Before you immediately shoot down this idea give me a moment to explain myself. I've been struggling with maintaining investment and interest in the game for a long time and I've brainstormed ideas with friends and such about my own hypothetical ways to fix that. I've had a lot of ideas, some of which I'll briefly touch on here, but a common problem is simply one of "This idea will make some people happy but upset others." Pleasing large numbers of people in a game like this is a difficult balancing act, especially when you start talking about reworking chunks of the game. You're inevitably going to upset people. Blue mage gave me an epiphany that made me realize the solution might not be as difficult or impossible as I previously thought.
I've been playing since shortly after 2.0, and even as far back as midway through Heavensward I was starting to feel burned out. Stormblood got me back into things but ultimately I ended up giving up again once the treadmill of content started up again. For me the endless grind of getting new gear in order to do new content to get new gear had gotten very old and I found myself distancing myself from the game. This is a sentiment I've heard echoed from a lot of people I know who are themselves leaving the game.
I've put forward ideas in private. Ways to reingage players in the long term. Most of them are focused around reworking the gear and ability system. Bringing back things like meaningful builds and subclassing, skill trees, passive abilities, and gear that doesn't become obsolete. Maybe is has things like unique effects attached to them rather than larger numbers so that you could use them based on your build. Cutting back on skill bloat by limiting how many skills you can have active, giving you free respec options so you can try a variety of builds, etc.
Granted, this is a very basic idea. It's much easier to say ideas than to actually make them functional. I recognize why the system is at it is, too. It's much, much simpler to balance things when there is less variety to it. It's also much more accessible to a new player when your options are more limited. And, heck, some people don't WANT to have a lot of choice for any number of reasons. That's ok too. There is nothing wrong with that. Even that is ignoring that the game is a little too established at this point to go through a major rework of its systems. Previously I had suggested a sort of prestiege mode. Instead of increasing a level cap you might get a new tier of levels with a reworked system in place. That way new content going forward could use that but if you went back to old content you'd use the old system. On top of that I thought maybe to preserve accessibility there would be limits in the way a new skill system or job subclass system worked. All of this had issues however, and all of it bumped into the problem of not being able to make everyone happy.
Idea: Why not make a solo version of every class?
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11-18-2018, 05:10 PMHyren575Idea: Why not make a solo version of every class?
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11-18-2018, 05:11 PMHyren575
But now we have Blue Mage. This is a class that has been stated directly to be largly focused on solo play. To top it off it uses a way of getting, using, and acquiring skills that is radically different from anything else in the game. That's when it hit me. Blue Mage can be so unique and different because it doesn't have to be balanced against other content. It only has to be balanced against ITSELF. If it wants to have unique solo gear, crazy new skills, an elemental weakness system, or whatever else there is no problem in doing so because instead of having to focus on how this class works in a group you are instead only required to be concerned if it works in it's own solo sphere of influence.
Think about it. We already have seperate PVP actions for classes. Why not implement a "Solo mode" for each class. I'm not suggesting a one size fits all solution. Why not give each class a unique method of acquiring or using skills. New and interesting mechanics based around solo play. Heck, bring in skill trees, passive abilities, or SUBCLASSING. Give them unique gear that has game changing effects. Go nuts! The only caveat is you're playing in solo mode. You're not effecting the balance of the entire game, you're only concerned about how Red Mage or Warrior in solo mode works against itself. Pick your favorite class, do the content you want, feel like you're making meaningful choices in your character planning. All without removing the current aspects of the game other people enjoy.
By splitting these two things up you no longer are required to shackle one aspect of gameplay to the other. People who want unique classes and meaingful builds can do so. People who want to chase the next level of gear with other people can do so. Someone who wants to play solo will be able to while someone who wants to be in a group can do the same. All without fundamentally removing or changing any built in mechanics.
