Blue Mage Primal Abilities Vs Summoner lack of Primal "Abilities"

Now let me start off by saying that this isn't a "LET'S BASH BLUE MAGE BECAUSE IT'S GETTING PRIMAL ABILITIES" kind of post in any way shape or form. After watching the Blue Mage video, we have all seen the Blue Mage learn Shiva's Ice Arrow. I think this is amazing and really makes me hopeful for how Blue Mage is going to play. I am curious though what this means for Summoners.

Summoner has been promised new egi glamour (i.e. Ramuh and Sephirot) for over a year and a half, with nothing to show for it. I guess I'm just wondering if they are planning on making Summoner more of a Summoner, or if they are going to continue down the Dragon Mage path that we have kind of landed on currently.

What do you guys think? It's exciting to see what direction both of them go in in 5.0 and I'm really looking forward to see how both of them will play.

I'm kind of anxious about that too.
Like DWT was a bit too close to bluemage in my eyes (Tho it is fun, pls dont take it from me se)
I'm just worried about how they're going to distinguish the two besides "has pet" and "can do trash skills too" thematically that is.

Did someone mentioned in the event Egi glamours being worked on still?

One thing for sure, they said Role Actions and Job Actions are getting some sort of second pass. They will have the chance to introduce more "classic" SMN feel to the job if they want.

Make one of the SMN quests something to change your Dreadwyrm Trance to Aethertrance and have new spells being the Demi version of other summons.

Summoner doesn’t need more egi anything we need to become more of a summoner and not this glorified pet job....that’s just my opinion

DWT is Evocation which fits the brim of summoner/evoker...Blue mage is just monsters abilities not actually channeling the actual primal or even summon them ala summoner.

So I have to mention, just because it's the title of the thread, summoners do have access to primal abilities. Enkindle does a move for the associated primal, but it's performed by your egi rather than you performing it directly, and you do have death flare. So we'll have to see how it works out with blue mages to see who has the broader selection of abilities.

I do find it interesting that they made it so the blue mage actually has to be hit by an attack to learn a skill. I realize that's how many games had you learn blue magic, but given the unconfirmed leaks we've seen in the past, many DPS would die if they stood in the attacks making the job difficult to pull off in that role. I would have expected more of the Strago style of learning blue magic (you have to not have blind status, and be facing the monster when it performs the attack to learn it) over being hit.

That being said, back to summoner, I think it's more appropriate for your summon to perform the primal abilities than for the summoner to manually perform them, and I do think it would be interesting for the job to have less direct skills and more pet interaction with the pets performing the abilities of the various primals they represent. Maybe in a rework that will be possible, especially if the speculated abandonment of classes comes around in 5.0 allowing them to separate skills like bio and miasma to scholar and give summoner more skills directly related to your summoned egi in their place.

What I hope is SMN gets an overhaul on the summoning part to fix that problem. I'd like to have Demi versions of our current summons. Summoner's Primal abilities come from the summons themselves and should stay that way.
Blue Mage getting Primal abilities is fine. I actually suggested that before and got flamed for it, but it turns out to be true.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

What I hope is SMN gets an overhaul on the summoning part to fix that problem. I'd like to have Demi versions of our current summons. Summoner's Primal abilities come from the summons themselves and should stay that way.
Blue Mage getting Primal abilities is fine. I actually suggested that before and got flamed for it, but it turns out to be true.

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It's really the only way I can see them one upping the demi bahamut reveal.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

What I hope is SMN gets an overhaul on the summoning part to fix that problem. I'd like to have Demi versions of our current summons. Summoner's Primal abilities come from the summons themselves and should stay that way.
Blue Mage getting Primal abilities is fine. I actually suggested that before and got flamed for it, but it turns out to be true.

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I 100% agree with this. If we are sticking with the demi- primal theme that's fine, but let us have more. If we Chained different Demi-Primals, each with different effects (debuffs/party buffs/direct burst damage/aoe damage etc...) and finished them off with Demi-Bahamut I think that would give us more of a sense of what a summoner is all about. Each Demi-Primal would only be out for second at a time, just enough time for them to do what they are intended for and then to be switched out.

