would this be OP?

Hello,

I been thinking for a while now about AST and both it's sects. I enjoy both and always swap to the correct sect when my co-healer is either WHM or SCH. How about in 5.0 if they got rid of both sects and just made it so aspected benefic and helios will place both a shield and regen effect on the party. Now I know what you are thinking. "OMG that would make AST totally OP and will make the other healers not viable. Just hear me out a second.

When AST was first introduced they made it seem like it's regens wouldn't be as great as WHM and it's shields not as great as SCH. We are now in 4.41 and basically AST is the master of both. Let's be honest here. Sure WHM and SCH has some nice niche that makes them viable but AST can sort of out perform them both. What I am thinking is make those abilities apply both but at half potency. That way WHM reigns supreme over regens and SCH reigns supreme over shields. AST already has cards and so many other abilities that support the party. I don't believe this would make AST OP at all but what are you guys thoughts?

Your suggestion doesn't address the issue of shields not stacking. Having an AST/SCH comp with this suggestion would be a nightmare, since lesser shields from one can already overwrite the more powerful shields of another. Plus there would be issues in groups where you have AST/AST since neither Diurnal HoTs or Nocturnal shields stack (I'm more obviously talking about random matching, but there are speed kill and parse groups that take double AST).

The nice thing about SCH is that it's not only about shields, which is why the devs decided to give more potent shields to noct AST (and this didn't stop SCH being the preferred shield/mitigation/oGCD/fairy regen healer).
Devs should probably acknowledge that SCH can't be replaced and work towards making ast and whm equally desirable. Or they should remove AST sects and make a new healer, trying then to create 2 equally desirable healing couples.

Hi,

You are right. I didn't address it and I will now. You know how WHM and DRK have shields as well? Now I know they work on percentage and not potency. This is how AST shields can work. It will stack with SCH shields but it just wouldn't be as powerful. How would it be a nightmare? SCH shields would always be top notch over AST and the AST shield will just be a tiny bit more mitigation along side of it with also the added regen effect as well. For AST/AST combo. Yes the regens can stack much like WHM/AST can now or AST/AST but the shield will not. Now I know this can get confusing but it's really simple. If AST 1 cast aspect helios and gives the party regen and shield effect and let's say AST 2 does the same thing to give a secondary regen effect. Now since AST 1 already cast it first and the shield is still on the party it will not overwrite it. Now it will add a shield to those who doesn't have one like the tank usually since their shields always tend to come off first.

I agree Lastelli.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Hi,

You are right. I didn't address it and I will now. You know how WHM and DRK have shields as well? Now I know they work on percentage and not potency. This is how AST shields can work. It will stack with SCH shields but it just wouldn't be as powerful. How would it be a nightmare? SCH shields would always be top notch over AST and the AST shield will just be a tiny bit more mitigation along side of it with also the added regen effect as well.

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The stacking of double shields means more mitigation via party shields, which will spell more trouble for WHM, who is already struggling enough as it is against AST as a regen healer in terms of both healing and damage, and who has no hope of competition when it comes to going up against SCH. Give the regen effect, and why bring a WHM at all? There is no need for the more potent HoTs that WHM would have in this situation when so much of the damage is mitigated by shields—the HoTs will serve to be nothing more than an overheal.

Imagine a 25,000 critical Adlo deployed on a party + AST shields that mitigate a percentage of the target’s HP bar—the party would take virtually no damage, or the damage would be so little that the halved-potency HoTs from AST would be more than enough to tick everyone up to full again. Imagine those combined with other existing shield utilities, such as Divine Veil and Shake It Off, or even damage mitigation tools like Dismantle or Troubadour. Unless you up outgoing damage or severely nerf the amount of mitigation all of these tools give, you’ve killed any necessity to even heal. Which, your argument for WHM in your proposed scenario is that they would be the “raw healer”. In any scenario, you’re obviously not stacking ALL of these tools (because that’s just over-mitigation), but you have more than enough to spread them out with AST/SCH shields to, again, reduce the need to even press healing buttons. I’d prefer having to heal more, not less—I can already do most non-Savage content relying on my oGCD heals and rarely having to pressing GCD heals outside of Noct pre-shielding.

