Hi, i think a discussion on the limitations recast timers present to weapon skills would be interesting.
just to clarify im mainly talking about the big hitting weapons skills which have the long recast timers... if that isnt obvious.
I think that TP should be the limiting factor for the use of weapon skills.. and fundamentally it is supposed to be.. otherwise what good is the whole TP system..
and then we have recast timers on top of that that seem like a needless extra for the purposes of limiting weapon skills.
in the old days finding ways to get TP more efficiently was one of the factors to what made you a better DD, with recast timers it doesnt matter how much TP you can build- your constantly banging into the brick wall of recast timers
oh you have 3k TP?... thats too bad your best WS is on timer, sorry.
to clarify my point.. why have the TP system in place if your going to limit weapon skills with recast timers?... if the devs think weapons skills would be too rife then why not just lower TP gain?
or even have recast timers but no TP.. and not have a scenario where one seems to conflict with the other- allthough i think the TP system is better and dont really like this suggestion.. but my point is clear.
you can work out your potential damage within a time frame- because of recast timers.. for example doomspike has a recast timer of 1 minute- so you can only use it 15 times in a 15 minute time frame (discounting keen flurry).. TP is allmost irrelevant... this doesnt seem like a good system to me.
recast timers on weapon skills make gameplay feel clunky and are an annoyance. thats how i feel anyway.
Recast timers of weaponskills
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02-21-2012, 05:09 PMRogueRecast timers of weaponskills
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02-21-2012, 05:24 PMChardrizard
what are you killing that you are not constantly using your TP... do you not use combo ever?
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02-21-2012, 05:25 PMAvraym
I agree. At the moment the system is pretty much Attack, Attack, Buff, Buff, Lvl 50 Skill Combo, Attack , Attack, filler combo, Attack, attack, buff, buff, level 50 skill combo.
It seems to be more about fitting skills in between the longer timer than any form of skill rotation.
Skill order / TP Generation should be more refined in my opinion.
Hopefully jobs will have skills with procs to make skill order more relevant. (I.E. "Skill B" has a chance to make reset your cooldown on "Skill A" ect)
I hope jobs bring a greater degree of difficulty in play than classes. -
02-21-2012, 05:35 PMRoguenot sure how this refers to my post?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
sure i use combos.. and im constantly finding i cant use the "finisher" weapon skill because its on timer..
my point is why not ditch the timers and lower TP gain..
maybe i wasnt clear enough? -
02-21-2012, 05:41 PMKiriA500How would lowering TP gain fix things? The first WS is the only one that uses TP. You don't have to do a combo. You can just do a WS for spike damage while you wait for a recast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
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02-21-2012, 09:47 PMColino
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but for most classes if you're sitting on 3k TP you're doing it wrong.
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02-22-2012, 12:19 AMShift
This is where Lancer's Keen Flurry ability helps, it halves the next WS timer. Use it for those long recast abilities on other classes and fill in with lesser combos / buffs / single WS.
Ex.
Keen Flurry -> Quick Nock (Archer)
Keen Flurry -> Riot Blade (Gladiator) -
02-22-2012, 01:12 AMyukikaze_yanagi
As much i would spam howling fist, that would be broken at best. If they adjust the recast timer, they should adjust the damage too.
"OMG where is my big number ?"" -
02-22-2012, 01:21 AMCoglin
10,000 TP would't be enough to keep me from using it all. I always have an ability up that can use 1k TP.
Just because I have 1-3 at the most skills still on recast, I have more that are not.
TP is ALWAYS my limiting factor, never the timers.
I disagree 100% with the OP -
02-22-2012, 02:00 AMRogue
I have a feeling you people arent thinking along the same lines as i am..
All im saying is the game would be more revolved around skill and gear if they got away from the recast timers.. (eg- finding ways to build TP faster through skill or different gear)
recast timers seem like a quick fix to limiting WS output.
i realise it would mean ppl would use the high tier WS's alot more... so some suggestions might be lower TP gain or increase monster HP.. either way the game would be more fluid.
im not saying take away recast timers and leave everything as-is.. im saying there has to be a better system not revolved around recast timers but more on TP.. which is the whole point of having the TP system i think. -
02-22-2012, 02:17 AMJinko
So should mages also be allowed no recast timers ? and be dependant on mana only ?
I'm kind of sitting on the fence with this, because I see your point and even if they did remove recast timers there is always enmity keeping us in check.
It would be hard for any balance to exist with no recast timer though.
Of course if they went the WoW route which is global cooldowns across multiple skills with 1 second recast times. -
02-22-2012, 02:19 AMRogueyeh sure why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinko
isnt it a bad thing to run out of mana?
infact i would consider the proper use of mana a skill
you could nuke like crazy but you would take hate and/or run out of MP.. -
02-22-2012, 02:30 AMRogueThe ballance is the eyes and ears of the player...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinko
I think if it was easyer for a tank to lose hate from someone using too many nukes/WS it would make things much more interesting.
off the top of my head it would make tanks up their game- and it would make DD have to concentrate on what their actually doing (eg take note of when the tank last used provoke) - recast timers allmost prevent this from happening alltogether. -
02-22-2012, 05:17 AMtachikoma
TP gain is automatic there is ZERO skill in obtaining TP right now especially w/o any haste ability and haste type gear. The skill ceiling in FFXIV right now revolves around maximizing your cooldowns on WS's and buffs as well as the positioning factor in timing your combo's.
