5 minute average queue time.

It literally becomes an hour.

Make tanks easier and more rewarding to play. To wait this long to advance the MSQ, this is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by lordnaarghul

It literally becomes an hour.

Make tanks easier and more rewarding to play. To wait this long to advance the MSQ, this is ridiculous.

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Then play a tank. Or a healer.

Be flexible, and you never will have problems with such queues. If not, then you have to sit down and wait like everyone else.

Tank is the easiest of the three roles. :p

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Then play a tank. Or a healer.

Be flexible, and you never will have problems with such queues. If not, then you have to sit down and wait like everyone else.

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I get the point here but it really shouldn't be so necessary to play certain classes just to advance the MSQ in a timely manner. I've been around the block regarding this, but it's far worse now.

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Originally Posted by lordnaarghul

I get the point here but it really shouldn't be so necessary to play certain classes just to advance the MSQ in a timely manner. I've been around the block regarding this, but it's far worse now.

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Because, simply, playing DPS in every MMO comes with the drawback of longer queue times than the other roles.
You aren't the only one telling this, and it simply gets tiring to see this every couple of weeks, even though the players are responsible for that problem in the first place.

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Originally Posted by lordnaarghul

I get the point here but it really shouldn't be so necessary to play certain classes just to advance the MSQ in a timely manner. I've been around the block regarding this, but it's far worse now.

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You realize pretty much everyone says this, right? Everyone wants someone else to play the tank, so they can play dps.

No one wants to do the MSQ roulette. :p

I watched my friend queue for it on stream the other day. It took her 20 minutes to get into the duty and then another 30 to get through all the cutscenes. A whole hour is not worth the reward for most people.

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Originally Posted by lordnaarghul

I get the point here but it really shouldn't be so necessary to play certain classes just to advance the MSQ in a timely manner. I've been around the block regarding this, but it's far worse now.

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Why should other people tank when you can do it? How many DPS are in that queue thinking the exact same thing as you?
If the solution to faster DPS queues is more players tanking and healing why don't you help woth that?

Actually, I correct my statement to this. Give the tanks more rewards to cater the majority of the players.

Give me roulette-only acquirable, awesome and exclusive tank glamour, dyeable and unisex. Give me cool looking accessories I can show off.
Give me more tank-exclusive mounts, titles, special role emotes and poses.

If the DPS want faster queues, SE might as well dump the whole box of carrots on us instead one carrot at a time.

More rewarding, in terms of items of some kind - sure, I'm all for that.

Easier to play?! Hell no - tanks are already easy enough to play, and personally I'd drop my paladin as main if they dumped that job down (again). In hindsight ARR with basically 4 buttons (Halone+Flash) wasnt enjoyable at all.

People dont play tanks because the job would be difficult, but because they wanna see big numbers or dont want to take the leader-position or the bullsh*it tanks are getting. "Nerfing" the jobs wont get more people to play tank.

...and if you dont want to play a tank or healer: Buddy up for queues! Join a friendly FC with people willing to queue for MSQ for you! Open a PF, advertising your bonus and hope a friendly tank or healer will join. Find a friend whos willing to tank/heal for you - but please dont ask for jobs that people enjoy to play to be dumb down, just because you have this crazy idea that it might get more people to play them...

I'm still all for the extra rewards though - rewards that are more than just some cracked clusters, that I dont really need anyways... or tank-mounts that are easier and better farmed by running Ex-primals anyways.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

No one wants to do the MSQ roulette. :p

I watched my friend queue for it on stream the other day. It took her 20 minutes to get into the duty and then another 30 to get through all the cutscenes. A whole hour is not worth the reward for most people.

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This was just to do Susano, not Meridianum or Prae. This was Stormblood trial roulette.

That's trinity design for you.

I mean, they could make content where tanks and healers aren't needed, just remove the unavoidable damage. But then tanks and healers would become pointless. You need to force them into groups via content design so they can viably live out their niché fantasies, which in turn means other people have to suffer in queues for their sake.

And as humans are, said players then aren't grateful for being granted viability at the cost of other people, no. They demand further rewards as compensation. You won't find this kind of madness in books, only real life.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

That's trinity design for you.

I mean, they could make content where tanks and healers aren't needed, just remove the unavoidable damage.

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Stone Vigil HM's final boss is the pinnacle of this game's design :blobsweat:

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Originally Posted by lordnaarghul

This was just to do Susano, not Meridianum or Prae. This was Stormblood trial roulette.

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Its not just DPS that get long queue times, they just have them more often since there's more people playing DPS than tanks and healers. I can't count the number of times I've waited 20+ minutes in queues as a healer or tank. We're not immune from it either.

Absolutely fire take: The Adventure in Need bonus should not exist. One shouldn't need a lackluster reward to play a particular role as they should play the role because they enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

Stone Vigil HM's final boss is the pinnacle of this game's design :blobsweat:

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You're not wrong.