What you have suggested is incredibly strong, and incredibly broken. You might as well delete WHM from the game at that point, because they will have no tools to come close to competing with that.

With regards to your asking how it would be a nightmare, I was referring to before when you had not insinuated any stacking of shields simply because of the amount of ASTs that would overwrite a deployed Critlo with their Aspected Helios shields. It already happens in some groups where ASTs refuse to go Diurnal Sect with a SCH in the party; I’ve seen it happen. With regards to your subsequent proposal, it would be a nightmare because it would be incredibly broken—though the nightmare would be exclusive only to WHM, who, as I said, might as well not even exist in this scenario.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

For AST/AST combo. Yes the regens can stack much like WHM/AST can now or AST/AST but the shield will not. Now I know this can get confusing but it's really simple. If AST 1 cast aspect helios and gives the party regen and shield effect and let's say AST 2 does the same thing to give a secondary regen effect. Now since AST 1 already cast it first and the shield is still on the party it will not overwrite it. Now it will add a shield to those who doesn't have one like the tank usually since their shields always tend to come off first.

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This may be just my opinion, but it seems like this would be an overt waste of the MP on Aspected Helios if you cannot gain the effects of both. Why spend double the mana cost for a (now-halved potency) regen (per your OP) when you can just use a naked Helios instead (and allow the single regen from AST #1 to tick up any remaining HP values that are still below 100%)? It doesn’t come off as MP efficient to me. Outgoing damage in most non-Savage/non-Ultimate content is already so little that HoTs are overkill (especially double HoTs), and I wonder if, even with you halving the potency of A. Helios’ regen, if that would still be the case. Because there just simply isn’t enough outgoing damage (and healers are stupidly OP in this game).

Same for the described situation with the tank—if they are the only one in need of a shield, an A. Benefic would be far more prudent for application compared to an A. Helios. But, even then, it’s not MP efficient to spam a Noct shield simply because of the cost of current A. Benefic, so I don’t imagine it would be prudent in your design to spam the shields either.

Again, to me it just doesn’t seem efficient. This is aside from the proposed rework continuing to not give AST it’s own identity: something it has struggled with since its inception. I wish I could have suggestions on how to give it its own identity, but sadly I do not. And this is not to say that I don’t enjoy AST as it stands now—it’s my second favorite job after my main—but it is nothing more than a hybrid of two existing healer concepts with a card gimmick.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

For AST/AST combo. Yes the regens can stack much like WHM/AST can now or AST/AST

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Just to clarify, AST HoTs cannot currently stack with each other; they overwrite. Only AST/WHM HoTs can stack. I may be misunderstanding your sentence, but just in case you were meaning they can currently stack. They cannot.

9 times out of 10 if you ask yourself - "is this OP"? usually the answer is yes lol

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

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If S-E do this at 5.0, I would like to, at least, they create an actual damage rotation, give us more damage tools (like water, quake, tornado), double the DPS potencies, add an finisher (Ultima \o/) for us and slap a red color on our icon.

Competing with RDM, SMN and BLM for the Caster Ranged DPS slot would be more viable.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I don't believe this would make AST OP at all but what are you guys thoughts?

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My honest assessment: This would make WHM+AST pairings very powerful in low end content, but would limit viability in high end content (Where Noct AST already struggles to compete with SCH at all).

yes, it is op

I'd only want shields from AST/SCH to stack if they were both nerfed to appropriate levels to compensate and if WHM got an overheal cooldown to help with their lack of mitigation. That would mean SCH would give up Critlo and Noct would have its shield potency normalized to match. Succor AND Noct Helios would both be nerfed to 150 shield potency, which is what it was in HW. Hell I'd be fine if it was nerfed further than that.

The only reason I don't want your exact proposed changes is because I feel that AST should get the stance swap as a pair of cooldowns, not as an always on thing. Having to pick between the two is a meaningful choice and should continue to matter.

The two cooldowns I'd propose are as thus, along with two other notes to help facilitate their use:

1) An Emergency Tactics-style stance swap for the next Aspected spell you cast. Just the swap. No additional benefits. Lasts 15s or until used. 20s Cooldown. Functionally very similar to Emergency Tactics.