If they decide to play more on DWT then I feel like they need to take a look at how Yuna played in Dissidia Duodecim. They could play more like a fast paced mini burst damage dealer, using a magic circle for each attack and calling that primal to come through and use a single attack, that can be chained with other "summon" attacks. No it wouldn't be true summoning but it would be aesthetically similar enough to a summoner that people would get the feeling, while still fitting within the fast paced landscape of ffxiv.

Anyway, Like I said, I am super excited for Blue Mage, and VERY curious to see how they implement Summoner in 5.0 ... I really hope they just wow us with something great. It has been let down after let down with nothing but baby carrots to tide us over.

Ya, but judging that BLU is starting at a lv 50 cap, the job doesn't seem to be designed around the idea of Present-day content however if I"m not mistaken they did state that it will have it's own unique content on top of being able to do older content. You gotta think about it like this, they showcased Shiva fight with BLU solo, potentially Hard Mode fight, but doing Hard Mode Fight as a solo lv 50 is definitely not easy, if they job is designed around being solo, they have more flexibility to add stronger abilities that would be broken at level cap.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Ya, but judging that BLU is starting at a lv 50 cap, the job doesn't seem to be designed around the idea of Present-day content however if I"m not mistaken they did state that it will have it's own unique content on top of being able to do older content. You gotta think about it like this, they showcased Shiva fight with BLU solo, potentially Hard Mode fight, but doing Hard Mode Fight as a solo lv 50 is definitely not easy, if they job is designed around being solo, they have more flexibility to add stronger abilities that would be broken at level cap.

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That's very true. Seems only time will tell exactly how they implement things. I'm overjoyed that Blue Mage is joining the roster, and though I was hoping for the XI aesthetic, I am actually really happy that they went with a more over the top Classic Blue Mage style. Love that they used the weapon from Tactics Advance too. Makes it feel like a mix of different BLUs from times past. It will be exciting to see how it develops and where it sits job wise.

I take the view that Summoner is a tricky one. What they gave us at ARR was not a 'proper' Summoner job but what they did give us was still a very good job that was enjoyable to play, but it was more of a DoT mage with a pet than a summoner. What they have inadvertently done is give it a big of an identity crisis, on the one hand FFXIV's rendition of SMN is a DoT mage with an Egi and on the other hand there are people who want a summoner closer to that of other FF titles, which is not unreasonable. If they satisfied the latter, then they make the people who lose DoT mage SMN unhappy, and yet there is a demand for it. It seems Demi-Bahamut was the solution to that problem, work in a bigger summon into their rotation and I expect that is the direction SMN will continue to take. But the new egis have long been bait, I can understand balancing issues in having more pets, but then arguably other similar styled MMO's have managed to be more generous with their selection of pets.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I take the view that Summoner is a tricky one. What they gave us at ARR was not a 'proper' Summoner job but what they did give us was still a very good job that was enjoyable to play, but it was more of a DoT mage with a pet than a summoner. What they have inadvertently done is give it a big of an identity crisis, on the one hand FFXIV's rendition of SMN is a DoT mage with an Egi and on the other hand there are people who want a summoner closer to that of other FF titles, which is not unreasonable. If they satisfied the latter, then they make the people who lose DoT mage SMN unhappy, and yet there is a demand for it. It seems Demi-Bahamut was the solution to that problem, work in a bigger summon into their rotation and I expect that is the direction SMN will continue to take. But the new egis have long been bait, I can understand balancing issues in having more pets, but then arguably other similar styled MMO's have managed to be more generous with their selection of pets.

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I feel like a lot of Summoner players that like the job as it is more so like how the job plays because it is fun, which there is nothing wrong with, and less because of how it is implemented as a Summoner job. Every Summoner player I've talked to in game wants more from the job in terms of actually Summoning or at least feeling like it has more of a connection to summoning, even if they are ok with the way it currently plays. Demi-Bahamut was definitely a step in the right direction, though it feels like Summoner is still kind of split between what it is trying to do. On one end it is a dot mage, which is because it is tied to arcanist, and there is definitely a niche place for that kind of gameplay in the roster. On the other hand it has Egi's, which make it a pet job and offers the potential to feel like a traditional Summoner. Then we have the Trance which has in a sense given the Summoner the ability to tap into the primals abilities (similar to Terra's Trance form on a smaller scale). I like each of these forms separately, and when merged together are fun, but like you said it really makes Summoner a little confusing aesthetically.

