Doman Reconstruction: Watchtower issues

Is only me or i was really annoyed with that part.

Instead of making use of the garlean watchtower while they focus on more important issues, they just waste funds on getting specific tools and tons of explosive to destroy a perfectly usable building just because is garlean and build instead a glorious doma building on the very same place with the same functionality(even if they add some extras at the end they could have been added to the old watchtower as well).

If that part was the very last of the reconstruction series i would have acepted it even if it was a waste of DONATED resources (they can do whatever they want with their money though). I understand that they want to recover their identity as a country, but this is like your house being flooded, beg for donations to recover and despite finding a perfectly functional fridge belonging to no one you throw it out and ask for money to buy a new one instead because you dislike the brand of that one.

With all those wasted resources would have been better to build ANOTHER watchtower on any other place and have not 1 but 2 watchtowers (they wont die for having to cope with a garlean building for a while when they are still begging for donations). Even the garden is a far better investiment since there is nothing there at the start and would give people a place to rest and relax

I didnt have an issue with this. They waited to work on the tower until the more important stuff was done. Your fridge analogy isnt really right though. Unless Frigidaire was also responsible for flooding your house in the first place, then tormenting you as you lived in a tent for months waiting on repairs to be done. In that case, yeah you might want a different brand of fridge for your new kitchen. The tower, aside from being an aesthetic mismatch to the rest of the enclave, represented everything bad that happened in the last 30 years. Tearing it down makes a bit of sense.

My issue with the tower is what to put on top. I picked the lighthouse idea, as it seemed practical. Then they agreed with me. Makes me wonder if anyone picked the statue and if they built one, or whether they decided on the more practical application.

If you pick the statue, they'll just dismiss the idea because Hien is not the kind of person to be fond of such, and a NPC adds the lighthouse idea.

I had no issues with tearing down the old watchtower - heck, they have suffered who-knows-what from Garleans, they don't need a visual reminder of them for trauma.

If you want to look at it from a matter of practicality, they don't have the means to keep that thing in usable order indefinitely. Look at their architecture, they're not about and might not even know the large scale metallurgy required to keep that thing standing long term. It's better that they scrap it and re-purpose the metals towards smaller smithing projects in The Yard and then build up their own lighthouse rather than put effort into upkeep a symbol of their oppression just because it serves a practical purpose that could done with less trouble or be a constant, looming symbol of an attempt to erase their culture.

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Originally Posted by Cybylt

If you want to look at it from a matter of practicality, they don't have the means to keep that thing in usable order indefinitely. Look at their architecture, they're not about and might not even know the large scale metallurgy required to keep that thing standing long term. It's better that they scrap it and re-purpose the metals towards smaller smithing projects in The Yard and then build up their own lighthouse rather than put effort into upkeep a symbol of their oppression just because it serves a practical purpose that could done with less trouble or be a constant, looming symbol of an attempt to erase their culture.

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Except they mention the fact that its construction was so good that they were forced to spend a lot of resources to bring it down. Dont forget the fact that Garleans tend their buildings and keep them in good shape and Doma liberation has just happened so it could have been used for years if not decades before the repairs needed were out of doman skill. Garlean architecture is not Allaghan tech and there has been a lot of boasting about Doma blacksmithing skills before to now say: "sorry we suck, we are unable to understand at all a metal structure workings".

We are donating money for Doma to recover. If they want to remove perfectly functional garlean structures without bothering to repurposing it, means that they are getting more money than they need yet they keep begging for more.

This is akin to using NGO funds to blow apart a dictator huge palace for "reasons" after his fall instead of tending the people in need and then saying: "It was needed,it remembered us too much of the dictator so it had preference over anything else. But now give us more money to build another palace over the one we just blow up since the new one wont be reeking of dictatorship"

Once Doma recovers they can eat the garlean buildings for all i care and build golden Hien statues all over the country if they are willing to spend their funds on that, but when people is struggling so hard that need external help is not the moment to be picky with perfectly usable structures. Its like a refugee throwing his plate of fish to the floor cos he hates fish and wants meat instead. Well son, when you can get your own food then you can be picky with food not when others are feeding you for charity

Makes you wonder what Eorzea will do with Baelsar's Wall

What bothers me is that from Yanxia it's still the Garlean tower... Though I don't know why I expected any differently, things have been like this since 2.0 (Wanderer's Palace clearly doesn't fit in what we can see from Bronze Lake, Steps of Faith is remarkably different from what you can see from Coerthas, you can see Idyllshire from the Rival Wings map, but not the Rival Wings map from Idyllshire... etc. etc.)