2) Take Largesse's 20% healing potency and swap the AST into the other Sect temporarily while benefiting from the healing bonus. No additional benefits. Same 20s duration. 120s cooldown.

3) These abilities stack together, allowing you to get 1-2 spells in your original sect under the healing bonus.

4) Remove the healing potencies on both sects and balance all of the aspected and non-aspected healing spells around a single baseline value. This can be between WHM and SCH in healing potency on the non-aspected spells, and equal on the aspected ones.

Not sure why people keep suggesting doing away with ASTs sects. They're the strength of the job and what allows it to synergise with any other healer.

Nocturnal sect nerds a bit of a rejig, but not majorly, and they dont need to, and shouldnt, stack with SCH shields.

They should stack with themselves though, in that a Helios shield (200 potency) and a Benefic shield (500 potency) should stack for a 700 potency shield, instead of allowing you to mistakenly replace a 500 shield with a smaller 200.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Not sure why people keep suggesting doing away with ASTs sects. They're the strength of the job and what allows it to synergise with any other healer.

Nocturnal sect nerds a bit of a rejig, but not majorly, and they dont need to, and shouldnt, stack with SCH shields.

They should stack with themselves though, in that a Helios shield (200 potency) and a Benefic shield (500 potency) should stack for a 700 potency shield, instead of allowing you to mistakenly replace a 500 shield with a smaller 200.

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The fact is no matter how strong Noct's shields are, they don't really solve the problem with AST's lack of passive regeneration in Noct. And the shields don't overwrite if they're from the same player unless the original is smaller. The sect swapping would solve this problem, but I don't think AST needs to have them combined into one overpowered heal. They just need the ability to swap via a couple cooldowns, as I suggested. The ET one covers Fairy-level tank healing in Noct and most shield uses in Diurnal. The Largesse replacement covers O4/8/12S level big heal requirements regardless of what sect you need.

This way the sect you use is mostly a preference thing rather than limiting what the class is capable of majorly. Sometimes you want a Noct Benefic shield in a SCH/AST comp because it's more reliable than Critlo for some busters. The worst that would happen is Noct is used more in prog while Diurnal sees more use in speed runs, regardless of the other healer. Not really a bad thing overall.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Not sure why people keep suggesting doing away with ASTs sects. They're the strength of the job and what allows it to synergise with any other healer.

Nocturnal sect nerds a bit of a rejig, but not majorly, and they dont need to, and shouldnt, stack with SCH shields.

They should stack with themselves though, in that a Helios shield (200 potency) and a Benefic shield (500 potency) should stack for a 700 potency shield, instead of allowing you to mistakenly replace a 500 shield with a smaller 200.

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For me personally, the sects are a mark of S-E's inability to design a unique healer concept. Diurnal represents healing like a White Mage while Nocturnal represents healing like a Scholar. It makes it difficult to balance when there are only two healing concepts but three healers. If AST had been a bit more unique in their healing kit, the complaints of healer balance would be different. Right now all we see in the healer balance front is either AST encroaching on WHM or vice versa, or AST encroaching on SCH or vice versa. It's less pronounced on the AST vs SCH front but it's there.

I feel I wouldn't be the only one to think that, because of S-E's design decision for AST's kit, there is a lack of confidence in S-E's design team when they (eventually) pitch the fourth healer for the game.

If they remove the Sects (or made it an active buff instead of a passive buff) and made AST a more vanilla healer with the capability to buff the raid, I would be a lot happier. I feel there are quiet a few people who would feel the same. Maybe not necessarily a vanilla healer with buffs but just something that makes AST more unique than WHM and SCH respectively.

If Noct AST needs a passive regen/heal like SCH fairy, how about changing synastry?
So synastry will become a permanent buff on a single target like in PVP (with 10 s CD to change the target).
The effect [Nocturnal]: Heal target with potency 50-100 (to make t even with SCH fairy) every time the AST do an action like benefic, malefic, combust, draw, etc.
The effect [Diurnal]: Give target 10-15% HP shield (stackable with another shield) with 15% change every time the AST do an action like benefic, malefic, combust, draw, etc.

