Hi everyone, I am getting addicted again to play SMN, I see after they nerf radiant shield many people prefer Garuda over Ifrit. Contagion it’s pretty appreciated by healers that DPS too xD still Ifrit is suppose to deal more dmg. I am getting crazy now and I still have to decide which magic creature to use. I see two new updates opener over the net, one that uses Garuda all fight and another that use Garuda just in the opener and than swap quickly to Ifrit. So which is better? And especially why? Or in which circumstances?
I am more propense to opt for Ifrit but I am willing to change mind.
Please let’s have a kind and polite debate among Summoners, no salt or fighting among you, thanks (:
SMN and the 4.4 update rotation! :)
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10-25-2018, 06:20 AMJohnSealSMN and the 4.4 update rotation! :)
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10-25-2018, 08:44 AMZerathor
I believe they're relatively close on output now. If you utilize snapshotting your DoTs and bahamut with contagion garuda is very potent. I believe the main appeal ifrit has is providing more r4 procs. I suppose it's up to preference at this point. Their gap isn't as big anymore especially if contagion is properly utilized.
If your party ever has another caster though, garuda wins by default. -
10-25-2018, 05:31 PMMansion
Tsundere Imouto updated her guide for 4.4 and does a great job explaining the potency of efficient use of Garuda, you can check that there :
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...y0TrCa0qg/edit
Hope this helps! -
10-25-2018, 07:40 PMNeela
Talking bout updates... any news bout „AkhMorning.com“ ?...
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10-26-2018, 12:46 AMJohnSeal
Honestly always been a Garuda fan :D btw yes I read “Tsu Imouto’s” guide but I saw also another.
Anyway trying few time I just feel the opener to be slower that the one before, probably is just me for a matter of habit idk, plus this rotation seems too much based on contagion in fact everything rotate on allign it with your most powerful skills a bit like the MCH with wildfire. -
10-26-2018, 03:11 AMlulunami
Garuda-egi is basically use all your burst after she uses Contagion compared to Ifrit-egi and baiting for Ruin IV procs. You just have to micro-manage Garuda a bit so she will reliably use Contagion every 60 seconds to align with Aetherflow, Bahamut, DWT, and 60s-2m raid buffs.
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10-26-2018, 04:16 AMChaoticCrimson
This update makes me realize how spoiled I was with Radiant Shield...
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11-03-2018, 09:28 PMKDSilver
Hello.
I'd like to know if someone could explain.
With those new rotation update, I tried playing Garuda, but it happened to be a dps loss for me.
Does someone know what I could be doing wrong?
I switched back to only play Ifrit for now since I really was doing something bad with Garuda so... -
11-04-2018, 12:35 AMSylvain
Seriously if we could make garuda cast all her skills on CD but Contagion that'd just be amazing
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11-04-2018, 03:29 AMNeela
@Silver
while sicfrit provided procs and mirrored dmg randomly u have to either have to micromanage ruda with con right before your burst phases manually or use the petswap opener and try to stay aligned to rudas con-Intervalls/rotation: / -
11-04-2018, 03:59 AMKDSilver
Is it okay to cut Rouse (with around still 7s left to the buff) to summon bahamut earlier because of contagion ?
What do I do with pet skill ?
Do I wait Rouse to be up to use those or do I use them whenever they're ready?
I'm doing about 200+ dps with Ifrit than Garuda right now so I assume I'm really doing thing badly with Ruda. -
11-04-2018, 04:04 AMLunaxia
Finding the new opener/ rotation pretty fiddly on controller, I'm no orange parser so I might just stick with Sicfrit given I usually PUG anyway.
I'm finding DoTs difficult to manage, though - they either just fall off pre or post Bahamut and the timing feels too tight for comfort compared to using it during Bahamut for the Wyrmwave. -
11-04-2018, 05:18 AMKDSilver
pre-bahamut dots is manual refresh. post-bahamut is with tri-disaster
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11-04-2018, 06:07 AMZetsumei_Tsunarashi
Last I checked, contagion can't be used with bahamut because the debuff falls off as soon as garuda leaves the field. Was this changed?
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11-04-2018, 07:59 AMKDSilver
It doesn't falls off.
That happen if you only choose to display your own debuff on the target. Garuda being replaced by Bahamut, it's weird, but it's not considered as our own debuff anymore, but it's still here (can be checked by using focus target) -
11-04-2018, 10:15 AMLunaxiaI know, it's the DoTs falling off before one of the refreshes that's my problem. I either apply the manual ones early enough not to fall off and they drop just before TD, or I meet TD by applying them a second too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by KDSilver
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11-04-2018, 12:38 PMNemekhIt is still being worked on, there have just unfortunately been some delays. My family had a lot of deaths this past month; several friends also passed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neela
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11-04-2018, 04:19 PMSunako
If you are gonna use Bahamut for contagion, that mean you can not use tri-disaster for ww triggers? Or are you gonna use manually dots after second tri-disaster. If you delay contagion for basic bahamut rotatio, it not have raid synergy anymore, so it is not good either. If you use manually dots during 2 min timers that mean your 2 min raid synergy hurt as well and you can not weave certain skills during dwt stance. Another thing is rouse not have synergy anymore during 1 min timers. It probably have better 3min timers for battle litany and voice, but idk.
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11-05-2018, 06:36 PMNeelaooh rly sorry to hear that... all the best tho :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemekh
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11-05-2018, 11:03 PMOsmond
I get that Garuda is pretty much the main pet to be up nowadays, but notice a DPS loss keeping it up long term even with contagion every 60secs for festers and/or demi-bahamut attacks w/ festers. I know potency is important in the long term. Seeing the difference in raids, ifrit still looks the best choice overall because of the potency of it's attacks.