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Originally Posted by lordnaarghul

5 minute average queue time. It literally becomes an hour.

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"Five minutes" or "less than five minutes"? Because if you're queuing for a specific trial that nobody else has specifically queued for recently, the 'average time' still just gives you "the average time waited by all people who have queued for this trial recently". Which is your waiting time (so far), divided by one, and handed back to you as the average. Technically correct, but useless.

You also mentioned that this for Susano which is "Stormblood trial roulette" but that's not actually a thing. There's one trial roulette that covers everything from Lv50 upwards, so a lot of people queueing for the roulette aren't going to be up to Lv62 to be matched with you in the first place.

Other than doing it for MSQ myself, I think I've only gotten it once ever in trial roulette.

Tanks are already pretty easy to play.

However I think it's ridiculous to make MSQs mandatory and then have this situation tied to it.

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Originally Posted by lordnaarghul

It literally becomes an hour.

Make tanks easier and more rewarding to play. To wait this long to advance the MSQ, this is ridiculous.

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Sadly it's not so simple. Dps queues being far longer than healer and tank queues has little to do with the mechanics of the classes, and much more to do with the community.

Healing and tanking requires quite a bit more responsibility than dps, and it only becomes more evenly distributed in ex and savage. Up to then dps have an easier time as far as responsibility is concerned. A lot of people dislike tanking and healing for these reasons. Or they would like to try but are afraid because they know messing up can easily cause a wipe.

Also the content you're queuing for and the time of day can affect queues as well. If I queue for old content when it's not peak time even as a healer I can end up waiting a half hour or more.

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Originally Posted by lordnaarghul

It literally becomes an hour.

Make tanks easier and more rewarding to play. To wait this long to advance the MSQ, this is ridiculous.

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The problem with tanks is not really the ease of play or the rewards.
It is the other players.

Plenty of people are willing to tank for friends or with their FC. Far fewer are willing to tank for randoms.
Any mistakes a tank makes will be far more visible than mistakes made by dps - and too many people will be nasty when those mistakes happen. Not everyone of course, but too many.
Same applies to healers, though to a lesser degree.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Plenty of people are willing to tank for friends or with their FC. Far fewer are willing to tank for randoms.

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Exactly this! I made a thread a few years ago about it and still believe it now: There is no shortage of tanks in this game, really, rather there's a shortage of tanks willing to do a DF pug group. Myself and many of my tank friends will only ever tank for FC or friends because of the way PUGs can sometimes be in DF. Not all, and probably not even that many, but the few toxic people who berate tanks for either going too fast, going too slow, etc. just isn't worth it.

What was the breakdown of players across roles? Wasn't it 20% tanks 25% healers and the rest all dps? Also low level MSQ dungeons might not go as fast as people generally hate rerunning them.

I think something like that, but the 20% tanks, 25%, healers, rest dps actually seems to fit with what the dungeons require -- 50% dps, 25% heals, and 25% tanks. Though I am terrible at math but may be wrong :P

It does fit the breakdown of what content requires but you have to take into account how many players actively play the roles. I got some friends with all 70s that just won't do anything but healer for example. They'll only switch if the system forces them to or if they are helping a friend level up.

Took me dps over 40 minutes to queue for lvl 61 to 69 dungeon for my WT when have max picked.

The design itself is flawed. They need to step away from the holy trinity and embrace the true spirit of a final fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

The design itself is flawed. They need to step away from the holy trinity and embrace the true spirit of a final fantasy.

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I dunno, I found gw2 to be a terrible mess without a trinity. I prefer games with the trinity.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

That's trinity design for you.

I mean, they could make content where tanks and healers aren't needed, just remove the unavoidable damage. But then tanks and healers would become pointless. You need to force them into groups via content design so they can viably live out their niché fantasies, which in turn means other people have to suffer in queues for their sake.

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Or maybe because "Everyone's a DPS now!" leads to simplistic design which ends up being less interesting for everyone.

But, I mean, those games do exist. You can load up GW2 and/or BDO any time and start playing.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I dunno, I found gw2 to be a terrible mess without a trinity. I prefer games with the trinity.

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GW2 has no trinity for most of the game it's true. But if you step into raid content they do fit with Bulky, Damage, Support trinity albeit less intense than the classic MMORPG formula.

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

The design itself is flawed. They need to step away from the holy trinity and embrace the true spirit of a final fantasy.

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Id argue you want them to follow what you believe the spirit of final fantasy is... since most games that have been part of their entries have defined characters who fit into some category.... also from a development stand point allowing the game to not use the trinty system would make it even harder to balance.

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Originally Posted by lordnaarghul

I've been around the block regarding this, but it's far worse now.

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Far worse as of now...? DPS queue times were always horrid and they'll always stay that way regardless. Did you forget the horrid queue times when everyone wanted to play Samurai and Red Mage or something...?