It makes perfect sense for them to take it down though... It's a reminder of Garlean occupation and it's literally the first thing you see as you enter, and it's not like they "wasted" resources on it either, other than a garden it seems to be the last thing our donations have gone towards, that's hardly putting it ahead of other important projects. Of all the things to be disappointed with regarding the Doman Reconstruction...

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

Makes you wonder what Eorzea will do with Baelsar's Wall

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Given the Eorzean Alliance has made zero progress on clearing out old Castrums with zero reinforcements or solid supply line (how have those Garleans not starved to death yet?), I doubt they have the resources to do anything to Baelsar's Wall. Surprised they had the resources to even take back Ala Mhigo. I wonder if we'll ever get a time skip expansion that can give us an Eorzea without rogue Garlean Castrums standing everywhere...

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Except they mention the fact that its construction was so good that they were forced to spend a lot of resources to bring it down. Dont forget the fact that Garleans tend their buildings and keep them in good shape and Doma liberation has just happened so it could have been used for years if not decades before the repairs needed were out of doman skill. Garlean architecture is not Allaghan tech and there has been a lot of boasting about Doma blacksmithing skills before to now say: "sorry we suck, we are unable to understand at all a metal structure workings".

We are donating money for Doma to recover. If they want to remove perfectly functional garlean structures without bothering to repurposing it, means that they are getting more money than they need yet they keep begging for more.

This is akin to using NGO funds to blow apart a dictator huge palace for "reasons" after his fall instead of tending the people in need and then saying: "It was needed,it remembered us too much of the dictator so it had preference over everything else. But now give us more money to build another palace over the one we just blow up since the new one wont be reeking of dictatorship"

Once Doma recovers they can eat the garlean buildings for all i care and build golden Hien statues all over the country if they are willing to spend their funds on that, but when people is struggling so hard that need external help is not the moment to be picky with perfectly usable structures. Its like a refugee throwing his plate of fish to the floor cos he hates fish and wants meat instead. Well son, when you can get your own food then you can be picky with food not when others are feeding you for charity

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They explicitly cover all of these bases before moving on to this point, though. We have an established center of government, farms, a center of trade with a major export industry and local crafts supplying local efforts, a school, a security force. They're not barely scraping by and we're not donating to give them what they're lacking at this point, or ever, even. We're donating to get stuff done immediately. We're not even donating, we're trading goods that they could use or trade for money in our pocket.

There's also a difference between capability of skill in crafting weapons and cookware and the quantity and scale to work industrial projects. They're not about to go about making girders and siding plates on a smithy's anvil.

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Originally Posted by Cybylt

They explicitly cover all of these bases before moving on to this point, though. We have an established center of government, farms, a center of trade with a major export industry and local crafts supplying local efforts, a school, a security force. They're not barely scraping by and we're not donating to give them what they're lacking at this point, or ever, even. We're donating to get stuff done immediately. We're not even donating, we're trading goods that they could use or trade for money in our pocket.

There's also a difference between capability of skill in crafting weapons and cookware and the quantity and scale to work industrial projects. They're not about to go about making girders and siding plates on a smithy's anvil.

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Correction AFTER the watchtower is when they mentioned they covered the bases, they built some extras on the whateverhernameis gal room and then someone suggested to make a garden, but EVERYTHING is from donations.

We dont donate= doma reconstruction gets stuck, is not like Revenant Toll or Idllyshire that grown by themselves here either you donate some money to keep things moving or everything stops. They are able to do some trading, but thats only because we donate the starting funds

A NGO wont complain if their funds are used to build a park, but they WILL complain if they destroy a building just to make the same building again.