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11-05-2018, 11:13 PMNeelaI guess the main reason why people still have worse numbers with ruda are mostly they never were used to micromanage pets at all while con now need a bit more attention to be effective than braindead sicfrit - its also a raid-buff so its not just about your personal dps which maybe drops a bit but still buffs caster-mates, healers and even Paladin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
but okay... meh "my" dps dropped down so I get back to sicfrit heu heu... : / -
11-05-2018, 11:46 PMOsmondIf that's how you perceive the comment then....ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neela
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11-06-2018, 12:05 AMNeela
its no offense to you just a general call tho - if u take a look at all the smn threads since radiant got nerfed its always the same: although the balance gurus say Garuda now is on pair or even on top of Ifrit in the right comp/fights - most of the comments are "well I know but my dmg dropped" so its not because ruda is still worse its about people are not used to rudas clunky casts/ques and managing con theirselves.
"Ifrit still works better for me" is just an excuse somehow... cause until now pet management wasn't a thing to consider - to align it the right way without loss needs practice and learnings again... but yet again its way easier to stick with sicfrit telling yourself "its just better" : / -
11-06-2018, 05:18 AMChaoticCrimsonAw man, I'm really sorry to hear that. I admit I was interested to hear what your thoughts were on the current state of SMN, but irl stuff takes absolute precedence. Take as much time as you need, and don't push yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemekh
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11-06-2018, 05:23 AMKDSilverThat's not an excuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neela
Garuda need more training, so since this change if fairly recent, some people want to stay on solid basis first to at least master fight they don't, and once they'll feel better with ruda's aligment, they start using it more oftent.
Some people may indeed just stay in their confort zone because they don't want to do extra effort, sure, it does exist, but I strongly believe a good portion are just working on it on dummy and easier content first then once they'll feel confident enough with it, they use garuda everytime.
At least, that's what I do, yet, I'm training the ruda apart. -
11-06-2018, 08:32 AMlulunamiQuote:
Originally Posted by Nemekh
Take all the time you need. Thank you for all your help. -
11-07-2018, 08:52 AMOsmond
I have no problem doing garuda. Set up pet macros on placements that can make it easier for me to manage. Looking at the overall situation, ifrit still trumps by it's attack potency even if radiant shield got nerfed. Now if garuda's potency on it's attacks increase then maybe it might be better to use in overall fights.....unless the nxt expansion says it otherwise.
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11-07-2018, 08:46 PMNemekhLooking at pet potency alone is one of the worst ways to look about it due to the fact that Ifrit/Titan vs Garuda do not scale the same. Ifrit's potency is ~60% of Garuda's - Burning Strike + Attack + his ogcds are more damage than Garuda's Wind Blade + oGCDs in a vacuum. But when you throw Contagion against the full rotation the balance tips in favour of Garuda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
Good garuda over good Obey Ifrit is about ~1.3-1.4%ish. Good garuda over yolo Sicfrit is more like ~2.6-2.7%ish when you account for clipping etc.
That's for personal dps before you look at raid dps and buff synergy windows, which will depend on comp for total value. Before with Radiant having damage reflects it tipped the total package in favour of Ifrit in physical comps. The removal of that tipped it to Garuda in effectively all situations when looking at good play. -
11-07-2018, 08:50 PMNemekh
Just wanted to say I appreciate the kind words.
I'm working through what's left on the To Do list for the website, the final few % are taking the longest but the end's in sight. This topic is one covered in the pets section especially since 4.4 resulted in changes.
In the meantime, we do still have all our resources over at The Balance in the SMN channels. The pins will be tweaked up with the site release! -
11-09-2018, 03:08 AMShiroeQuote:
Originally Posted by Nemekh
but you get more procs with Ifrit.., is obey Garuda really worth the hassle? -
11-09-2018, 03:35 AMNemekhIt is. I've always recommended players learn how to use both Ifrit and Garuda. Alas, the majority of people focused almost exclusively on the former post 4.1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroe
I do see it often said that Ifrit generates more procs of R4. The difference in incidence is so slight that it only ever matters to gain one extra proc after enough minutes have passed. All the difference really is in is Shockwave vs Crimson Cyclone's cooldowns. In terms of overall dps it barely matters. -
11-09-2018, 04:09 AMSunakoIfrit attack twice more often, but auto attack itself do not generate any procs. Only Pet Actions generate procs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroe
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11-09-2018, 04:14 AMNemekh
Correct. Ifrit and Titan egi's "Attack" can never result in a Further Ruin proc. Everything else they do, including Devotion, can.
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11-11-2018, 11:37 AMOsmondYeah, I know they don't scale the same. Usually when I view personal dps, I see if it affects the raid overall, to make me a better player in the long term. The moment I've looked into ffxivanalysis via reddit, I saw what I've done wrong and tried a different rotation w/ only garuda on O11S. Saw a huge change cause I thought ifrit was the better choice. I now understand why they said garuda is the best choice, I just didn't know how to use it in rotation until multiple practice dummies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemekh
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11-11-2018, 07:11 PMNemekh
I am very glad to hear that it's been of assistance! Ackwell and I have worked hard on XivAnalysis.com and the Summoner module - with many more tweaks and updates yet to come in the near future.
If you haven't already we have our resources over in the SMN channels over at The Balance discord which covers the use of the different egis, or you can always ask us questions there. Rdps after the Radiant nerf is the first thing we set our minds to work since it's a complicated beast.