even maybe a better idea is giving bonuses to damage, accuracy, and defense (heals/buffs) ALL 3 at same time to single target mode.

Love the overall idea though.

I re-worded some of them and removed the stat modifiers.

I was half asleep when I first wrote them.

Tweaked the DOM's again...

some weaponskills are meant to be single target because of heavy damage, well not in FFXIV, but almost all "final" WS(cap went by like 5x) in FFXI were single target. About the modes, when i look at it, i get the idea it looks like a skill u would use to make ur attack be better for a short time rather than actual mode.

I think it would be nice if they all had 1 mode but uses a skill that would give them different type of style(Frontal cone, Line, 360 etc) for a certain amount of duration.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

some weaponskills are meant to be single target because of heavy damage, well not in FFXIV, but almost all "final" WS(cap went by like 5x) in FFXI were single target. About the modes, when i look at it, i get the idea it looks like a skill u would use to make ur attack be better for a short time rather than actual mode.

I think it would be nice if they all had 1 mode but uses a skill that would give them different type of style(Frontal cone, Line, 360 etc) for a certain amount of duration.

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No offense. But Last I checked we are not playing FFXI. And implementing it as just a buff would not appease most people.

i think this would remove quite a bit of brain work from battle, whilst an interesting concept, being able to make any attack AOE removes the urgency of building up your TP to use an AOE skill to turn the tide of battle.

It's fine with DoM because of the nature of their magic, and the range generally meaning that if they AOE constantly, they'll actually be putting people at risk, and therefore have to consider carefully first.

It also eliminates the uniqueness of playing the different melee classes entirely, marauder standing still get an aoe buff to all of their skills, gladiator get mostly single target skills with a few AOE effects on them, lancer strikes the nearby enemies to their target, or all the targets in the way of the target their attack is intended for, archer is accurate single target damage, but has the ability to shower arrows if need be, pugilist can decimate targets fast enough to not need to AOE, but still have the odd skill that lets them do so.

currently, the uniqueness of identity is not crippled by how the classes play, but by how you look. Currently there isn't enough variation in armour equivalents for the different classes. It's getting better sure, but there's still only a handful of pieces of gear that really works well enough to be used by someone taking their defences seriously

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Originally Posted by TessaJalloh

i think this would remove quite a bit of brain work from battle, whilst an interesting concept, being able to make any attack AOE removes the urgency of building up your TP to use an AOE skill to turn the tide of battle.

It's fine with DoM because of the nature of their magic, and the range generally meaning that if they AOE constantly, they'll actually be putting people at risk, and therefore have to consider carefully first.

It also eliminates the uniqueness of playing the different melee classes entirely, marauder standing still get an aoe buff to all of their skills, gladiator get mostly single target skills with a few AOE effects on them, lancer strikes the nearby enemies to their target, or all the targets in the way of the target their attack is intended for, archer is accurate single target damage, but has the ability to shower arrows if need be, pugilist can decimate targets fast enough to not need to AOE, but still have the odd skill that lets them do so.

currently, the uniqueness of identity is not crippled by how the classes play, but by how you look. Currently there isn't enough variation in armour equivalents for the different classes. It's getting better sure, but there's still only a handful of pieces of gear that really works well enough to be used by someone taking their defences seriously

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There is no disadvantage to AOEing heals of buffs though.

This actually gives class uniqueness because there is no difference except damage type (Slashing, Piercing, Blunt, Projectile) and regular attacks if you equip the same exact actions. With this there will at least be differences in the way that you attack.

Also, other than MRD (stance effect only) you can equip any of those action on any class for the same effect. You can even shower arrows on enemies with an AXE. XD

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

This actually gives class uniqueness because there is no difference except damage type

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Self destructive arguement. I'm not sure i follow your definition of unique. :/

Forgive me, I'm just not following your OP...

First off, are you calling the different Disciplines "Weapon Classes" now? That's pretty confusing...why not just call them Disciplines like S-E does? I am aware of the thread you have quoted in your sig, I'm really asking, why change the name?

Also, are you proposing the way to add uniqueness to the disciplines is to make all their skills...more like each other? By adding an AoE toggle, and revamping existing skills (mainly MRD), you realize all you're really accomplishing is removing some of the uniqueness we currently have? How does my PUGs Concussive Blow going AoE differ from an ARCs Puncture going AoE? As Xatsh said, every class has at least one skill that can AoE, I don't see why they'd all need to.