About the maintenance if doma artisans are unable to keep it on a decent state for at least some years then it means they are totally incompetent and would need decades to build a single ship that is far more complex structurally wise even when made of wood.

Im willing to bet that Doman watchtower requires far more effort in maintenance than the old garlean tower and metal structures need years before they start to need anything bigger than a very basic maintenance

And yeah there are also other things that irk me on Doman reconstruction but this one was ridiculious. I was almost fearing the security force will appear after saying they only had stones and sticks as weapons to protect the enclave because they destroyed their garlean made weapons since it reminded them of the ocupation as well

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Originally Posted by Nalien

It makes perfect sense for them to take it down though... It's a reminder of Garlean occupation and it's literally the first thing you see as you enter, and it's not like they "wasted" resources on it either, other than a garden it seems to be the last thing our donations have gone towards, that's hardly putting it ahead of other important projects. Of all the things to be disappointed with regarding the Doman Reconstruction...

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It makes sense to tear it down when they are no longer dependant of donations, not before and its not like they cant remodel it keep it for a few years while they improve current buildings and services THEN when its maintenance starts to be problematic, just tear it apart and build a new one on a far better economic situation. That is a waste of funds that could have been invested on ANYTHING else, you gotta be pragmatic on that situation even if you hate Garlemald not "i prefer to sleep in the open despite pouring because this building is garlean made and i hate everything garlean made!!"

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

you gotta be pragmatic on that situation even if you hate Garlemald not "i prefer to sleep in the open despite pouring because this building is garlean made and i hate everything garlean made!!"

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That's not whats happening though... They put a roof over everyones head long ago... This was very much sold as one of the last, low priority projects... Heck I'm pretty sure one of the NPCs even mentions that they're tearing the tower down for scrap/supplies (I cannot check due to the nature of this content moving people around, the NPC that was standing by the tower is no longer there having completed work on it, I'm 100% sure a NPC was standing there saying they were reusing the steel from the tower though). If you can build a perfectly good tower out of stone, why not scrap the metal one and re-purpose that steel for other projects? Weapons, pots and pans, nails to put together things far more useful. How many buckets did scrapping that tower help produce? We may never know...

I really don't get the objection to this... A garden is purely cosmetic in the same sense replacing the tower because it's Garlean was (although there is nothing to scrap for materials when constructing the garden), and both the tower and garden are the final projects done when everything else that was important is out of the way... I'd rank the tower higher than the garden though, just because it's the first thing travellers are going to see. First impressions and all that, reminding people of the Garlean occupation every time they pop in probably isn't great for moral. I also very much doubt they have sufficient knowledge in metallurgy to adapt the Garlean tower into a lighthouse, which as they mentioned allows people to come into port at night. They needed to build a new tower, and they might as well scrap the unsightly reminder of occupation for parts while doing so.

I didn't really mind, also they already start with tearing down the tower a few weeks earlier, while you're still in the garrison "stage"

But it was a bit ironic if you compare it to the Ananta beast tribe quests, since they have a similar setting of Ala Mhigans wanting to tear down and rebuild the big bridge and castelum over the Velodinya river. Except there we have to help preventing that as it was a horrible idea that would've crippled trade to Ala Mhigo

I thought the bridge was a very different situation. The pro-demolish side having no intention of repurposing anything from the demolition, demolition and reconstruction also represented a massively more complex and time consuming project what with it being a huge, canyon-spanning bridge and closing out the only road to the entirety of the world sending them people and resources.

They also wanted to do this before the establishment their own resources on top of the aforementioned closing down of their own trade route.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

That's not whats happening though... They put a roof over everyones head long ago... This was very much sold as one of the last, low priority projects... Heck I'm pretty sure one of the NPCs even mentions that they're tearing the tower down for scrap/supplies (I cannot check due to the nature of this content moving people around, the NPC that was standing by the tower is no longer there having completed work on it, I'm 100% sure a NPC was standing there saying they were reusing the steel from the tower though). .

