Beginner NIN question: clip it or skip it?

I'm new to DPS jobs, and have a question about DoT clipping. NIN is the first job I played that has me execute a combo in order to inflict a DoT. So when shadow fang is about to expire, but doesn't quite line up with the combo, I have to make a decision on to clip it, which I know is bad. I can skip it and use dancing edge, but then my next combo does less DPS, which is also bad. Or, what I have been doing is try to squeeze in an ogcd if available, and if not, I'll allow the auto attack, and then use shadowfang. Even if fairly short, it feels like I'm standing there for an eternity.

I'm only 44 right now, and I know it might be a little early to worry about such things. I try to answer my own questions as much as possible, but this one stumped me. I just want to do things right.

Speaking as a BRD, we’re always told to clip our DoTs with IJ at 1~3 seconds remaining, rather than allowing them to drop entirely because of the potency loss. I would think that NINs would follow a similar rule—losing ticks of Shadow Fang may not be enough to offset the potency of an additional Aeolian Edge combo. To be safe, I would personally clip it rather than let it drop, but I guess it depends on the duration remaining when you finish your second AE combo whether you opt for SF or for another AE. I’m not a NIN main though, so someone who mains it would probably be better equipped to give a definitive answer.

As HyoMin said shadow fang is generally refreshed at 3 or less seconds, any more than that and you can kill a sec or 2 by folding in a mudra or ogcd to cut it shorter but you never want it to fall off. Clipping a cpl ticks is better than waiting 3 gcd's to reapply it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Speaking as a BRD, we’re always told to clip our DoTs with IJ at 1~3 seconds remaining, rather than allowing them to drop entirely because of the potency loss.

---

BRDs have to clip because if they don't, they have to use two actions to get the DoTs back up, rather than just one. It has little to do with potency loss, and more because if they drop, your songs can't proc. The same reasoning cannot be applied to NIN.

Tsubaki75 has the right answer, however.

Quote:

---

Clipping a cpl ticks is better than waiting 3 gcd's to reapply it

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raldo

BRDs have to clip because if they don't, they have to use two actions to get the DoTs back up, rather than just one. It has little to do with potency loss, and more because if they drop, your songs can't proc. The same reasoning cannot be applied to NIN.

Tsubaki75 has the right answer, however.

---

My reasoning was more, if SF dropped in the middle of a 3rd AE combo, you’d have to finish that combo plus start the SF combo once more to reapply—you’d probably lose more than just the two GCDs that BRD loses for letting theirs drop and reapplying, on top of the missed ticks of SF (and Slashing if you are in a group that doesn’t have another job that applies it, like WAR or SAM). But, as I said at the end of my comment, I supposed that would depend on your SF duration at the end of the second AE combo. Tsubaki75’s comment is in line with mine—better to clip it than to lose the ticks.


As an aside: with BRD, it actually is about potency loss—you said it yourself: no DoTs = no procs, which is a massive loss in damage, even if the procs are pure RNG (in Minuet and Mage’s especially). Plus we miss the DoT ticks, and most of our damage comes from our combined DoTs, and we have to sacrifice 100 potency in HS usage to reapply Stormbite and Caustic Bite (both only have an initial potency of 100 versus Heavy Shot’s 150). So, yes, it is about potency loss with BRD.

Always clip. You will generally get two AE or AC combos in between a Shadow Fang duration. As HyoMin said, it'll be a net loss if you let the dot drop entirely compared to clipping it as it's about to fall off.

The rule of thumb is to compare it to your "Filler" spell/weaponskill combo.

A simple example are healers (Non AST for simplicity.)

Aero II does 50 damage then 50 damage for every 3 seconds on the boss up to 18 seconds. (Instant cast, 2.5 Recast)

Stone IV does 250 damage. (2.5 cast, 2.5 recast)

Aero II, without using any ability during the weave time (that empty amount of time while your GCD timer of 2.5 seconds refills) does 350 damage over the course of those 18 seconds, which lets us see where clipping Aero II early, without good reason, causes a DPS loss. We want to find where the potency of Stone IV > Potency of Aero II.

Seconds: Aero II VS Stone IV
0: 50 VS 0
2.5: 50 VS 250
3: 100 VS 250
6: 150 VS 250
9: 200 VS 250
12: 250 VS 250 (<~ Equal! Leaning Towards Aero II because of SPS affecting DOT damage)
15: 300 VS 250 (Aero II surpasses Stone IV)
18: 350 VS 250

In your case though its really much easier. If you're clipping your DOT just barely too early anywhere from 1- 5 seconds we can see how much of a loss that really is from just subtracting since Aeolian Edge and Shadowfang share the same combo path.