Adding a stance swap as a CD will help Noct AST to compete with SCH whispering down but maybe give it a 1 minute CD?
The effect [Eclipse]: Change AST sect during battle from Nocturnal -> Diurnal or Diurnal -> Nocturnal.
The effect only applies to the next one aspected spell (benefic or helios).

Why are players concerned with Noct AST having a passive regen? Any situation where you would be in Nocturnal Sect, your would have a WHM in the party (because you’re never in Noct Sect with a SCH because the shields do not synergize). So you would have regens from your co-healer. And nothing in this game does enough outgoing damage to warrant doubling up on regens—even Ultimate. It would just be an overheal doubling up at that point.

Because SCH has a fairy which gives a passive healing.
The fairy helps heal the tank and give the co-healer time to dps more without casting regen on tanks especially if the tank only receive auto attacks.
The co-healer only need to cast regen when the tank eats a lot of damage.
Also SCH has fey union which heals more.
This is why SCH became the current healer meta.

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Because SCH has a fairy which gives a passive healing.
The fairy helps heal the tank and give the co-healer time to dps more without casting regen on tanks especially if the tank only receive auto attacks.
The co-healer only need to cast regen when the tank eats a lot of damage.
Also SCH has fey union which heals more.
This is why SCH became the current healer meta.

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Regen is used to mitigate the auto-attacks. It’s the responsibility of the regen healer to cast it on the MT to mitigate them.

If you’re casting a Regen to mitigate a large amount of damage, you are healing incorrectly. You don’t use Regen after a tank takes a 60,000 buster; you use either an oGCD to top them up or you cast a GCD heal (Cure II/Benefic II).

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Regen is used to mitigate the auto-attacks. It’s the responsibility of the regen healer to cast it on the MT to mitigate them.

If you’re casting a Regen to mitigate a large amount of damage, you are healing incorrectly. You don’t use Regen after a tank takes a 60,000 buster; you use either an oGCD to top them up or you cast a GCD heal (Cure II/Benefic II).

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On the other hand, it's both healer's responsibility to keep everyone, including the main tank, alive. You do feel the difference of not having two regens on a tank in Savage and Ultimate. There are high mobility/AoE phases that you don't have the time to babysit the tank's HP while keeping everyone else alive that they don't want to move into your AoE range for. Precasting two regens on them solves these issues. SCH's Fairies both contribute to this passively at no MP or GCD cost but doesn't get the benefit of getting to regen multiple targets. WHM and Diurnal AST both have ways to do this via their GCD and can multi-regen both tanks in two-boss fights. Whispering Dawn also exists as an AoE regen on a far lower cooldown than Collective Unconscious and Asylum at a strong enough potency to match a WHM and Diurnal AST using Medica II and Diurnal Helios respectively.

If you want to make up for the auto damage, you basically have to sacrifice more GCDs than a WHM would to make up for the disparity in Noct Sect. GCDs you sometimes don't have.

Playing Noct AST in duty finder when the WHM doesn't regen is absolutely awful for this reason. It's worse in Savage because you and the tanks have to make up for it.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

On the other hand, it's both healer's responsibility to keep everyone, including the main tank, alive. You do feel the difference of not having two regens on a tank in Savage and Ultimate.

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Even in Savage and Ultimate, you do not need to stack double regens, be it on the party or on a tank—Medica II + Di Aspected Helios is overkill; Whispering Dawn + CU is overkill; Whispering + Di Aspected Helios + CU is definitely overkill (our AST/SCH actually did this for Garuda cleanses during prog and the overheal was 50~60%). It just isn’t necessary. Speaking as someone who has done the content, double regens end up being an overheal more times than not, and any time you’re overhealing means you’re wasting your resources that could be better used elsewhere.

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There are high mobility/AoE phases that you don't have the time to babysit the tank's HP while keeping everyone else alive that they don't want to move into your range for.

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If people aren’t moving in for heals, that’s on them. Not on you. And it doesn’t mean Noct AST suddenly needs more tools to make dealing with that easier.

For high mobility situations, you either master slidecasting, or you make use of other tools at your disposal (Swiftcast or Lightspeed—the latter of which has made AST better than WHM for fights where you have to do a lot of moving, such as Final Omega).