Realistically I don't actually expect much. I'm excited about this idea but I don't imagine it will ever be a reality. Still, I'm sharing it here. Blue Mage opened the doors to this concept. I started thinking "Blue Mage is interesting, but what if I want to have a good solo experience with... red mage?" What if someone isn't interested in blue mage? What if someone wants to use their favorite class solo in a unique way? It's a nice idea, if nothing else. It wouldn't even have to be all at once. Every major patch could add one or two new classes to the solo mode pool until eventually you have the whole stable available. Let people play the whole game solo this way if they want.
All that would really matter is making each one unique, give them meaningful character options, and try to give any solo mode the same feeling of building your character as you'd get from, well... a Final Fantasy game.
Edit: I just wanted to add that I'm not suggesting any "Solo Mode" be a seperate character or instance from the game at large. I mean it more in the way that PVP and standard gameplay actions are combined on one character but tracked and used seperately depending on whether you are in a PVP zone or not. Perhaps you would equip a class stone or gear listed as solo only, activating solo mode which has its stats tracked seperately from the base class. You'd still be in the same game world as everyone else but would simply be using a seperate solo set of actions and mechanics while you are using such solo specific gear. However you do it the point is that you would not be isolated from the MMO world at large you would simply be using a different set of actions and restricted to solo mode content until you choose to switch back. -
11-18-2018, 05:37 PMWellFooled
One of my main complaints against FFXIV has long been how we don't have customization gameplay. All paladins play the same, all bards play the same, all red mages play the same. We're all cookie cutters of each other. Is it balanced? Absolutely. FFXIV is a fine example of balance. Is it mind numbingly boring? Also absolutely.
If they added what you suggested, solo content would be insanely more fun than group content. Skill trees, subclassing, unique ways to aquire a slew of abilities and customize your character based on what abilities you use (like Blue Mage) are all a dream come true.
I would suggest screw limiting that to solo content. Give me that game, the one I'm playing now is boring. -
11-18-2018, 05:46 PMHyren575
On a personal level I completely agree with you. However what one person finds boring another person finds fun. What one person finds easy to understand another person finds frusterating. From a marketing perspective it makes sense why you'd want to have the game very accessible even if it meant making everything extremely samey for balance purposes. On top of that when you have to create content like dungeons it becomes exponentially harder to balance for every player option available. As awesome as it is to fantasize about the possibility the reality is all this stuff takes money and time to do. Unfortunately neither is as infinite of a resource as we would like it to be for a developer.
That's why I think splitting it into seperate modes is a good idea. You can give them the same base content with some exceptions on either side. Solo side could get some unique duties and normal side can get things like raids. It would give people who want these extra options a place for them yet wouldn't destroy the balance of the game for those who like it as it is. That way you make as many people as happy as possible and, let's be honest, from a financial perspective that's what you want to do. Reworking huge chunks of the game is a good way to upset half the playerbase into dropping immediately especially when the game has been established as the way it is for many years now.
One thing that could be done, though, is allow "Solo Mode" builds into duties together unsynced. Basically a "Let's just all be OP" type of thing. It is still an MMO after all, and showing off builds can be a lot of fun. The entire point of solo is to not be concerned about balance in order to bring in unique ideas and player diversity. Unsynced has always been a way to simply curbstomp everything without care for balance. It's a natural fit. -
11-18-2018, 06:03 PMWellFooledI see what you're saying, but you can't make the argument that balancing a more complex game would cost too many resources while simultaneously suggesting doubling the workload of the job and content design from now on. To do what you're suggesting would take a very large amount of time and work. I suggest if the devs would do that work, make it for the entire game and not limit the benefits of that work to soloing content, particularly not in an MMORPG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyren575
The argument that a more complex system would confuse players is not one I consider valid. No other MMO on the market has such a lack of customization as FFXIV and yet the playerbases on those games can understand the mechanics (and FFXIV has its fair share of complicated mechanics, just not ones that include gameplay customization. Chocobo breeding is complicated for example and takes some research to understand), tutorials can be introduced to explain any new concepts as per usual, and naturally online guides will be abundant for those who don't enjoy creating their own builds. -
11-18-2018, 06:03 PMDzianIn XIV You can have balance or you can have diversity. You can't have both. this is because the enviroment has been dumbed down and simplified so much there's only ever one way of doing things and thats why the game is basically in a state of nothing matters but dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by WellFooled
As for jobs It's not just all paladins that play the same for example. It's all tanks. It's all healers. It's all dps.