Shadow Fang is 200 potency optimally plus 40 potency every 3 seconds for 21 seconds. Totaling at 480 potency. (Note* Dots arent affected by weapon type resistance debuffs so if there was ever a draw, the non DOT would win)

Aeolian Edge is 380 potency opimally.

So to clip 3 seconds on your Shadow fang you lose 40 potency, Causing that Shadow Fang to have been worth 440 potency, which is still a net gain on Aeolian Edge.
Also, to Clip at 6 seconds on your Shadow Fang you lose 80 potency, Causing that Shadow Fang to have been worth 400 potency, which is again still a net gain on Aeolian Edge, but its still pretty close after factoring resistances not affecting DoTs. (420 VS 418)

When figuring out if you should clip the GCD for an OGCD, you again compare the OGCD to your filler Spell/weapon skill combo.

Lets go back to Stone IV vs Aero II.

Every Second you spend not attacking is a second that you have lost in your DPS. Stone IV is the spell that you spam when no other options are more rewarding (DoTs are already up and cant be clipped.) So Stone IV is your standard. You should be doing 250 potency per 2.5 seconds at a minimum (for optimal DPS. Sounds weird I know, to say optimally and minimum together.)

By weaving you can keep up with your 250 potency minimum PPS without sacrificing your OGCD abilities too much, helping to make your actual role of healing less punishing while maintaining Mana. Every second you waste not Stone IV'ing is 100 potency lost (IF NOT MORE FROM RAID BUFFS.) So to cast Lucid Dreaming outside of a weave and into the hard GCD you effectively have lost 100 potency. Therefore, by casting it within your OGCD youve removed a 100 potency penalty from your DPS, effectively boosting your DPS by 100 potency* (When comparing yourself to the bad version of you who hard clipped the GCD.) This is because you lost 1 second from casting your next Stone IV. At 6 seconds, Aero II with a stone IV is worth, 150 + 250 (+100 towards next Stone IV) vs 2 Stone IVs Plus lucid at 500. So with WHM specifically its equally DPS efficient to clip your aero II at 6 seconds in (leaning towards it because of the SPS bonus towards DOTS) than it is to hardclip an ability. There are times and cases where hard clipping into your GCD IS A DPS GAIN compared to weaving. You just have to recognize which situations those are. (Weaving is usually good but is not ALWAYS the best answer.)

The same can be applied to whether to break your GCD on even ninja. Aeolian Edge is your standard filler.

Spinning: 150
Gust: 200
Aoelian Edge: 340

So the average Potency per second is 690 over 7.5 seconds or 92 PPS. Any Ability that does 92 potency or more is a net gain over clipping the GCD, as opposed to not using it AT ALL. It would still be better to weave it, so that you dont suffer the opportunity cost of not keeping your GCD flowing, but ninja doesnt always have the choice. You can also factor the opportunity cost of the ability into it, by taking the potency of the ability divided by its cool down. Mug for example is 140 divided by 90 or about 1.5 PPS lost by delaying it. Jugulate is 80 divided by 30 or about 2.7 PPS lost by delaying it. Use that to build a priority list for what skills need to go off back into cool down the fastest, (These PPS penalties only occur if you can no longer squeeze in the same amount of the same ability over the course of one fight. Example being delaying jugulate 28 seconds over the course of the fight but still getting the same number of Jugulates off as the last fight that you used Jugulate as soon as it cooled down.)


MIN Maxing is allot to think about. Most of the time at high end play though DPS can just come down to luck. Crit and DH are huge factors and are outside of the control of the player after melding and gearing is done. ;-;

I wasted too much time on this. ;-;

Being a dps is all about maintaining up time. So the BIG rule of that is to not sit on your GCD's to wait for something to reapply. So never hold a GCD to line up your dot timer, and don't just burn several oGCD's to heavily clip your GCD either. This will result in losing GCD casts during a fight which quickly adds up to lost damage.

And to simplify dots, you ideally will want to reapply shadow fang within two seconds of it falling off (either before or after) to ensure you are getting maximum up time on the dot tick.

I can ellaborate more, but those two things are very good rules to follow. And if you are really interested in looking at good information for dps and for ninja specifically there are discord servers and written guides with great information as well. Not saying asking on the forums is a terrible idea, but those will be much more reliable resources for you than the forums.