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There was idd, Don't remember his name, but he's the hyur one, the one that is now in charge of the garden he said that garleans knows how to built stuff and that they sent the metal to master tsuranuki who was jumping of joy

The lack of an ability to actually erect a statue of Hien is frustrating.

I have mixed feelings in regard to the removal of the tower. I was born in a city that made a lot of money through tourism as a result of being host to a number of Roman structures that had been carefully preserved over the ages. Had those structures been removed after the Romans left then the city in question likely would not have done nearly so well for itself in the modern day.

As an aside, a subtle grave for Tsuyu would be an excellent addition to the area. I find myself wondering if lessons have truly been learned by the Domans in regards to Yotsuyu's torment or if the entire chapter will simply be brushed aside and forgotten about by future generations.

Though perhaps I will be pleasantly surprised once the final touches are made.

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

If you pick the statue, they'll just dismiss the idea because Hien is not the kind of person to be fond of such, and a NPC adds the lighthouse idea.

I had no issues with tearing down the old watchtower - heck, they have suffered who-knows-what from Garleans, they don't need a visual reminder of them for trauma.

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Exactly this... totally agree.

To the OP, I also had no issue whatsoever with this and how the events played out. The reference to Hien was also justified because it really captured his main vein of character.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I have mixed feelings in regard to the removal of the tower. I was born in a city that made a lot of money through tourism as a result of being host to a number of Roman structures that had been carefully preserved over the ages. Had those structures been removed after the Romans left then the city in question likely would not have done nearly so well for itself in the modern day.

As an aside, a subtle grave for Tsuyu would be an excellent addition to the area. I find myself wondering if lessons have truly been learned by the Domans in regards to Yotsuyu's torment or if the entire chapter will simply be brushed aside and forgotten about by future generations.

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They do have an entire castrum across the river should they choose to go down that route in the future.

I was a bit worried that at least Hien himself learned nothing from the whole ordeal since back in 4.2 when he learns the full story of slavery and that he had her former master in his employ and all he could muster from it all was, "Gosh Yotsuyu sure does scare people."

If you have suffered years under a state and cruel ruler would you really want such a thing to stay? Or wouldnt you want to tear it down which would also be symbolic in a way that they are finally truly free of them?

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

I didn't really mind, also they already start with tearing down the tower a few weeks earlier, while you're still in the garrison "stage"

But it was a bit ironic if you compare it to the Ananta beast tribe quests, since they have a similar setting of Ala Mhigans wanting to tear down and rebuild the big bridge and castelum over the Velodinya river. Except there we have to help preventing that as it was a horrible idea that would've crippled trade to Ala Mhigo

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Well take out a bridge and nobody can cross these parts of the land anymore. Thus it would be bad for the trade. (And they did try to change it up with statues and stuff) A watch tower is not that important to trading thus can be taken down.

They also used the bridge as a visual metaphor in a different mannner. The bridge wasn't something made by the Garleans. It was an Ala Mhigan structure and still clearly showed that construction that had the gate and guardhouse slapped on top of it by the Garleans which then gets plastered over with Ala Mhigan imagery and Ananta structural patterning. The layers of local history visualized in the first thing people see coming to the nation.

The tower, symbol of oppression, gets its metal scrapped for tools to enable the greater independence and self-sustainability of Domans, symbols of their freedom.

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Originally Posted by Cybylt

They also used the bridge as a visual metaphor in a different mannner. The bridge wasn't something made by the Garleans. It was an Ala Mhigan structure and still clearly showed that construction that had the gate and guardhouse slapped on top of it by the Garleans which then gets plastered over with Ala Mhigan imagery and Ananta structural patterning. The layers of local history visualized in the first thing people see coming to the nation.

The tower, symbol of oppression, gets its metal scrapped for tools to enable the greater independence and self-sustainability of Domans, symbols of their freedom.

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Well said... and I wish we could continue with more of the reconstruction. There are still parts of Yanxia, especially the great bridge in the south west portion of the map --facing the Castrum, where I wish we could be involved in reconstructing. That bridge needs my donations...