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

The design itself is flawed. They need to step away from the holy trinity and embrace the true spirit of a final fantasy.

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Most of the other Final Fantasy games have a trinity regardless of the battle system that may have been used at the time. This is the true spirit of Final Fantasy. You had tanking characters, support characters, and damage dealers. They've been embracing the holy trinity every iteration of their games, you just don't notice it right away or it didn't feel like it entirely.

For example, FFX still follows the trinity aspect in a sense. You had character better suited towards tanking at first, characters that made better healers or casters, and characters that were strictly for damage. Only near the end of FFX could you start putting people through the Sphere Grid that essentially made everyone a tank, healer, or DPS....but, even then some people were still better at than others.

Making tanks easier to play isn't going to incentivize people to play them. Tank mains typically enjoy tanking, and play these jobs almost unconditionally during their highs and lows. The instant queues are usually viewed as a nice bonus rather than the reason they play the role. Trust me, if the near-instant queues are not enough to get players such as yourself to give a go at tanking, rewards and nerfing gameplay isn't going to do it either.

I believe getting more players to play tank is by making the jobs themselves interesting and fun to play. The aesthetics to DRK alone is a big reason why it still has so many players leveling it and using it in endgame despite the uphill road it has had all of 4.0. PLD mains stuck with it despite their gripes in 3.0, and though I don't play PLD I hear the job is pretty damn good now. Very fun and feels like a PLD. These are just examples off the top of my head.

If you absolutely don't want to use a tank or healer to progress the MSQ, then your next best bet is a buddy who will tank for you or simply just wait things out like all the other DPS players.

Oh, and the average wait timer doesn't mean a whole lot. There have been many times I have seen the timer go well beyond the average time, and I have also the queue pop in far less time than the average when it is high.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Making tanks easier to play isn't going to incentivize people to play them.

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Yeah, tanking already isn't mechanically demanding. It's the responsibility/spotlight/etc people shy away from.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Yeah, tanking already isn't mechanically demanding. It's the responsibility/spotlight/etc people shy away from.

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So much easier to call out a bad tank/healer than a bad DPS. That is true.

Healers get it really bad from bad tanks. That is why never play healer anymore because how many bad tanks there are. Once in level 70 dungeon got kicked because couldn't keep tank heal. The tank was in level 60 gear and died faster than could cast a healing spell on them.

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Originally Posted by lordnaarghul

It literally becomes an hour.

Make tanks easier and more rewarding to play. To wait this long to advance the MSQ, this is ridiculous.

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i am really less activ now than 1 year ago. i dont know how is the queue now.
But before, queue for melee was quite low, only range had a long one.
FFXIV get a not so bad waiting time for damages. And mainly due to the fact it is easy to have a heal/tank ready for the basic contents (dongeons, and "normal" primals, even story mode of the raid 8 )

The matter for ALL mmorpg is what?
When the team needs 1 heal, 1 tank and 2 Damages, for no waiting time for everyone you need 25% playing tank, 25% playing heal 50% playing damages. in WoW, 1/1/3 it is nearly same (20/20/60). But we are probably more to a 70% damages...

Sad to say, but the only solution is doing like many people, have a heal/tank ready for "easy" content. SE can only make tanking more attractiv (or healing) but how? I mean it is not only a question of class gameplay. it is a question of what you have to do in the fight... 3 different mind.
Mostly i like to play healer. Not because "gameplay of healing class are those i prefer" but because "what i have to do as healer is what i prefer" . And i think many people think the same.

(and for the "adding more heal/tank. in HW we were 3/3/7 so close to the good % of each... and had this matter)


for many things, i consider solution have to come at least from developpers, but for this matter, only players can solve it. (Devs can only make decision that could maybe, sometime, helps a little the players).
FFXIV is a wonderfull game for this : you can play ALL in one character... so having one of the 3 tank or one of the 3 heal ready for easy content is not so hard...

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

The design itself is flawed. They need to step away from the holy trinity and embrace the true spirit of a final fantasy.

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Honestly I'd say aside from Warrior all the jobs in XIV are probably my personal ideal version of each classic FF job, so no complaints here in that regard.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

GW2 has no trinity for most of the game it's true. But if you step into raid content they do fit with Bulky, Damage, Support trinity albeit less intense than the classic MMORPG formula.

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The game turned me off before they even added raid content. after getting 3 80s with map completion, there was nothing to do.

The only advantage of a long ass que in my opinion, is that it provides me with a good moment to do college work lol.

Do I like to tank? Honestly not really.

Do I enjoy instant queues? Absolutely.

So I make a choice. Sit in queue or tank. I feel my time is better spent tanking.

Is Tank not already extraordinarily rewarding with the instant queues, exclusive mounts, daily EXP bonuses on every roulette, etc.?