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SCH's Fairies both contribute to this passively at no MP or GCD cost but doesn't get the benefit of getting to regen multiple targets. WHM and Diurnal AST both have ways to do this via their GCD and can multi-regen both tanks in two-boss fights. Whispering Dawn also exists as an AoE regen on a far lower cooldown than Collective Unconscious and Asylum at a strong enough potency to match a WHM and Diurnal AST using Medica II and Diurnal Helios respectively.

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Again: double (and triple) regens end up being more of an overheal than not. There is no content that requires you to stack multiple regens to keep the party (or the main tank) alive. Not even Savage or Ultimate, and especially not casual content.

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If you want to make up for the auto damage, you basically have to sacrifice more GCDs than a WHM would to make up for the disparity in Noct Sect. GCDs you sometimes don't have.

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If you’re a Noct AST, you don’t spam shields to mitigate autos. You pre-shield for tankbusters and AOE raid damage, but you do not spam them. They just aren’t MP efficient. The same goes for SCH and Adlo/Succor. Auto damage should be mitigated by a Regen, which, if you’re paired with a WHM, it is their responsibility to apply. Not yours. If you aren’t paired with a WHM, then you should be in Diurnal Sect yourself, not Noct.

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Playing Noct AST in duty finder when the WHM doesn't regen is absolutely awful for this reason. It's worse in Savage because you and the tanks have to make up for it.

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And it’s the WHM’s responsibility to regen. If they aren’t doing it, then that is not the fault of a Noct AST. Someone playing a job incorrectly doesn’t mean you need to give another job tools to make up for someone not playing their own job correctly. Giving AST more tools like the ones that have been suggested in this thread will just make it far more valuable in content than WHM, which is already struggling against AST enough as it is (and who has no hope of competition against SCH).

Personally, I call out WHMs that I don’t see using Regen when I’m in Noct Sect. I do not think I need a passive regen a la a SCH fairy to make the healing in Noct easier.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Even in Savage and Ultimate, you do not need to stack double regens, be it on the party or on a tank—Medica II + Di Aspected Helios is overkill; Whispering Dawn + CU is overkill; Whispering + Di Aspected Helios + CU is definitely overkill (our AST/SCH actually did this for Garuda cleanses during prog and the overheal was 50~60%). It just isn’t necessary. Speaking as someone who has done the content, double regens end up being an overheal more times than not, and any time you’re overhealing means you’re wasting your resources that could be better used elsewhere.

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I've done it on the main tank only so I can focus my attention elsewhere. That's it. I agree that in an ideal scenario, you wouldn't even use anything but the fairy to heal the main tank. That's not what happens though.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If people aren’t moving in for heals, that’s on them. Not on you. And it doesn’t mean Noct AST suddenly needs more tools to make dealing with that easier.

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There are situations like Akh Morn on O8S where the party takes a bunch of AoE and you don't necessarily want the main tank to turn the boss to get them in there. I'm aware of the 'Stand in the Cure III/Star or you're fucked' situations. Hell some of the movement I do on SMN is a compromise between what makes the healers' lives easier and what helps me see the fight better. There are spots in Kefka and O7S where the tanks and DPS would be split up but may require a minor HoT prepared beforehand just to minimize time spent healing them in order to focus on something else more important, like mines and adds, or Kefka clones. Those are the situations I'm referring to. Not the BLM who doesn't want to move whatsoever. Though we have one of those, too.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

For high mobility situations, you either master slidecasting, or you make use of other tools at your disposal (Swiftcast or Lightspeed—the latter of which has made AST better than WHM for fights where you have to do a lot of moving, such as Final Omega).

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For high mobility high healing situations WHM has to plan their few AoE cooldowns in advance for the most part. I've seen ours pre-pop Asylum where they want people to wind up just to keep it rolling on the tank for a few ticks in the meantime, tack Regen (not Medica II) on players they won't be able to reach for significant periods of time to deal with positioning requirements for mechanics even if the first two ticks were useless, Cure III bomb others they can reach that naturally stack up together and set up PI in the process, and hold Assize for that exact moment where players can collapse in to get that extra safety top off even if it meant losing a use or two over the fight as a whole in prog. It was basically required to use all of those at specific points for Forsaken on them if they wanted to hold up Swiftcast for raises. Which they did.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Again: double (and triple) regens end up being more of an overheal than not. There is no content that requires you to stack multiple regens to keep the party (or the main tank) alive. Not even Savage or Ultimate, and especially not casual content.