Warrior tanks a boss no differently than a paladins does. Which again is no different to how a dark tanks the same boss and will be exactly the saem as any new tankwe get tanks that boss.. They all tank exactly the same way. The flashes and sparkles may be different but the tanking is the same.
Same with dps. Aside from a few flashes and sparkles a dry is no different than a monk or ninja or Sam. They all have largely the same tools. All good at single target all good at aoe. All have access to stuns silences invigorates... the only difference is the flashes and sparkles. outside of a few buffs that don't actually change anything just make your numbers a bit higher.
As such Anything that diversifies a job from other jobs ends up being redundant and worthless. Look at heavies. Binds sleeps. Pacification. all of those things. They're all useless tools. generally not even worth putting on your hotbars.
There's so much focus on simplicity and balance there is no diversity and that makes everything boring and samey. -
11-18-2018, 06:23 PMHyren575
I'm trying to be pragmatic more than anything. There would be an insane amount of resistance to shaking up the existing formula completely even if it was something that was objectively better in every way. Reworking the game like this, while satisfying to people like us, would be a massive turn off to people who are invested in the game as it stands. I genuinely don't think it's a question of whether things like this should split off or the game should be reworked. I think at this point it's a question of splitting it in some way or having no change at all because it would cause too many problems. The exception being waiting until XIV ends completely and they next MMO Final Fantasy is produced with a new system from the ground up.
I also agree that focus on accessibility shouldn't be a sole focus and that gamers are more than capable of learning and adapting. However by that same token don't underestimate how resistant to any kind of learning curve some people can be. Square doesn't want the money of just the people who are capable of and want to figure out new or complex systems. They want everyone's money. Complexity will inherently and unfortunately alienate people and that is the last thing a business, especially in the modern world, wants to do. The only reason I even think an idea like this is viable at all is because it would please a large number of people with different opinions on how the game should be while simultaniously solving a growing problem that is itself causing player disengagement.
Finally this idea addresses the disengagement problem many players have while limiting the actual workload. Reworking the game for a new system would require reworking just that; the entire game. By intergrating a solo mode into the game as it stands you're limiting the increased workload to creating the solo variation of the class itself instead of the whole game. This is a much simpler task as it's only balanced against itself in the first place which reduces the amount of consideration that needs to be done. Truthfully and sadly, though, if anything would shotgun this idea down it's that even implementing this solo idea would require a massive increase in playtesting and thus time/cost as content would now need to be playtested not just against one class but a class with a large amount of build diversity. Not for balance purposes, mind you, but for bugs and exploits. The only upside there is, again, you would be playtesting based around the solo varient of the class and not the content as a whole.