No offense, but your suggestion is a little off base. The problem with class uniqueness isn't centered on or even in the same vicinity as whether or not our skills can toggle an AoE version.

I'd rather see the AoE toggle from DoM removed, and have single-target and AoE capability realized through different abilities. It seems there are too many abilities that do the same thing already, taking another differentiator away would seem to do more harm then good.

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Originally Posted by TessaJalloh

Self destructive arguement. I'm not sure i follow your definition of unique. :/

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We probably have the view over what is the definition to unique so I'm gonna show how this is different since you pretty much didn't want to think about this way.

Let's say I leveled/ranked up GLA/LNC/PGL to 20. Now I have all the actions for all 3 of those up to 20. What is the difference among these 3 classes if I use the exact same skills? Let's say my action setup goes something like this.

Action bar (just gonna use 1 for example even though this is rank 20 or you can view this as let's say rank 10 on any class):

1. Primary Regular Attack (basic regular attack, does damage based on weapon equipped)
2. Secondary Regular Attack (has an additional effect like Bind for LNC with additional stamina cost, effect varies between all classes, does damage based on weapon equipped)
3. Doomspike (2000+ TP that hits all enemies between you and your target)
4. Ferocity (increases attack power for your next attack)
5. Still Precision (increases accuracy for small duration of time)
6. Featherfoot (increases evasion until you dodge an attack)
7. Seismic Shock (1000 TP, 10 MP deals earth damage to all enemies around the target, does not affect flying targets)
8. Cure (self explanatory)
9. Provoke (self explanatory)
10. Taunt (self explanatory)

Now I can use all these skills as GLA/LNC/PGL or any other class. They all have the same effect no matter which class uses it. So there is no difference here. Now if I can AOE them or not on all classes there is no difference either. However if there is different effects added to AOEs for each class then there is (or if SE added different effects to all TP attacks BASED ON CLASS which is currently not present). This is similar to Mages since THM can cast AOE spells in a long range, cone and CON can cast AOE spells in a short range, 360 degree area.

Now Doomspike (LNC action) hits every target in a line between you and your target. I ask you what is the difference if I use this on GLA or PGL form LNC. It still hits all mobs between you and the target.

Now Seismic Shock (PGL action) hits every enemy (360 degree) around you. The same applies to this attack as above if I use it on LNC or GLA as opposed to PGL. There is no difference other than damage. Which is based on the mobs weakness to damage types. These damage types are called Slashing, Piercing, Blunt, Projectile, and Elemental.

The only difference between classes are the damage types and the Secondary Regular Attacks, because you can use every action on every class and the same thing occurs.

Would it make a difference if we add the ability to turn AOE on/off? No.

Would it make a difference if we add an effect (like secondary regular attack) to every damaging action you perform? Yes.

Would it make a difference if we add the ability to turn AOE on/off and then make AOEs different for each class? Yes.

Is there a difference now? Very little.

Can there be a difference? Up to you.

Still think there is a difference or there are enough differences among classes (based on your opinion)? If yes to either of those then please read my post on this link.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...zations/page10

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

I'd rather see the AoE toggle from DoM removed, and have single-target and AoE capability realized through different abilities. It seems there are too many abilities that do the same thing already, taking another differentiator away would seem to do more harm then good.

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If this happens then there won't be any differences between CON and THM other than extremely minute differences which will have no effect on which class you other than which actions you would rather have or would rather have first if you rank both. Now if both were at rank 50 then this difference disappears.

Minute differences are: HP and MP

I think you're missing the fact that using these skills out of their native class does reduce the skills effectiveness, and does remove some of the bonuses associated with them, magic being the most prevelant, as you cannot aoe on a DoW using magic.

Even with extra affinity, the effectiveness is still reduced, which means you choose the skills you find useful to you, and make yourself unique, a unique gameplay style. Are there thousands of others who had the same ideas as you as to what skills to use? probably, it doesn't take much to figure out what works.

Like i said, you've structured this well, but i wonder if you've actually checked on how the skills work already for yourself before coming to these conclusions, or went off of what someone else told you.

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Originally Posted by TessaJalloh

I think you're missing the fact that using these skills out of their native class does reduce the skills effectiveness, and does remove some of the bonuses associated with them, magic being the most prevelant, as you cannot aoe on a DoW using magic.

Even with extra affinity, the effectiveness is still reduced, which means you choose the skills you find useful to you, and make yourself unique, a unique gameplay style. Are there thousands of others who had the same ideas as you as to what skills to use? probably, it doesn't take much to figure out what works.

