Stuffed Fridge

Is anyone else sick of this happening? Unless theres another patch that will bring them all back, I'm very sick of Yoshi putting Y'shtola into a fridge for every expansion.

I'm tired of adventuring with children. Especially when their voice acting is bland.

Wrong terminology. What happened to the Scions in 4.4 (and prior instances) is "put on a bus".

"Stuffed in a fridge" is for when a character is disposed of entirely to give another character further motivation or development, thus reducing them to a plot device or plot point. Usually this happens to female characters, in order for male characters to have a reason to go on quests of vengeance or whatever.

For example, Avere was stuffed in a fridge for Edda. Moenbryda was arguably stuffed in a fridge for Urianger. Wilred was totally stuffed in a fridge for us.

Could you be a bit more specific. I have an idea what you mean, but your tribe has no real merit, especially since you seem to be singling out Y'shtola.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Could you be a bit more specific. I have an idea what you mean, but your tribe has no real merit, especially since you seem to be singling out Y'shtola.

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My tribe? I'm singling out Y'shtola because shes been knocked out for 2 expansions in a row. Thancred hasn't and definally not Urianger. But as Yian mentioned the real term would be "Put on the Bus" This is so they dont have to write about them or voice them for majority of the next expansion and can focus on other characters... mainly the two twins.

Are you actually being racist to Miqo'te tho? You're one to talk as a Lalafel. :P

I’m thinking they just don’t know what to do with Y’shtola.

On one hand, she is said to be blind, and using aether to power her sight is supposed slowly killing her. Yet she doesn’t seem to be not using it, or acting like a blind person would at all. Its like this fake blindness or something. They explicity mention this ability as one that will screw her up in the long term, but we haven’t seen any sign of this.
For all the hints and legit reasons of sidelining Y’shtola, they put her in collabs, be subject to the soul shearing lifestream, take Zenos’s blade in the gut, and all in all just “imma stronger nowz” after the major stuff is resolved without her. Its like a character that is described as going through some bad stuff, but its only to make them look good without any hint of debilitation, like a cool scar or something.

Y’shtola’s in a wierd place, seeming both overpowered and sidelined. Though I don’t blame the twins for it. We see the twins go through the pain of a bad outcome, we see their resolve to make things right, to talk to you not as the Warrior of Light, but as a friend. To find what they need or have to buy to get them to where they need to be.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I’m thinking they just don’t know what to do with Y’shtola.

On one hand, she is said to be blind, and using aether to power her sight is supposed slowly killing her. Yet she doesn’t seem to be not using it, or acting like a blind person would at all. Its like this fake blindness or something. They explicity mention this ability as one that will screw her up in the long term, but we haven’t seen any sign of this.
For all the hints and legit reasons of sidelining Y’shtola, they put her in collabs, be subject to the soul shearing lifestream, take Zenos’s blade in the gut, and all in all just “imma stronger nowz” after the major stuff is resolved without her. Its like a character that the is described as going through some bad stuff, but its only to make them look good without any hint of debilitation, like a cool scar or something.

Y’shtola’s in a wierd place, seeming both overpowered and sidelined. Though I don’t blame the twins for it. We see the twins go through the pain, we see their resolve to get things to get done, to find what they need or have to buy to get them to where they need to be.

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Then they should just do what they do to Cid. Put her on another quest. Instead of putting her or the others on deaths door or supposedly dead.

I'm now more curious to what Eloah talking about "your tribe" is he actually saying my concerns dont matter because I'm a miqo'te or is my post # just not high enough? Because that would make me crack up.

I have a bit of a running joke to myself about how Alphinaud is the real protagonist of FFXIV, not the Warrior of Light - he's the main mover of the plot on the protagonists' side, after all, and has gotten more character development than anyone else there as well (from a disaffected child to a well-meaning glory hound to a genuinely heroic diplomat).

After so long in the spotlight I guess they just decided to move it over to his twin sister.

The Warrior of Light is the hero of the story, but not the main protagonist (that seems to be shared between Alphinaud and Alisae), and everyone else is just support.