I personally find keeping everything on cooldown a real challenge if we think about the skillchains they have already stated are going to be added in the future then the current system is more then complex enough to distinguish the good players from the bad.
Edit: as a more direct response to the OP, the game is casual enough as is are you asking them to make it even more easy with less things to manage in combat? You are asking for TP to be the only limiting factor to ws's and yet TP is gained without any skill management so how is this improving combat other then simplifying it. -
02-22-2012, 05:43 AMRogueQuote:
Originally Posted by tachikoma
please read previous postsQuote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
and i hardly consider keeping abilites off timer any type of skill -
04-07-2012, 12:31 AMRogue
i was playing again and i was reminded of this thread,
i was tanking on warrior and i was having to run around the mob to use Godsbane and whirlwind.. but only because the combo i wanted to use (steel cyclone of course) was on timer.
somebody on vent said to be me "@#'# you moved the mob and i screwed up my combo".. i appologised and explained that i moved to do my own combos... i would have done steel cyclone but it was on timer.. and then the mob wouldnt have moved.
obviously because when im tanking- the mob allways wants to face me, so when i go to do my godsbane combo i have to hit the mob on its side and hence the mob changes direction... and i dunno but doing this feels kind of odd.. it feels like something i shouldnt be able to do. infact it would be interesting to know if this was intended by the devs.
i think i should be able to do whichever combo i like IF i have the TP of course.. i mean.. im going to do a combo anyway right!!! its just that with the recasts its not the combo i actually want to do. If im tanking let me do my steel cyclone combo!
i cant use the combo that best fits the situation. -
04-07-2012, 12:39 AMsyntaxlies
if they took recast timers away then they would have to balance all attacks=to keep some sort of balance.
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04-07-2012, 12:42 AMsyntaxliesits only a 30second timer and your tanking, its prob the most op skill in the game. If your tanking don't worry about using all the combos, or learn how to start another combo while enemy is readying a skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
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04-07-2012, 12:44 AMRogueok im not disagreeing but what exactly might it imballance?Quote:
Originally Posted by syntaxlies
and like i said there is allmost allways a combo off timer... it just not allways the combo i actually want to use. so i dont think there would be a huge difference in damage output. if that is one of the imballances your thinking of.
i do use my other combos when the mob is "busy" or usually i will fail the combo, but usually the mob moves around a little regardless. and it just doesnt feel right anyway.
sorry i really dont think the would be a huge problem with no recasts. -
04-07-2012, 12:47 AMsyntaxliesquick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock,quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock,quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick kock,quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock,quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock,quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock,quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick kock,quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock quick nock, quick nock, quick nock,quick nock,Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
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04-07-2012, 01:01 AMRoguethere might be a few tweaks here and there, if quick nock is a problem then increase tp cost to 2k (change combo req) or something, it is not rocket science.Quote:
Originally Posted by syntaxlies
the point is TP should be the limiting factor.
ugh, im done with this thread ive said what i wanted to. -
04-07-2012, 02:23 AMDragon
Sure, abolish the timers (despite the fact that timers for anything powerful has been part of almost every genre alike, just in different manners), then TP gain will have to be severely limited as anything past the first WS used to set up a combo is free TP, and they may as well make each ability in a combo cost TP. Then they may as well bring back the stamina system and abolish the current auto-attack system that people cried so much about, while increasing enemy-mob HP.
I'm all for it. -
04-07-2012, 02:32 AMTonkrawould be awful to see me spaming my special lv 50 WS... wouldnt be any special anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
well i as a drg i think the re-use is almost fine..
deleting the re-use timer of doomspike for example would make me overpowered.. no they would low the damage drasticly..
and lowering tp gain would mean i have to wait MUCH more to perform my first WS... that would really suck.. because black mages dont need to wait , they can perform their damageing attacks much earlier..
seriously its really good like it is.. i have always to do something as a drg.
i think you really doing somethin wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon
seriously it got WAY on my nerves to click just a simple stupid low damage auto attack every 2 secs... i cant see the point of that.. its just ennoying *weep* weeeep*
you want to have an old alpha system back... great, really great.. get over it that we dont want to battle just a simple mob for an hour, like in FFXI. i dont think that the mobs are dieing too fast
the old system was and IS AWFUL.. thats why people left the game. now they are coming back and you want them to implement the old awful system. great. -
04-07-2012, 02:40 AMDragonI agree here with this... on Warrior or Bard, I'm always doing something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
Ever played Age of Conan, or even City of Heroes/Villains? I know I didn't even so much as allude to it in my previous post, but that's what I'd rather see in terms of shafting the auto-attack system (in AoC, you had directional-attacks; in CoX, you could select a single ability to be used each time it was readied). Hell, I even like how BnS's own battle system works.Quote:
seriously it got WAY on my nerves to click just a simple stupid low damage auto attack every 2 secs... i cant see the point of that.. its just ennoying *weep* weeeep*