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

But it was a bit ironic if you compare it to the Ananta beast tribe quests, since they have a similar setting of Ala Mhigans wanting to tear down and rebuild the big bridge and castelum over the Velodinya river. Except there we have to help preventing that as it was a horrible idea that would've crippled trade to Ala Mhigo

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As well as the other points discussed already, the Ananta are specifically shown to be good at metalworking, so they be better at keeping the tower maintained over time.

(And who knows, maybe they'll cover over the entire thing with their gorgeous architectural decorations like they've started to do with the bits they remodeled. Wouldn't it look spectacular!)

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

Well said... and I wish we could continue with more of the reconstruction. There are still parts of Yanxia, especially the great bridge in the south west portion of the map --facing the Castrum, where I wish we could be involved in reconstructing. That bridge needs my donations...

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Maybe after Ishgard finishes cleaning up the rubble and Ala Mhigo puts out the fires in the lochs.

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Originally Posted by Annana

Maybe after Ishgard finishes cleaning up the rubble and Ala Mhigo puts out the fires in the lochs.

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The fires...? But how else do you expect your immersion within the Lochs to be maintained? The city itself is almost non existent.

Noone that was under Garlean occupation has direct LOS to the bridge. Everyone living in the Enclave can see that massive Garlean tower to remind them of the occupation. The only people with a direct LOS to the bridge are the Anata and the Miqo tribe in the mountains (the Anata are/were largely indifferent to the Occupation). Ala Mhigo doesn't have LOS to the tower and Refugees camped in the Reach can't see it from there either so it's not in their face. For the Ala Mhigans, it's more of "Out of sight, out of mind" thing.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As an aside, a subtle grave for Tsuyu would be an excellent addition to the area. I find myself wondering if lessons have truly been learned by the Domans in regards to Yotsuyu's torment or if the entire chapter will simply be brushed aside and forgotten about by future generations.

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Any grave for Tsuyu would be somewhere secret, to prevent vandalism from vengeful victims. She may get sympathy from those of us who could see her history, but to most of Doma she's just the evil dictator.

It's Ironic how they essentially groomed their dictator, perhaps some would feel like the guy that owned the brothel if they actually knew that their ways can create this monsters.
I think Hien should full disclose the story of Tsuyu to his ppl so that they can actually learn and improve, as things stand someone like Yotsuyu might come up again, it's easy to say that she choose her path when speaking in a position that is different than hers, but the truth is that humans aren't rational in distress (it is why charlatans are still prolific to this day)

It's sad, but there's a lot of Deliberate Values Dissonance going on with Yotsuyu's story. Brothels, and selling people to work in them isn't illegal in Doma, which is probably a reference to how it was in historical Japan. I really have to wonder how many woman were in Yotsuyu's same situation and didn't end up growing up to be monsters. It's also very obvious that her family was almost as bad as she was. They just didn't have the influence she did. I get the feeling that a lot of what she put the Doman people through were things Yotsuyu learned from her aunt and uncle and brother first. I don't want to say she was too far gone when her aunt and uncle sold her too the brothel, but I get the feeling she would have snapped no matter where she ended up.

The problem with Hian calling attention to Yotsusyu's past is that the way Yotsuyu took her anger out on everyone is very obviously disproportionate to what she went though. Trying to convince an entire nation that the person who tormented them is semi-justified for what they did because the people of the nation, most of who could never have been in a position to do anything about Yotsuyu's situation, let it happen is a really hard sell. I don't see it happening.

The other problem is timing. Doma's infrastructure and culture was decimated by the Imperials. The Domans are going to be spending years rebuilding and reclaiming who they are nation. Inserting the idea that the last Imperial Viceroy was justified in what she did would cause moral to plummet. That's the last thing Doma needs right now.

I can see the truth coming out later, but not when the wounds Yotsuyu gave Doma are so fresh. The important thing is that Hian knows as he's the one in charge of rebuilding Doma. For now, that's enough.