Like i said, you've structured this well, but i wonder if you've actually checked on how the skills work already for yourself before coming to these conclusions, or went off of what someone else told you.

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Bold = Reasoning
Do you not see it?

You obviously didn't read my link in my previous post so I'll put it here. There isn't any reduced effectiveness with same stats. The only penalty is cool down timers among actions, HP and MP, and being able to AOE or which AOE type. Hell there is hardly any differences between classes really. Please keep in mind that my post is TRUE. I wouldn't be working for something if it wasn't a concern or something that isn't beneficial.

This is the post i made from my link on another thread:

My biggest issue is that any class can do EVERYTHING.

Mr_Gyactus referred THM as being able to Heal, DPS, Debuff, however THM can do so much more than just this because there are not heavy penalty restrictions from cross classing abilities and giving titles, jobs would enhance this greatly and give more customization than we already have so arguing that they like having a sandbox isn't valid because it would still exist but WITH MORE OPTIONS ADDED TO IT.

For example I can do the exact same thing as CON magic wise if I equip the exact same actions. So what is the difference in me using THM or CON? The only difference is which AOE style I prefer and that's not a bid deal at all and the only reason I would even consider leveling both or 1 over the other is which actions I prefer which if I level both which I use comes down to which AOE I prefer (NOT MUCH CUSTOMIZATION NOW IS THERE?).

Now also I can equip melee DPS skills on THM as well such as Doomspike from LNC. Now my highest damage output with Doomspike as LNC while using 2 attack buffs and 2 accuracy buffs at 3000 TP is 600 damage solo. Now as THM with the exact same actions equipped, same gear, same attributes my highest damage using Doomspike is also 600 damage with 3000 TP. So the exact same damage and I can attack form range with Doomspike as THM (DOES THIS LOOK LIKE CUSTOMIZATION TO YOU BY ONLY DIFFERENTIATING WHICH WEAPON I PREFER?).

Now lastly we can move on to THM tank role. Let's compare to GLA since people see this as the tank role. Well both get a shield, can use the same actions shield or not. Have the exact same effectiveness on all actions including all enmity, damage mitigation, and self-curing effectiveness. The only differences between these two are which weapon do I prefer and do I prefer twice as much HP or being able to AOE spells. Now there is a much bigger difference here than my two previous examples ONLY because of the HP difference which makes tanking essentially twice as difficult however is just as effective because they take a very similar amount of damage with the same actions equipped and being able to cast cure just slightly faster makes up for taking just slightly more damage. The oonly thing that would prevent THM from tanking over a GLA is if the THM gets "1 shot" which is highly more likely because of the HP difference and that is it. Now let's compare being able to AOE spells which GLA can't do. As THM I can AOE Paralyze/Sleep/Absorb ATK/ Absord DEF in a behest and aggro every single mob and them spam cures on myself and tank every single mob. I can also use Wardrum as THM since I can equip a shield. Now if I have just as many people curing me as THM as people would be curing a GLA tanking this many mobs at once time then I will be fine especially after having ATK and DEF weakened on ALL mobs and mine increased as where as GLA could only do this on 1 mob (SO IS THERE STILL A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN CUSTOMIZATION BETWEEN WHICH WEAPON YOU USE AND THE OPTION OF HP OR AOEING SPELLS?).

This is my biggest issue with the game ATM because I can do everything as every class in the same way with the same effectiveness.

Edit: Another thought is that maybe the Title System can be worked to allow every class to perform every role just not the exact same way so there is a reason to use one class over the other based on player preference.

If using melee attacks on a mage at a distance does the same damage then I don't see your point at all comparing melee class to melee class.

Also, melee classes can cure for the same amount of HP with cures with the exact same stats. What is the difference? That's right! AOE!

Granted all of these changes proposed in this thread DOES NOT FIX THIS ISSUE. Please go to the first link in my signature for this. This thread simply makes a difference between classes. It is not a HUGE IMPACT, but it certainly helps.

incorrect. The stats tally differently for the different classes, resulting in different effects. You may come somewhat close, however, you will always find huge differences as a result of what can and can't be used.

Your THM tank example is most easily addressed, as a gladiator i can tell you right now that your effectiveness as a tank is not based around what skills you'll have compared to a GLA, sure you can aoe heal, and you can certainly heal for more than the GLA, however, your base defense will be lower due to not being able to wear certain types of wargear on a DoM, your shield effieciency will be crippled, because you as a DoM cannot use the heavier shields that i can, which natively provide a higher block chance when i defend myself with them.