I think as most have said, generally you want to re-apply in the last couple of seconds before the dot entirely falls off.

Also in general, as Zyneste mostly laid out, there will probably be occasions where you will make exceptions in a given fight. For instance if a boss is about to jump and become untargetable you don't want to re-apply the dot right before he jumps when you could sub in an AE for extra damage. Conversely there might be situations where's it better to overwrite early to catch raid buffs for extra damage. I'm not a nin, side or main, so I can't speak specifically for these situations, but these are general "rules of thumb" for any job I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zyneste

I wasted too much time on this. ;-;

---

I read the whole thing, and while it is a wee bit more information than what I was looking for, it is still valuable. I appreciate you taking the time to put it together. Your post actually answers some other questions that I have not asked yet, so please do not feel that way.

I figured just clipping it would be best, simply because it takes 3 gcds to apply it, plus there will be no slashing bonus during any of those three hits. Basically, my gut was telling me to clip it based off of the information I had but I still wouldn't do it, and I would just wait that additional 1.5 to 2 seconds to finish the combo, but this didn't feel right either. And since I am so green to this role, I was basically asking to be pushed in the right direction!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwarleyMcSwarls

I can ellaborate more, but those two things are very good rules to follow. And if you are really interested in looking at good information for dps and for ninja specifically there are discord servers and written guides with great information as well. Not saying asking on the forums is a terrible idea, but those will be much more reliable resources for you than the forums.

---

Thank you! I am using multiple sources to gather information about DPSing, including the forums. I'm a bit obsessive like that. I do apologize if it is a bit out of place.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...fOd05ImcI/edit There is an in-depth ninja guide and since you are so eager, you might as well start studying up on the job now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AppleJinx

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...fOd05ImcI/edit There is an in-depth ninja guide and since you are so eager, you might as well start studying up on the job now.

---

Is it bad I already read the whole thing? Twice? So much good info here including the answer to my OP, along with confirmations on if what I was doing and planning on doing was correct/incorrect. Thanks so much, and I can't wait to start applying the goods. Damn maintenance! Shikata ga nai. lv45 will have to wait until tomorrow!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

there will probably be occasions where you will make exceptions in a given fight. For instance if a boss is about to jump and become untargetable you don't want to re-apply the dot right before he jumps when you could sub in an AE for extra damage.

---

Not ninja specific, but im curious about this point(emphasis mine). Is this the conclusion that the theorycrafters have come up with? I only ask, because i know some(is it all?) enemies continue to take any applied DoT damage while offscreen/untargetable until the durations are up. Because of that i would think in many situations it would be better to make sure the DoTs are running when the boss jumps because DoTs tend to have higher overall potency. I also imagine in most fights the difference would be hard to notice, but im still curious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frizze

Not ninja specific, but im curious about this point(emphasis mine). Is this the conclusion that the theorycrafters have come up with? I only ask, because i know some(is it all?) enemies continue to take any applied DoT damage while offscreen/untargetable until the durations are up. Because of that i would think in many situations it would be better to make sure the DoTs are running when the boss jumps because DoTs tend to have higher overall potency. I also imagine in most fights the difference would be hard to notice, but im still curious.

---

It's a fight-specific situation. Some bosses do not take damage from dots when they become untargetable. Some do. Some still take dot damage after everyone dies. But in general I was trying to tie into with what Zyneste mentioned about being able to calculate whether it's a loss or gain in any given situation.

Most enemies these days will not take damage when off screen or untargetable. There are some minor exceptions like the bird in Suzaku, but it's generally a safe assumption that enemies in any newer content will take no damage from dot ticks when they are untargetable, even though the dot timers will continue to run.

It was mentioned, but Shadow Fang is a little different from DOTs on other jobs since that skill is also your slashing debuff (I find it's best not to assume another job is going to do it for you, as you can never really rely on other players' skill levels) so you really don't want that to drop off. As a general rule, if I'm starting my three-move combo, and my DOT has 6 or fewer seconds remaining, I plan to end that combo with my DOT move. If it has more, I don't. You might clip off one DOT tick this way, but it's generally better than letting it fall off, especially if you're losing the slashing resist down.

generally with SF you want to reapply it in the 1 to 3 sec window however if a boss jumps AE is far better as you need to have at least 15s of SF to be above AE potency. this stays consistant until lv 70 where TenChiJin starts to mess with SF timing where during opener SF would just drop off as you reapply it and later ones you have 6 secs left on SF timing and its better to reapply SF early than let it drop.