I think they should just double down on the trances and LB3's. Egi glamours are ok but I personally think that SMN in this game lends itself more to the old school version of summoners, ex summon a primal, it uses an attack, then disappears. Demi Bahamut functions in the same way, just wish the AI was better. I'm hoping the next SMN trance has something to do with Alexander and it's auto attacks are aoe focused. Another way to make SMN feel like a summoner is to have their LB3's perform the primals ultimate attack move of the egi-glamour/trance currently active. Like you can summon Ifirit if Ifrit-egi is out and he will do Hellfire etc. I think it would be cool in an alliance raid if you had SMN's from each of the three parties use their LB3 and you see Garuda, Ifrit and Titan show up or Ramuh, Shiva, etc.

...or they could just increase the size of the egi's and change the textures on them so they don't look like floating chicken nuggets.

We'll I've posted many a thread on this subject in the past. Two key complaints that keep coming up are no new Egis and Egi designs are meh. Egi Glamous first needs to be streamlined and divided into two categories; Melee and Ranged. "Summon I" would be ranged and "Summon II/II"I would be melee. An example of this would be Ifrit, Titan, Shiva, would be glamoured as a melee to either Summon II or III based on player preference and Garuda, Ramuh, Levi as a range would be glamoured to Summon I.

To address Egi "meh" factor, DWT needs to be reworked. 4.0 SB was a step in the right direction and can be used to fix the problem. When a player enters DWT, the current Egi increases in size and resembles the true Primal Form. Enkindle would replace Deathflare as a massive finish with increased damage and improved visual.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I take the view that Summoner is a tricky one. What they gave us at ARR was not a 'proper' Summoner job but what they did give us was still a very good job that was enjoyable to play, but it was more of a DoT mage with a pet than a summoner. What they have inadvertently done is give it a big of an identity crisis, on the one hand FFXIV's rendition of SMN is a DoT mage with an Egi and on the other hand there are people who want a summoner closer to that of other FF titles, which is not unreasonable. If they satisfied the latter, then they make the people who lose DoT mage SMN unhappy, and yet there is a demand for it. It seems Demi-Bahamut was the solution to that problem, work in a bigger summon into their rotation and I expect that is the direction SMN will continue to take. But the new egis have long been bait, I can understand balancing issues in having more pets, but then arguably other similar styled MMO's have managed to be more generous with their selection of pets.

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True

I wish that arcanist would have just been a job of its own as a dot mage with pets, without the Bahamut stuff...

SMN and SCH should have always been their own job without a base class or at least SMN should have because I think SCH is fine as is.

But tying Arcanist to SMN was their downfall because there are plenty of ease SMN could have been done right...they got it right with DWT and Demi Bahamut....but the dots, egi and what not should have been an Arcanist Job or hell make its job a Witch/Warlock...

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

True

I wish that arcanist would have just been a job of its own as a dot mage with pets, without the Bahamut stuff...

SMN and SCH should have always been their own job without a base class or at least SMN should have because I think SCH is fine as is.

But tying Arcanist to SMN was their downfall because there are plenty of ease SMN could have been done right...they got it right with DWT and Demi Bahamut....but the dots, egi and what not should have been an Arcanist Job or hell make its job a Witch/Warlock...

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I would like to address this with a little History lesson and try to explain why it's the way it is. Back in 2011 there were two popular MMO models SE was looking at when revamping XIV; WoW Vanilla and FFXI. They wanted to add a pet job into the game but need a model to base it from. FFXI summoner had a lukewarm response from the playerbase often being used as a healer rather than dps because it lacked any job identity and role was based on a subjob, /whm. FFXI beastmaster would just charm enemies in the field and was mainly a solo class. WoW had Warlock, a DoT based class with a pet and Hunter which would tame pets in the field.