There are other characters I'd like to be in the spotlight (Urianger, in particular - he always felt underutilized, and were he still alive Papalymo for the same reason) but that's not their role...

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Originally Posted by Khalen_Shield

My tribe? I'm singling out Y'shtola because shes been knocked out for 2 expansions in a row. Thancred hasn't and definally not Urianger. But as Yian mentioned the real term would be "Put on the Bus" This is so they dont have to write about them or voice them for majority of the next expansion and can focus on other characters... mainly the two twins.

Are you actually being racist to Miqo'te tho? You're one to talk as a Lalafel. :P

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Damn you phone auto correct. I didn't mean tribe, it was supposed to read along the lines of "what you discribe", but grrr, I hate my phone now, it never use to do this.

Y'shtola hasn't been 'fridged'. You've misappropriated that term.

Also to add to your interpretation of the twins. Currently, and since the beginning of 2.0 honestly, they are our point of reference NPC. Basically, if this wasn't an MMO, but we still had the same cast, they would be the "main" character; the one whose point of view the player is supposed to see from.

Thanks for spoilers
Please, put a note in a title that it's MSQ spoilers next time

Oh good, people who know TvTropes terms. This makes things ten time easier to talk about...

The Scions collectively seem to be a victim of the the Worf Effect. As in, they're the competent characters that demonstrates how powerful the enemy is by getting beaten by them.

That said, the Scions havn't really been beaten by that many people over the course of the entire game. And the people who do beat them are never portrayed as pushovers. The XIVth Legion, the Ascians, Ul'dahn politics, aether-sickness, slowing down a primal, Zenos, the voice... none of these are "normal problems" that normal people run into. Almost all of them could be considered a result of the Scions sticking with the WoL like glue (or vice-versa). While there are other physically/magicly strong characters, they have other responsibilities that mean they can't commit to fighting for/with the Scions/WoL so they aren't around as many dangerous enemies.

One of the things FFXIV has a hard time showing is how strong the other main supporting characters are compared to the WoL. We are the primal slayer who has defeated gods and worse. No one else has done that kind of thing. All of our allies admit we are stronger then they are. But how strong are they? They themselves are certainly stronger then the average NPC. However, the WoL just can't be beaten every time they come across someone new. That's why Zenos defeating us the first time is such a shock in-game and out-of-game. That's never happened before. Instead, the narrative has to do with other characters who are around a lot (who we know are weaker then us when it come to combat experience) getting beaten.

Just... doing it too much in close succession (Y'shtola gets taken out in 4.0, then gets taken out again in 4.4) makes it feel fake.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Y'shtola hasn't been 'fridged'. You've misappropriated that term.

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I was thinking that “Put on a Bus” would fit Y’shtola’s situation more, seeing as how she isn’t getting killed(and arguably enjoys the most plot armor out of the scions)

On a lighter note, G'raha Tia underwent literal refrigeration to serve as a motivator for Cid (and the WoL to a lesser extent). It just took 5 years for Cid to acknowledge it.

It's really not just Y'sthola. All the scions had this happen in ARR and Y'sthola was the FIRST one back in HW with the others trickling back in for the HW patches. Well Alph was with us the whole way, but among those that got put on the bus she was the first one to come back and the only one to play a role in 3.0.

Yes Y'sthola took a break in 4.0 but the scions in general tend to rotate around. Uriangr mostly plays a background role outside of 3.4. Thancred comes in and out of the spotlight. Lyse got a spotlight in HW but isn't a scion anymore and post HW she'll likely just be the Ala Mhigo representative at council meetings rather than a bit player in the story, just like Aymreric got 'demoted to extra' after HW.

Y'sthola got to play a role in the patch here and while she is on a bus again, so are others. And I wouldn't be surprised if more are in 5.0.