The simple thing is: You might want to try to change such things but there will always be bad people everywhere. I can see them making it a topic and it would be great if nothing like that ever happens again but I also would find it quite unrealistic. No matter how great most people are and how much Hien cares there will alway be those that will hurt others. They should try to talk to the people and that those wont turn away if they see something like that but more than that would go into the realm of fairy tales imo. Even in our modern world we have problems like that.

A grave for her would imo be too much. No matter the past she still committed horrible crimes. Its really bad that there were people mistreading her but that gives her no right at all to kill and torture any other person in this land. Her getting a chance as Tsuyu was probably more than enough for what she had done.

It's very possible that Yotsuyu wasn't the only courtesan working for the Garleans, but I still say that unless you've been in that kind of shit, you can't really judge someone. You really need to be in a position of utter hopelessness to understand. At that point every choice would be better off that your reality even if that means sending your country to hell, a country that allowed your suffering.
It's not something you can really realize when you are not in that position, she said it at the end, that her countrymen decides to turn around to ignore what's rotten to believe that the wrong ins't there. Hien as a leader has to fix this one way or the other because he has witnessed what the old ways lead to. Trye the Garleans were the abilitator to this, but let's say there was no invasion, this would have been the custom forevermore. He knows now and can either pretend nothing happened or take actions, but I guess we won't see it.

So if someone was abused in your city, someone you did not even know, or at that time was not even born and they came back to murder everyone, including your family, would you truly just say: Well I can understand that, lets forgive that person, we are kinda all at fault here and lets built a grave for them?

I mean if she had come back and hurt those people that have hurt her directly then maybe one could feel a bit more sympathy with her motives, but she hurt anyone just because they were born in the country, even if they were not even alive at that time. Your past does not in any way ever absolve you from such horrible crimes.

In the end Hien can only do so much. He should not ignore the problem and should try to change it but hoping that something like that never really happens again is probably too much.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

The problem with Hian calling attention to Yotsusyu's past is that the way Yotsuyu took her anger out on everyone is very obviously disproportionate to what she went though. Trying to convince an entire nation that the person who tormented them is semi-justified for what they did because the people of the nation, most of who could never have been in a position to do anything about Yotsuyu's situation, let it happen is a really hard sell. I don't see it happening.

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It would also be wrong to say that the nation is semi-justified, because honestly, there's not a lot of indication that the nation is at fault. You mentioned that brothels and selling folks into them is not illegal in Doma, but is that actually true? Just because we saw it happen to Yotsuyu doesn't mean that it was above board. Brothels and sexual slavery are illegal in most of the civilized world today - but they still happen, all the same. I might buy that brothels are legal, but the impression I get from the game was that King Kaien was an extremely kind and beloved king. It seems unlikely that even under Garlean occupation he would allow slavery to be a legal thing, sexual or not. No, I'm fairly convinced that Yotsuyu's being sold was definitely a shady affair, not one that is socially or legally acceptable.

All that said, though, Yotsuyu's story is still one worth telling: beat someone down long enough, and they may eventually snap and bite back. The Golden Rule is a good thing; treat others as you would have them treat you. Yotsuyu was stepped on her whole life, and when she obtained the power to do so was all-too happy to step on others in turn. Abuse is a cycle, and the abused often pay it forward and become abusers themselves. These are good lessons to learn, and it would do potential abusers good to be made aware of the kind of extremes to which their actions can lead.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It would also be wrong to say that the nation is semi-justified, because honestly, there's not a lot of indication that the nation is at fault. You mentioned that brothels and selling folks into them is not illegal in Doma, but is that actually true? Just because we saw it happen to Yotsuyu doesn't mean that it was above board. Brothels and sexual slavery are illegal in most of the civilized world today - but they still happen, all the same. I might buy that brothels are legal, but the impression I get from the game was that King Kaien was an extremely kind and beloved king. It seems unlikely that even under Garlean occupation he would allow slavery to be a legal thing, sexual or not. No, I'm fairly convinced that Yotsuyu's being sold was definitely a shady affair, not one that is socially or legally acceptable.