Also a key thing to remember in FFXIV 2.0 was every job was meant to be unique and not play like another job. Having SMN just cast spells would have been two similar to BLM. Ultimately the battle designer chose to go with the WoW model and thus FFXIV Summoner was born, for better or worse.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I would like to address this with a little History lesson and try to explain why it's the way it is. Back in 2011 there were two popular MMO models SE was looking at when revamping XIV; WoW Vanilla and FFXI. They wanted to add a pet job into the game but need a model to base it from. FFXI summoner had a lukewarm response from the playerbase often being used as a healer rather than dps because it lacked any job identity and role was based on a subjob, /whm. FFXI beastmaster would just charm enemies in the field and was mainly a solo class. WoW had Warlock, a DoT based class with a pet and Hunter which would tame pets in the field.

Also a key thing to remember in FFXIV 2.0 was every job was meant to be unique and not play like another job. Having SMN just cast spells would have been two similar to BLM. Ultimately the battle designer chose to go with the WoW model and thus FFXIV Summoner was born, for better or worse.

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All understandable but here we are with the design flaw from years ago where simply doing what they did to SMN in HW and SB could have been their path from the start...their are too many templates for a games with over 15 titles to its name....

But either way I love my class just wish is was more SMN and less witch/warlock

Lol, SMN is barely a DoT mage/Warlock at this point...The DoT management has been cut down significantly. Bio and Miasma are important but just a small part of its kit.

If anything, SMN is known for having a LOT of ogcd/instant spells.

Summoners, rest easy, you'll never have any kind of competition from Blue Mages. Only Summoners still get to use primal themed abilities in any actual gameplay.

Can Summoner be the next "Limited Job" and go Kill Primals and then be able to actually summon them and cause DEVASTATING WORLD CHANGING ATTACKS!

Sorry for my outburst XD. Although I do think that would be amazing and go on a Summoners Pilgrimage, i.e. FFX, and collect all the summons, I in no way shape or form believe that will EVER happen. Would be cool, but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I do find it interesting that they made it so the blue mage actually has to be hit by an attack to learn a skill. I realize that's how many games had you learn blue magic, but given the unconfirmed leaks we've seen in the past, many DPS would die if they stood in the attacks making the job difficult to pull off in that role. I would have expected more of the Strago style of learning blue magic (you have to not have blind status, and be facing the monster when it performs the attack to learn it) over being hit.

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You don't have to be directly hit by the attack, you just need to see the enemy use it, and then defeat them... and hope RNG is kind to you.

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Originally Posted by Haxaan

Can Summoner be the next "Limited Job" and go Kill Primals and then be able to actually summon them and cause DEVASTATING WORLD CHANGING ATTACKS!

Sorry for my outburst XD. Although I do think that would be amazing and go on a Summoners Pilgrimage, i.e. FFX, and collect all the summons, I in no way shape or form believe that will EVER happen. Would be cool, but it is what it is.

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Actually, We can't get the Egi until we defeat the corresponding Primal, so it's kinda there but not really.
I think SMN can benefit from BLU's spell book feature, but for SMN they can pick from a collection of Primals they've defeated as summons, which just sounds like a glorified Egi glamour system if it's Egi so I hope it's Demi summons because those are way cooler.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Actually, We can't get the Egi until we defeat the corresponding Primal, so it's kinda there but not really.
I think SMN can benefit from BLU's spell book feature, but for SMN they can pick from a collection of Primals they've defeated as summons, which just sounds like a glorified Egi glamour system if it's Egi so I hope it's Demi summons because those are way cooler.

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I think that would actually be a cool implementation. Personally I like the Demi-Primal idea more and hope they move in that direction. I like having the primal out for moments at a time to do what it came to do and bounce. The Egi's are fine and all but if we are going to keep them I feel like they need to feel more impactful. I do think having a cache of primals to choose from and assign (similar to egi glamour) for your Demi Rotation would be really cool. If they decide to keep both Egi and Demi then making lower Tier Primals (i.e. Shiva, Levi, Ramuh) for Egi's would be appropraite, and higher Tier Primals (i.e. Alexander, Bahamut, Odin) for Demi's would be appropriate. Even if they didn't change the moves or effectiveness of said primals for content, having the choice to customize your Job more would be GREATLY appreciated.