I don't really feel like Y'sthola is being targeted for this more than anyone else really. SE has been juggling the scions for a long time and none of them save Alph have really had a consistent story presence because of it. It's part of the issue of having a single linear story like this, they can't have all the characters present all the time. So why not have one or two get injured here or there, or take them out of commission via this 'calling' in order to make a bit of room, because in addition to the Scions there will likely be other main characters in 5.0 for its story like ShadowHunter/Varis or whoever ends up in the spotlight. I wouldn't be surprised to have Cid take up a central msq role either next expansion.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Also to add to your interpretation of the twins. Currently, and since the beginning of 2.0 honestly, they are our point of reference NPC. Basically, if this wasn't an MMO, but we still had the same cast, they would be the "main" character; the one whose point of view the player is supposed to see from.

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Yeah. I mean in 2.0 I might have maybe had Minfilia contending for 'main character' as the leader of the scions but ARR patches and HW on I'd say Alph is the 'main character' or the closest thing the story has to one outside of the player, and the player is barely a 'character' at all and more a plot device that fights things.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Yeah. I mean in 2.0 I might have maybe had Minfilia contending for 'main character' as the leader of the scions but ARR patches and HW on I'd say Alph is the 'main character' or the closest thing the story has to one outside of the player, and the player is barely a 'character' at all and more a plot device that fights things.

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I can see that, though I feel, in 2.0 at least, that Minfilia is more the "quest giver" "guiding light" or something; where they know "all" and aren't learning with you as a point of reference.

But from what I've heard, Minfilia could be the Point of Reference NPC in 1.0, with Louisoix being the "quest giver". Don't quote me though, never played 1.0

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I can see that, though I feel, in 2.0 at least, that Minfilia is more the "quest giver" "guiding light" or something; where they know "all" and aren't learning with you as a point of reference.

But from what I've heard, Minfilia could be the Point of Reference NPC in 1.0, with Louisoix being the "quest giver". Don't quote me though, never played 1.0

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Mostly I get that vibe because she was the leader of the scions who are the group we work directly with for most of ARR. And while I may be remembering wrong, while Alph was certainly important in ARR I don't recall him really taking center stage as much until the 2.X patches but again it's been a long time so I could be misremembering his role.

The problem with Y'shtola and the Other Scions is that they are too powerful. Unless we face primals, they are much better at doing it than us. So we need them to go away to get tension. Plus we have lots of characters and not all of them are equally developed. And I don't mean tits. I mean character development. So far Alphinaud, Y'shtola and Thancred are the "main characters" with Alphie being the most developed. Alisaie is catching up to her brother slowly but surely. Papalymo is dead, Yugiri and Lyse don't really have much in terms of personality. And now we don't have any Scions for Gridania. I'm also pretty sure Gaius and Alisaie won't be the only ones going to Garlemaldd. We need room for new characters.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

The problem with Y'shtola and the Other Scions is that they are too powerful. Unless we face primals, they are much better at doing it than us. So we need them to go away to get tension. Plus we have lots of characters and not all of them are equally developed. And I don't mean tits. I mean character development. So far Alphinaud, Y'shtola and Thancred are the "main characters" with Alphie being the most developed. Alisaie is catching up to her brother slowly but surely. Papalymo is dead, Yugiri and Lyse don't really have much in terms of personality. And now we don't have any Scions for Gridania. I'm also pretty sure Gaius and Alisaie won't be the only ones going to Garlemaldd. We need room for new characters.

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Are they? I mean they kick butt sure when given the chance but they never seem to really 'outclass' us by a significant degree.

As far as having scions 'for' specific city states I don't think that really matters anymore now that the focus it beyond the initial three city states and now into other lands. In ARR it made sense, in HW and beyond we don't really 'need' a scion assigned to each region anymore story wise.

I'm also not sure I'd say Y'shola is a 'main' character on the same level as the twins, they especially Alph seem more important than Y'shtola to me. She seems more on the level of Thancred ad Popalymo before he died, maybe slightly above them but not eclipsing them. The only thing that really stood out over the others was she was the first one to come back in HW, but still Alph was high above her in importance.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Moenbryda was arguably stuffed in a fridge for Urianger. Wilred was totally stuffed in a fridge for us.