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I'm aware that AoE hots aren't worth stacking up generally speaking. The single target ones, however, are in some situations. Lengthy multi-hit busters are a thing. A lot of the HoT based AoE cooldowns actually can handle back to back AoE they have no business handling with maybe a single medica-level AoE heal added in at the right time.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you’re a Noct AST, you don’t spam shields to mitigate autos. You pre-shield for tankbusters and AOE raid damage, but you do not spam them. They just aren’t MP efficient. The same goes for SCH and Adlo/Succor. Auto damage should be mitigated by a Regen, which, if you’re paired with a WHM, it is their responsibility to apply. Not yours. If you aren’t paired with a WHM, then you should be in Diurnal Sect yourself, not Noct.

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Where did I say Noct was spamming shields specifically to make up for the loss of their HoTs? I said they would spend more GCDs, yes, but that does not imply they'll only use Noct Benefic to do so. They would top off a tank via Benefic I/II where possible, not those. You're clearly assuming I don't know what the spells do. The only reason you'd ever use a Noct Shield that way in that degree is if the tank was dipping below half HP, you knew you had to move, and knew it wouldn't lead to overhealing when you could heal them with a Benefic I/II later because the autos would break the shield in time. This kind of situation happens when the other healer isn't doing their job, yes, but it also happens when the tank's trying to get damage in too. Sometimes you just want the tank to be at a comfortable HP level until the actual problem mechanic happens and double regen does that for you with no extra effort on your part.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And it’s the WHM’s responsibility to regen. If they aren’t doing it, then that is not the fault of a Noct AST. Someone playing a job incorrectly doesn’t mean you need to give another job tools to make up for someone not playing their own job correctly. Giving AST more tools like the ones that have been suggested in this thread will just make it far more valuable in content than WHM, which is already struggling against AST enough as it is (and who has no hope of competition against SCH).

Personally, I call out WHMs that I don’t see using Regen when I’m in Noct Sect. I do not think I need a passive regen a la a SCH fairy to make the healing in Noct easier.

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Whether it's a WHM not using a regen or a SCH AFK spamming Broil II or a Tank sitting in Shield Oath, things happen. Dutyfinder pugs is not the place to look for others to rely on. SE has a tendency to make sure all healers have what they need to handle that content and not give a damn beyond that.

WHM's problems higher level content are the fault of SE being unwilling to give them ways to work around them, but I'd want them to do it in a way catered to WHM's current strengths. I'd be just as happy to see WHM get more non-shield mitigation, like their own version of Fey Covenant. They deserve to have access to better healing cooldowns through stronger Lily effects and better forms of generation. If they must get a shield cooldown, there are ways to go about it that still fit WHM's pure healer niche, such as giving them Divine Seal back with an additional effect cooldown that lets them specifically overcap people's HP temporarily, or making Divine Benison AoE but restricting that ability to a specific Lily count. SE's claim that they're the 'basic' healer is why it's in the spot it is at the moment.

I don't have a problem with Healer homogenization, so long as the way that's individually accomplished is interesting. AST gets stance swapping. SCH gets the fairy and Aetherflow. WHM gets Lilies. SE doesn't want to change up fights enough to make some healers clearly better, but does like to cater to the problems of certain classes over others, which is what resulted in this healer disparity issue happening two expansions in a row. Pretending that AST doesn't need some of the tools SCH already has to make it better with WHM specifically because 'it has better shields' is flat out untrue. The same way that it's untrue to say WHM is good because it has the best mana management and AoE Healing cause Thin Air and Cure III are so strong.

Neither is correct or practical in practice.