An idea like this is still not perfect and I'm not going to pretend it wouldn't take a lot of work to implement. Still I hope the precedent set by Blue Mage can be followed up on in a positive way. A lot of this will depend on whether or not Blue Mage is even going to be done well in the first place and... I have my doubts. That is beside the point though. I'm simply hoping for the best and presenting ideas using the concept as a jumping off point. -
11-18-2018, 07:17 PMBourne_EndeavorThe issue becomes without balance, people will force out certain jobs worse than they already do. This happened in FFXI and happens in WoW frequently. If you play a gimped job, it's basically considered worthless. Adding to these problems is people are going to determine the mathematically superior build and outside slight deviations from it, you will be expected to use said build in harder content. Customization is ultimately an illusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by WellFooled
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11-18-2018, 07:22 PMLuin
massive
multiplayer
BLU is an excuse to keep a boring and uninspired overworld. Hold hostage a fan favorite and one of the most requested job since xiv reveal and force players to play the least interesting "content" the game has to offer. -
11-18-2018, 07:24 PMHyren575While I personally don't know if I'd agree with all of this specifically (Or, at least, not to the same degree) this is more reason why seperating the content into different tiers would be more workable. One focused on unique and engaging content. One focused on balance and team play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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11-18-2018, 07:30 PMHyren575I semi agree with you in the sense that it isn't necessary to lock any class to one side or the other under a system like the one I presented. The goal would be to have both. A balanced one and a diverse/unique one tracked seperately. If something like this was added I would advocate making a traditional version of Blue Mage in the same vein as making a solo version of the other classes. However, I am not entirely against the idea of having some unique content on either side of this divide either; it would depend a lot on how it is done. Though doing so with something as base as a class is a recipe for complaints as we are seeing with the current backlash to blue mage in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luin
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11-18-2018, 07:40 PMLuinThe better idea is to just make the overworld interesting. You don't need solo/team specs for jobs, you just need overworld content. Doesn't matter how "fun" BLU is, because there's still nothing to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyren575
The entire "BLU only works in solo because it is otherwise imbalanced" is an insult. These are resources that could have just as easily went into making it a functional job. Then they revealed it as a job at fanfest, to people that have been asking for BLU for more than a decade.
Next thing you know, we're going to get FFXIV: Immortal. -
11-18-2018, 07:42 PMNocturniaUzuki
It may be a bit of extra work to balance, but here's how to make BLU easily work in party play without ruining it's identity:
You can go out and learn lots of skills. Then you set up to X number of skills into special slots, like role skills. Each ability is balanced (hence the work), but you can only bring X number of skills into a fight. This let's the player CHOOSE what they want to be. Do they want to be a tank? A healer? A dps? Or hybrid? The BLU job icon changes colour based on which role's skills have the most skills slotted. Majority tank-oriented skills? Blue icon.
In addition, BLU can maintain it's monster spell-castinf ability by simply getting hit by enemy attacks while a short shield is up, like with DRK or SAM. For Y seconds after, their shield skill changes to the skill they blocked, and they can cast it at will within that time window. These abilities are less inpactful as the manually learned skills - more akin to how SAM and DRK get a boost from blocking. -
11-18-2018, 08:01 PMHyren575It's definitely something that could be done to work as a group, though if made solo there is ideally more that could be done since you're less concerned about party interaction. However you are right it definitely could be made to work in a party dynamic. The problem as I see it, though, is that it would be a bandaid on the larger issue of player disengagement long term. There is a limit to what you can do while concerned about party balance and even if you're not the game has simply been around too long and become too established as what it is. If blue mage was made with unique mechanics it would still be attached to the gear treadmill and overall game systems that are fostering many long time players to become bored with the game. A rework would cause too many players to quit because of things they like being changed thus causing a situation where you're pleasing one group to satisfy another and losing players regardless. I would personally love a total rework of the game, done well, that would provide a larger pool of options and builds to be done along the lines of what I presented earlier. A "Realm Reborn Reborn" if you will. Realistically, though, if they are going to do that they would probably just start work on the next FF MMO with a new system from the ground up. I would certainly be excited for that but it doesn't do much to solve the issues with the game we have now.Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki
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11-18-2018, 11:08 PMdiruulth
because it’s an mmorpg.
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11-19-2018, 02:52 AMDzianthat depends. In FFXI for example the issue with a lot of jobs was not the jobs themselves but the enviroment. many of those jobs that were lolled at not because they were considered weak but because of the way in which the enviroment worked. pet jobs for example were generally pretty damn strong but the reason they were often lolled is becasue they fed bosses and mobs so much tp they made fights harder than they needed to be.. this is why even dragoons were lolled. a lot of mobs were weak to piercing damage which would have been ideal for a dragoon but there pets fed so much tp to bosses that they were often shunned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
just changing the way mobs were fed tp within the enviroment would have practically eliminated the lolling of the all of those jobs. without any actual adjustments to the jobs themselves... and thus many of the jobs would have been better balanced just by making that one enviromental change..
if you adjusted the mob variety at the higher levels (pre abyssea) then you would have gone a long way to making casters more desirable. they were generally only shunned at higher levels because virtually every mob at those levels would either silence you, give you amnesia or reflect any magic attacks back at your party.. all of which destroyed casters in higher end parties. again could have been fixed with an enviromental adjustment...