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D:

Direct hit right in the feels.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Just... doing it too much in close succession (Y'shtola gets taken out in 4.0, then gets taken out again in 4.4) makes it feel fake.

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I didn't connect the two until you said so. Last time she was directly injured and sidelined because of it. This time.... something else is going on. A mystery targeting multiple people. Quite different to one person getting injured.


I think it could be just due to the nature of this long-running, episodic plot. Either they introduce new characters all the time, or they stick with the same ones (who might then be repeatedly targeted as the 'longterm character that players will be attached to / worried about'). I'd rather keep the same people as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Are they? I mean they kick butt sure when given the chance but they never seem to really 'outclass' us by a significant degree.

As far as having scions 'for' specific city states I don't think that really matters anymore now that the focus it beyond the initial three city states and now into other lands. In ARR it made sense, in HW and beyond we don't really 'need' a scion assigned to each region anymore story wise.

I'm also not sure I'd say Y'shola is a 'main' character on the same level as the twins, they especially Alph seem more important than Y'shtola to me. She seems more on the level of Thancred ad Popalymo before he died, maybe slightly above them but not eclipsing them. The only thing that really stood out over the others was she was the first one to come back in HW, but still Alph was high above her in importance.

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Alph is his own level currently. But still Y'shtola enjoys the most screentime overall and the most involvment with other storylines (Warring Triads, Alexander...etc) followed closely by Thancred. Alisaie is catching up, but only post HW.

I partly agree with the OP. I am normally quite fine if people get taken out of the story through injuries instead of just outright killing them. The sadness is still there, the character not available for a time and depending on the situation the character itself or others around them can grow. But Ysthola (and in that way Thancred too) just got hurt way too often. And seemingly nothing much changed for her at all.

She is directly struck down by Zenos who normally one hit kills people with his swords. Yet she suffered no consequences for this action. Then we have her eyes that seemingly kill her slowly because she is using aether to see (and this patch shows that she sees totally fine too) but as long as plot does not demand for it to be important its also of no consequence and depending on how they want to go with her we might even find a solution to her problem.

Thancred got taken out twice now too but at least he has suffered from the first one quite a lot. Not being able to use magic or teleport truly hinders him and makes him weaker. The situation with Minfilia and probably his loss of magic also changed his character a bit. Ysthola has none of that imo. Yes she is snarky like Matoya, especially in this patch but imo that is not something that creates a good well written character. At the same time she has so much knowledge, then the power to take down enemies like Magnai, no restriction that truly hinders her right now so seemingly she just might be too powerful for the plot and thus gets taken out a lot. But if such a character only exist for plot points and maybe even a bit it of fanservice then I do wonder why she should stay in the game at all. So SE either kill her off or just finally give her a role in this game and create a deeper character for her that develops through the game. Much more interesting characters got killed for less.

I'm curious as to whether or not we're going to have personally do something to bring them back (Perhaps this ties into the last SB MSQ dungeon somehow?), or if whoever spirited them away is just going to give them back once they've told/shown them what they needed to see or rather kept them out of commission long enough to prevent history from repeating its course.

The fact that Thancred then Urianger and Y'shtola got KO'd right when they were trying to entertain certain ideas seemed a little too convenient.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I partly agree with the OP. I am normally quite fine if people get taken out of the story through injuries instead of just outright killing them. The sadness is still there, the character not available for a time and depending on the situation the character itself or others around them can grow. But Ysthola (and in that way Thancred too) just got hurt way too often. And seemingly nothing much changed for her at all.

She is directly struck down by Zenos who normally one hit kills people with his swords. Yet she suffered no consequences for this action. Then we have her eyes that seemingly kill her slowly because she is using aether to see (and this patch shows that she sees totally fine too) but as long as plot does not demand for it to be important its also of no consequence and depending on how they want to go with her we might even find a solution to her problem.