I am a nin main not the best (by far XD) but i hope might help you

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crushnight

generally with SF you want to reapply it in the 1 to 3 sec window however if a boss jumps AE is far better as you need to have at least 15s of SF to be above AE potency. this stays consistant until lv 70 where TenChiJin starts to mess with SF timing where during opener SF would just drop off as you reapply it and later ones you have 6 secs left on SF timing and its better to reapply SF early than let it drop.

I am a nin main not the best (by far XD) but i hope might help you

---

It definitely helps as my brain is in full absorption mode right now. I made this post @lv44 and I am 49 now, so I've had a little more time to gauge the timers I'm paying attention to. I've made several changes to my UI to help accommodate this new playstyle for me, and if striking dummies wore and tore, I'd have gone through several dozen by now.

SF was definitely different because as a healer, I am so used to one-and-done to apply/reapply DoTs. Might have to deal with a cast timer like with Aero III or Miasma, but meh. What I noticed is that it is great if SF lines up so that there is 3 seconds or less on the timer, but if the SF finisher is up with 6 seconds or less you need to reapply or your next weaponskill(s) will be penalized by not having the slashing debuff.

The advice here also helped when I acquired Jin, as I also had to start paying attention to keeping Huton active. Because of the advice I received here, I immediately knew to refresh it if it is going to drop off before I get to cast another Jutsu. *whew* lots of timers to pay attention to. You practically need the Sharingan to play this job lol. Things are coming along, I just need more practice!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

The advice here also helped when I acquired Jin, as I also had to start paying attention to keeping Huton active. Because of the advice I received here, I immediately knew to refresh it if it is going to drop off before I get to cast another Jutsu. *whew* lots of timers to pay attention to. You practically need the Sharingan to play this job lol. Things are coming along, I just need more practice!

---

Huton will take care of itself once you obtain armor crush. It will be a 3rd combo ender alongside sf and ae. You will want to end your combo with armor crush once your huton timer is at 40 or less seconds, so it will become a priority system between sf for the dot, ae for damage, and ac for huton refresh.

^
Aye! Right now I am really wanting abilities like Kassatsu and Armor Crush to improve performance and QoL as a NIN.

Speaking of Armor Crush; I know this will come to me in time, but I'm just too eager. Is there a sweet spot to stand so you can easily go from rear to flank with as little movement as possible? I know the opposition's target circle has an opening to indicate the rear of the mob, but can I literally be one step outside this zone, and still get the flank bonus, or do I have to be closer to the mob's actual flank? I know you get the extension to Huton regardless of the bonus, but I want the bonus damage too of course.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

^
Aye! Right now I am really wanting abilities like Kassatsu and Armor Crush to improve performance and QoL as a NIN.

Speaking of Armor Crush; I know this will come to me in time, but I'm just too eager. Is there a sweet spot to stand so you can easily go from rear to flank with as little movement as possible? I know the opposition's target circle has an opening to indicate the rear of the mob, but can I literally be one step outside this zone, and still get the flank bonus, or do I have to be closer to the mob's actual flank? I know you get the extension to Huton regardless of the bonus, but I want the bonus damage too of course.

---

YES, if you look at the bosses hit box you will see the gap in the circle that indicates the rear position. You will want to stand at the edge of that inside the rear gap but close to the start of the flank so you can easily slide back and forth to hit the flank and go back. And now that we have all 10 role skills you can save true north for when the boss is stuck in a weird position to still hit your positionals, but definitely get in the habit of hitting them without needing to use it whenever possible. And don't be afraid to call out a tank who isn't positioning properly to allow rear and flank access. Mind you that they may be new so ask nicely xD

http://i68.tinypic.com/2iicyv5.jpg

Oh wow, this is perfect! I never actually seen this diagram before, and this helps a lot. I was worried I had to be an actual 90 degrees from the rear position for flank bonuses, and it is very good to know this before I actually got AC. Thank you!

You are welcome xD

At normal GCD speeds, now that Shadowfang and Mutilate no longer provide a 2-GCD and 1-GCD string respectively, you almost invariably clip. Just think of the extra duration as being there as a way of leniency for downtime or your later Ten-Chi-Jin Ninki spender, which takes ~3 seconds to weave in.

glad to help always want to be helping new ninjas ^^