A good enviroment creates balance on its own.. the best and easiest example of this wouldbefirst person shooters. where you might have a guy with close quarters shotguns / smgs. and a guy with a high powered sniper rifle... both of these people have distinctly different strengths and weaknesses and thus it is the enviroment that creates the balance.. a wide open desert for example that sniper is gonna be so over powered the guy with a shotgun wouldnt even stand a chance... however an enviroment such as an office block or something the sniper is going to be at a distinct disadvantage over the other guy... so if you create an enviromnet that encorporates both. you achieve balance.
racing games are another example. you can have super fasst cars that dont handle so great and slower cars with much better handling and traction... in a drag race it's obvious the super fast car will win. on windy backroads though its likely to lose.. so balance is achieved through the enviroment and intelligent track design...
IF XIV hadnt simplified its enviroment so much it could have made jobs incredibly diverse and use the enviroment to achieve balance.. but it's been dumbed down and simplified so much that DPS is literally the only thing that ever matters -
11-19-2018, 03:19 AMVaer
Probably too much work and Q&A to do 15+2(?) jobs when most of them don't have issues soloing in the first place. At that point you could probably make another new job or two. Any existing solo gaps will be filled with the trust system they are adding.
They said it took a year to come up with BLU, AFAIK it's not balanced for party play and it's basically in development and maybe half finished.
I think they actually somewhat beta tested this with the logos system in Eureka. You can make slightly different builds (tanky healer, dps that can heal/raise, etc) and there are some dumb abilities you can play around with but the problem is it's in Eureka.
They could have kept BLU the way it is and added some presets of abilities (balanced for party play - so some skills might be nerfed inside content but fully functional outside) that when all learned would allow you to queue into content but not before that. It would have to be a bit restrictive on what you're allowed to take in (you can equip 24 of them normally after all and there are 49 abilities with more coming) but I think I would take that over something that is only meant for solo. -
11-19-2018, 03:28 AMJandorSure, can we get a multiplayer version of every solo class too? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyren575
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11-19-2018, 03:53 AMKrojackWow had talent trees for years yet everyone still all choose the same talents because those were the best ones. The same would happen here. Everyone would still be cookie cutter of everyone elseQuote:
Originally Posted by WellFooled
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11-19-2018, 04:21 AMUsagiAndCrepes
Balance gets thrown around too casually on many games. So it either means you want something to be better or you're actually talking about player investment/reward. Focusing primarily on balance isn't necessary to make a good game in fact, many don't focus on it particularly and are more engaging because they focus on the constantly evolving meta. If characters have more choices and they emphasize the old idea of mixing class features then the meta can evolve so there are several ways to do well and some things work better in different situations, rather than based on job selection. When you lower the skill ceiling on a game you alter the skill-luck axis so you're left with only low skill low luck (one or few optimal ways to play, same gear/skills, rotations) play and high luck low skill (grinding rng) play. That is one way to design a game but it isn't the only way.
However changing the entire game to be more freeform wouldn't work not because of balance but because you're changing the design of the Skinner box which is the safest bet for an mmo. The box is made more comfortable with cosmetics, engaging story, and fostering communities. But more importantly people grow used to it and if you change the fundamental game style, rather than some academic concern like balance, your concern is alienating the existing fans who already like it the way it is.
Having two sets of classes to play would also be a lot of work, for what? You can already (mostly) solo with the other classes. Then you create the question why BLU isn't a full class if other classes can be limited classes, and if BLU is a full class it has to be cookie cutter like the rest.