Moreover, your whole arguement is based around 'the same stats'. No-one with a brain will be using 'the same stats' on all of their classes, there are traits you can purchase with guild marks to convert stats into other stats for this reason. A Gladiator wants high strength for their shield defenses, or they'll get rolled on.

A THM however would be a fool to drop the same amount of points into STR, how could they possibly perform their strongest aspect, magic casting, if they haven't got their stats set toward that? Classes are as unique as you make them, merging everything into being equal in every aspect aside from different effects on their flavour of AOE would just further your arguement that everyone can do the same job. An arguement that is flawed from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by TessaJalloh

incorrect. The stats tally differently for the different classes, resulting in different effects. You may come somewhat close, however, you will always find huge differences as a result of what can and can't be used.

Your THM tank example is most easily addressed, as a gladiator i can tell you right now that your effectiveness as a tank is not based around what skills you'll have compared to a GLA, sure you can aoe heal, and you can certainly heal for more than the GLA, however, your base defense will be lower due to not being able to wear certain types of wargear on a DoM, your shield effieciency will be crippled, because you as a DoM cannot use the heavier shields that i can, which natively provide a higher block chance when i defend myself with them.

Moreover, your whole arguement is based around 'the same stats'. No-one with a brain will be using 'the same stats' on all of their classes, there are traits you can purchase with guild marks to convert stats into other stats for this reason. A Gladiator wants high strength for their shield defenses, or they'll get rolled on.

A THM however would be a fool to drop the same amount of points into STR, how could they possibly perform their strongest aspect, magic casting, if they haven't got their stats set toward that? Classes are as unique as you make them, merging everything into being equal in every aspect aside from different effects on their flavour of AOE would just further your arguement that everyone can do the same job. An arguement that is flawed from the beginning.

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Where is the huge difference in doing 600 damage on LNC and THM and as for what can and can't be used the only thing I've encountered so far is LNC having Speed Surge and Life Surge exclusives. If stats tally differently or w/e then where is the difference because I Cure the same as DoW as DoM and I deal the same melee damage as DoM as Dow.

This is why I said tanking on mage was the biggest difference. I know I can't get as much defense but being able to cure myself a bit faster makes up for it. Defense doesn't have a huge mitigation on damage from what I've seen, but then again I have the absolute highest possible defense a THM can from gear and I use a lot of VIT. As for shields that's all part of tactics. I actually prefer a smaller shield because the guard rate is much longer. Combined with the GLA 20 trait that increases guard rate by +50% duration I can use Aegis Boon back to back with Outmaneuver. I can use Aegis Boon then literally use Outmaneuver as soon as Aegis Boon wears off. Then when Outmaneuver wears off there is a 5 second cool down before I can use Aegis Boon AGAIN. This is when equipping a targe shield. I personally would use it even on GLA.

Now as for the "same stats" issue you seem to be arguing for a mage using STR or DEX as well. If I were just starting out in this game I would think the same thing at first. That person is stupid, but let's give a very good example of how this is actually better than even a DoW.

I can use Doompsike on THM for the same exact damage as LNC. How is there a disadvantage to being able to hit just as hard as a melee class as a mage. Now I can also AOE cures at the same time. It doesn't matter how the LNC fills his stats because I can copy whatever the LNC uses on THM and do the exact same damage and cure the exact same amount while being able to AOE while the LNC can't. VERY BAD.

Now let's look at Doomspike a little deeper. Doomspike works on a line based attack that hits more enemies between the target. Guess what? I can use this on THM at a range for the same damage. This means I can fit more mobs between me and the target because the LNC is melee and I'm ranged.

How is this better?

If you give all classes aoe standard attacks, there goes the uniqueness you were speaking about, now they are all the same... bad idea.

Lancer has a standard attack purchased with guild marks that hits monsters between you and your target
Marauder has a standard attack purchased with guild marks that hits enemies in a cone before you

The above are examples of why the classes are unique as they are.

Don't fix what aint broken.

All classes with AoE? All set thanks.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

If you give all classes aoe standard attacks, there goes the uniqueness you were speaking about, now they are all the same... bad idea.

Lancer has a standard attack purchased with guild marks that hits monsters between you and your target
Marauder has a standard attack purchased with guild marks that hits enemies in a cone before you

The above are examples of why the classes are unique as they are.

Don't fix what aint broken.

All classes with AoE? All set thanks.

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All of the AOE's operate differently. Not all are just "Hit everyone in a circle" like Conjurer.