Thancred got taken out twice now too but at least he has suffered from the first one quite a lot. Not being able to use magic or teleport truly hinders him and makes him weaker. The situation with Minfilia and probably his loss of magic also changed his character a bit. Ysthola has none of that imo. Yes she is snarky like Matoya, especially in this patch but imo that is not something that creates a good well written character. At the same time she has so much knowledge, then the power to take down enemies like Magnai, no restriction that truly hinders her right now so seemingly she just might be too powerful for the plot and thus gets taken out a lot. But if such a character only exist for plot points and maybe even a bit it of fanservice then I do wonder why she should stay in the game at all. So SE either kill her off or just finally give her a role in this game and create a deeper character for her that develops through the game. Much more interesting characters got killed for less.

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Nothing has come of the eyes yet I'll admit, though it could in the future.

As for Zenos, she's hardly the only one. The WOL lost to Zenos twice and suffered no consequences for it. Even giving away the fact that we came to Doma had no negative consequences. Grynwaht attacking us in the Steppe only helped us to pull the Xaela tribes together to use against them. I guess Wilfred died but even the resistance overall didn't suffer any meaningful setbacks. Lip service was paid to the 'devesting defeat' at the Reach but the Resistance was still able to hold it with only one named character gone, and Y'shtola was at least out of commission longer than the WOL was. Zenos' tendency to get bored and walk away kind of kills consequences when he's involved a lot of the time.

I really miss doing things in the main story with the scions. They were the most likeable characters in ARR, but ever since HW they've been knocked out, MIA, or just off doing their own chores. We'd get occasional visits from them when our paths cross, but other than that it's "hey, how've you been?" "oh no there's a problem" "welp we solved the problem, BYEE!!" or "Oops the problem got worse, bleh X_X"
I dont' know about anyone else, but ARR got me really attached to my starting citystate's scion. They feel like a representative of my character for the world of the npcs (kind of like a racial leader for other games). I honestly feel really bad for folks who started in Gridania now that they have no scion representation. :T

And I seriously agree with the desire to stop traveling with children. My FC has a particular sigh every time the story characters allow Alphinaud to do anything other than going to his room and thinking about what he's done after the whole debacle in ARR... I'd much rather travel with my character's peers than super-special-protagonist-children who every actual responsible adult takes commands from because they're loaded. I honestly wouldn't mind the twins being written out of the story permanently, but I'd settle for them switching bus/fridge-duty with the scions at this point. The ending of under the moonlight was a good start imo. A shame they spoiled it with this patch's decisions for the scions.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Nothing has come of the eyes yet I'll admit, though it could in the future.

As for Zenos, she's hardly the only one. The WOL lost to Zenos twice and suffered no consequences for it. Even giving away the fact that we came to Doma had no negative consequences. Grynwaht attacking us in the Steppe only helped us to pull the Xaela tribes together to use against them. I guess Wilfred died but even the resistance overall didn't suffer any meaningful setbacks. Lip service was paid to the 'devesting defeat' at the Reach but the Resistance was still able to hold it with only one named character gone, and Y'shtola was at least out of commission longer than the WOL was. Zenos' tendency to get bored and walk away kind of kills consequences when he's involved a lot of the time.

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Yes and it will probably be a plot in the future, my problem is that it should be of consequence even now. The only one that truly suffers from that spell she used is Thancred. As the instance showed she can see perfectly fine too. At least let her view be much more restricted or anything like that. Because the loss of her life somewhere in the future is honestly not that much of a punishment if everything else stays the same.

The WoL got hit by Zenos but we were not bleeding from the attack and depending on how he hit us it might have not been much because he might have still wanted us as potential rivals. Ysthola was point black hit by a hard sword strike where he even used both hands to deliver it and we even see her bleeding out of the mouth. Yet somehow she did not bleed to death until we got there and has no lasting effect too. (As far as we know)

The deal with Y'shtola's eyes is somewhat irritating. It's reminiscent of the Incurable Cough of Death trope as described by TVTropes - it's a serious problem, but has little or no affect on the character until the plot decides some drama is in order.