AST needs limited sect swapping. WHM needs love.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

For me personally, the sects are a mark of S-E's inability to design a unique healer concept. Diurnal represents healing like a White Mage while Nocturnal represents healing like a Scholar. It makes it difficult to balance when there are only two healing concepts but three healers. If AST had been a bit more unique in their healing kit, the complaints of healer balance would be different. Right now all we see in the healer balance front is either AST encroaching on WHM or vice versa, or AST encroaching on SCH or vice versa. It's less pronounced on the AST vs SCH front but it's there.

I feel I wouldn't be the only one to think that, because of S-E's design decision for AST's kit, there is a lack of confidence in S-E's design team when they (eventually) pitch the fourth healer for the game.

If they remove the Sects (or made it an active buff instead of a passive buff) and made AST a more vanilla healer with the capability to buff the raid, I would be a lot happier. I feel there are quiet a few people who would feel the same. Maybe not necessarily a vanilla healer with buffs but just something that makes AST more unique than WHM and SCH respectively.

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I think the dual sects represent a very good way of balancing three healers between two roles. There may be an issue with the game itself being set up with only two healer roles but AST fits into that incredibly well.
Its my favourite aspect about my second main class, and I'd be incredibly pissed off if it was removed.

If AST was changed into a vanilla healer with buffs as you say, those buffs would have to be very significant, and include both HoTs and shields.

I think reducing the regen and including a 5%damage down on aspected benefic/helios would allow them to remove the stances. And that way the damage mitigation can actually be extended with time dilation and celestial opposition.

I doubt we will ever get rid of
SCH/Ast comp unless they butcher sch shields and the cards
A healer shield that can basically make you invincible if they crit
Other is basically a DPS increase

How can WHM or a new healers compete with that

The issue is AST is already OP. Having to choose sects is one of the job's few drawbacks, and even then you can still kind of cheat a sect by casting a regen or shield prior to engagement, and then switch to the opposite sect. It's not a huge edge, but one that no other healer has, adding to AST OPness.

I could see something like this if AST needed help, but right now it seriously does not need any help. The only issue AST has right now is solo play because the card gimmick and abilities like Earthly Star seriously lose their flavor here. Jobs like AST need challenging content in order to shine because nearly all their abilities are structured around group play.

I'll just leave this here:
https://i.gyazo.com/thumb/1200/0fa53...cbb686-png.jpg
credits: The Balance Discord




edit: in case someone wants some further inside here is the one and only big brain healer guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...LDaOmZY8/edit#

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The issue is AST is already OP.

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SCH is OP. AST and WHM are competing against one another because of it. AST is the better one between those two, but SCH is the actual problem. The outlier that AST is trying to compete with that it realistically can't. And WHM can't compete with either without a serious overhaul to Lilies and adding the right cooldowns to tighten up the utility gap. You can buff AST's ability to contribute in this manner to help it alongside WHM without majorly impacting its use in SCH/AST comps. At best sometimes Noct AST's shields are used for tank busters while SCH retains AoE shield priority. That's it.

AST/WHM needs the extra regens more than SCH/AST needs the reliable shield.

SCH is the OP one.
Embrace -> passive regen + rouse buff
whispering down -> aoe healing
Fey union -> basically like spamming mini cure/benefic to target
This combination makes the burden for both healers lighter.
It is like Eos says "do not worry just keep dpsing or doing another stuff (like raising), I will handle the heal"
Is it possible for WHM/AST to do this?

I think SE starting to reduce SCH power by lowering both embrace and whispering dawn potency compared to HW.
But they are still OP until now.

SCH was nerfed during 4.0. They had weaker shields and more mana cost and barely any aoe dps, but then barely anybody play the job anymore. Even world first deltascape was done with whm/ast. Once sch shields become equal with ast, then other toolkit surpassed what nocturnal astro bring. If shield are stronger, it is easier survive certain mechanics. It is really hard balance between those two. I think nocturnal astro just need singletarget healing over time effect. Benefic 2 should turn into shield version like Adlo and Aspected Benefic should be regen regardless your stance.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I think the dual sects represent a very good way of balancing three healers between two roles. There may be an issue with the game itself being set up with only two healer roles but AST fits into that incredibly well.
Its my favourite aspect about my second main class, and I'd be incredibly pissed off if it was removed.