All that said, though, Yotsuyu's story is still one worth telling: beat someone down long enough, and they may eventually snap and bite back. The Golden Rule is a good thing; treat others as you would have them treat you. Yotsuyu was stepped on her whole life, and when she obtained the power to do so was all-too happy to step on others in turn. Abuse is a cycle, and the abused often pay it forward and become abusers themselves. These are good lessons to learn, and it would do potential abusers good to be made aware of the kind of extremes to which their actions can lead.

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My point exactly

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Originally Posted by Alleo

So if someone was abused in your city, someone you did not even know, or at that time was not even born and they came back to murder everyone, including your family, would you truly just say: Well I can understand that, lets forgive that person, we are kinda all at fault here and lets built a grave for them?

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There's a difference between "burial to put a body in the ground" (see Zenos) and "honored memorial" (see Haurchefant), but either way, it's a grave.

Of course, unless it becomes a plot point, we'll never see it anyway. (Did she even leave a body to bury? I forget, but Ysayle and Thordan faded into aether after they died as primals.)

While it's important that Yotsuyu's story is told and learned from and not forgotten, making a grave (or more likely a memorial) to her in the city would be the wrong approach. In time the people might be ready to hear it and regard her with pity, but for now it would be a reminder of those still-raw memories of suffering - every bit as much as the watchtower they've chosen to tear down.

And talking of memorials....

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

There's a difference between "burial to put a body in the ground" (see Zenos) and "honored memorial" (see Haurchefant), but either way, it's a grave.

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Haurchefant's memorial actually isn't a grave either, at least as we'd define it - his body isn't buried there. (It's not pointed out, but Corentiaux at Camp Dragonhead mentions it if you talk to him.) Which seemed an odd thing, particularly as the pre-existing stone cairns are referred to as a graveyard in one of the dragoon quests, but the question got brought up in a Korean Q&A a few weeks back and the answer is rather lovely.

Discussion thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...A-with-Yoshida
Document link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ClxamIIE64ca0/

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Q: Apparently Haurchefant’s body is not buried under his monument. Where exactly is he?

[Yoshida]: To answer this, we probably have to ask the FFXIV lore team. My simple answer is that Haurchefant is part of lineage of Fortemps and I’m sure he was buried with other great peoples of Fortemps.

Within Final Fantasy XIV lore, they do not share the same idea of body in between life and death. Lore-wise, there is the existence of Aether. The reason why warrior of light placed the monument along with shield and flowers in Coerthas Central Highlands was probably because he/she wished Haurchefant’s aetherial being would be able to visit the viewpoint where Ishgard can be seen the best.

We believe a soul, if exists, wouldn’t really be mattered to be connected to where body would be at.

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So (unless the lore team have a different answer), graves are not necessarily physical but "where the person would want to be".

Which I suppose comes back to the question of Yotsuyu - would she even want to be in Doma?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

While it's important that Yotsuyu's story is told and learned from and not forgotten, making a grave (or more likely a memorial) to her in the city would be the wrong approach. In time the people might be ready to hear it and regard her with pity, but for now it would be a reminder of those still-raw memories of suffering - every bit as much as the watchtower they've chosen to tear down.

And talking of memorials....



Haurchefant's memorial actually isn't a grave either, at least as we'd define it - his body isn't buried there. (It's not pointed out, but Corentiaux at Camp Dragonhead mentions it if you talk to him.) Which seemed an odd thing, particularly as the pre-existing stone cairns are referred to as a graveyard in one of the dragoon quests, but the question got brought up in a Korean Q&A a few weeks back and the answer is rather lovely.

Discussion thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...A-with-Yoshida
Document link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ClxamIIE64ca0/



So (unless the lore team have a different answer), graves are not necessarily physical but "where the person would want to be".

Which I suppose comes back to the question of Yotsuyu - would she even want to be in Doma?

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This makes me think about Samurai spoilers:

Musosai was buried with his katana by the Silver Bazaar overlooking the ocean; a place he would have the best view of the ocean.