Y'shtola's blindness had some potential to flesh out Y'shtola's character a bit. How does she feel about being blind? But, like many things when it comes to Y'shtola, the potential is squandered because she has such a stony grip on her emotions. As far as we can tell, it's just, "I'm blind. Oh, well!"

It's one of the reasons why I find Y'shtola to be a thoroughly boring character. Characters are more interesting when they REACT, when you know how they feel, when you know what their motivations are. Y'shtola has no cracks at all in her composure, ever. She's a bland collection of heroic tropes. She'll fight the good fight, she'll sacrifice herself to save her friends and others - but we don't really know WHY, except that she's a good person. Actually, we don't even really know if she's a good person. All this heroism could be just her way of amusing herself.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Yes and it will probably be a plot in the future, my problem is that it should be of consequence even now. The only one that truly suffers from that spell she used is Thancred. As the instance showed she can see perfectly fine too. At least let her view be much more restricted or anything like that. Because the loss of her life somewhere in the future is honestly not that much of a punishment if everything else stays the same.

The WoL got hit by Zenos but we were not bleeding from the attack and depending on how he hit us it might have not been much because he might have still wanted us as potential rivals. Ysthola was point black hit by a hard sword strike where he even used both hands to deliver it and we even see her bleeding out of the mouth. Yet somehow she did not bleed to death until we got there and has no lasting effect too. (As far as we know)

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She was wounded enough to be put out of commission and was out of it longer than we were and she was immediately tended to by Krile. I don't have a problem with her just being injured to put her on a bus there instead of dying or something. Zenos is powerful but it's not like being hit by his sword is an instant 100% death.

As for the spell, there were only two people involved. Thancred suffered immediately repurcussions and y'shtola will likely suffer then down the road. I'm not really bothered by her blindness being something they're keeping on the back burner before using it catches up to her. It's something that will harm her eventually but not neccisarily right away.

There's a few ways Y'shtola's blindness can get the better of her. But one of the things we do know about her is that she is incredibly suborn once she makes up her mind. I can see her ignoring her own problems until it majorly impacts her further down the line.

Thancred doesn't have that issue as much because he's already had to deal with it back in 2.0 when he got possessed by Lahabrea. He knows he has to pay attention to his limitations and not ignore how they impact him. Y'shtola's never had to learn that yet.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

She was wounded enough to be put out of commission and was out of it longer than we were and she was immediately tended to by Krile. I don't have a problem with her just being injured to put her on a bus there instead of dying or something. Zenos is powerful but it's not like being hit by his sword is an instant 100% death.

As for the spell, there were only two people involved. Thancred suffered immediately repurcussions and y'shtola will likely suffer then down the road. I'm not really bothered by her blindness being something they're keeping on the back burner before using it catches up to her. It's something that will harm her eventually but not neccisarily right away.

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Thankfully they did let her stay in bed for a longer time otherwise that would have been even worse. Its just a bit annoying to see the plot armor that much with certain people while others die easily. Meffrid at the same time also just got hit with a sword but instantly died. Every Garlean soldier that Zenos hit with his sword died from that one hit (and that with heavy armor on). Ysthola gets a direct hit, where he even uses strenght to break through her shield, thus he should have quite the power behind that slash. If this was any other NPC they would be death. If this was a 18+ game they would have probably be cut open. It was a hit strong enough to break her barrier. She also was not wearing any strong armor. For me its just too obvious that she somehow survives it because of her being part of other games and the post/fan girl of the game.

Also with the spell: Yes only two were involved and one suffered great throwbacks from which he suffers from the start while she can still see quite fine and maybe somewhere in the future this might hurt her. Would have been nice to have her not be able to do her job that good anymore. Maybe just have her be able to see in black and white or only distorted. Or maybe she can only use the aether for a certain amount of time per day thus have her in situations where she is limited to fight. Just something that makes it feel like something has happened to her at all.

And on top of that instead of building her character to more than just snarky, they have taken her out again.