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It's not a really good way to balancing the roles because if the roles are too similar, it means the inferior option will always be kicked to the curb because why bring the inferior option to the fight? At least if the themes of the healing are different, it's easier to make arguments about why you should bring X healer to X situation and Y healer to Y situation.

Also the sects represent a balancing problem about AST itself as the developers have to balance between N.AST and D.AST.

*Points to Amelia's post on the previous page*

In my mind, the sects just represent a humongous blunder on the healer developers as it shows their inability to think outside of the already defined roles and choose to take the easy road in an attempt to not shake the balance. However, the balance is even more upset now due to the fact the kits between HoT healer and Shield healer are too similar.

I was personally hoping AST would be made into a dedicated HoT healer like Resto Druids were in WoW. Sad that didn't come to fruition .-.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

If AST was changed into a vanilla healer with buffs as you say, those buffs would have to be very significant, and include both HoTs and shields.

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I don't think you understand what I meant with "buffs" and my comment. If they turned AST into a vanilla healer, this means their heals would have very little frills. No HoTs, no shields, just raw healing. Their position as a healer role would be a buffing Healer in the sense that it would augment the team to do better - it already does this through the cards they use. Focus on the cards more and don't give them any special effects to their heals. There, now it's more unique from both WHM and SCH.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

It's not a really good way to balancing the roles because if the roles are too similar, it means the inferior option will always be kicked to the curb because why bring the inferior option to the fight? At least if the themes of the healing are different, it's easier to make arguments about why you should bring X healer to X situation and Y healer to Y situation.

Also the sects represent a balancing problem about AST itself as the developers have to balance between N.AST and D.AST.

*Points to Amelia's post on the previous page*

In my mind, the sects just represent a humongous blunder on the healer developers as it shows their inability to think outside of the already defined roles and choose to take the easy road in an attempt to not shake the balance. However, the balance is even more upset now due to the fact the kits between HoT healer and Shield healer are too similar.

I was personally hoping AST would be made into a dedicated HoT healer like Resto Druids were in WoW. Sad that didn't come to fruition .-.



I don't think you understand what I meant with "buffs" and my comment. If they turned AST into a vanilla healer, this means their heals would have very little frills. No HoTs, no shields, just raw healing. Their position as a healer role would be a buffing Healer in the sense that it would augment the team to do better - it already does this through the cards they use. Focus on the cards more and don't give them any special effects to their heals. There, now it's more unique from both WHM and SCH.

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Without either HoTs or shields, AST would be useless as a healer, especially in light party content, and in high end content they would rely entirely on their co-healer to keep everyone alive.
Like i said, the buffs would have to be very substantial, at the very least theyd need a damage reducing buff that wasnt rng or on cooldown, and was more effective than just 10%.

Youre approaching this from a meta mindset, sure theres always going to be an outlier that's inferior and is not chosen over the other superior options as far as meta is concerned. You cant escape that no matter how well you balance them, people will work out whichnobe is superior and take it.
The main thing is that any combination of jobs has to be viable in all content, whether one option is technically superior or not is secondary.
AST dual sects allows for exactly that, they can fill the void of either of the other two healers in whatever content theyre brought into.

Like i said, the limitations are the system itself, AST makes the most of what its got to work within that system.

Not that this makes much difference, AST job quests specifically involve casting Nocturnal Aspected Benefic in order to erect a shield. Its never losing shields, and due to Diurnal being superior, its probably never losing HoTs either.

Whats more likely, is AST stays roughly how it is, and our new healer, likely Dancer if the rumours are to be beleived, will break the mould as a buffing healer, with non-rng mitigation and fast, cheap heals that can keep up with a lack of HoTs.

I'd be happy if 5.0 (with or without a new healer) would break that Shield vs Regen healing duet, and focus on something about job identity.
I'd love to see them making a pure buff/debuff and time magic for AST, with the versatility of regens and shields if it comes to that (I think I'd like a 5.0 ability that would allow you switch into the other sect for a limited duration, with appropriate cooldown on that ability), make SCH a mitigation-focused class (with shields but not limited to that), and find that true identity of WHM (I'm not sure about that yet). So that all healers would be able to put out the required amount of healing in their own ways, and have a stronger share of raid utility (buffing and debuffing, interesting DPS etc.)