So, guren feels a bit underwhelming to me, i mean its 800 potency for 50 kenki(16potency per kenki), while shinten is 300 potency for 25 kenki(12 potency per kenki), now obviously guren is a better ability, but honestly its just two thirds of a free shinten every 2 minutes in single target, its not that great, whats the point of this ability? i wouldnt loose almost any dps by just ignoring it would i?
Samurai question
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06-26-2018, 02:51 AMNoelaitsSamurai question
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06-26-2018, 04:00 AMTex_MexI don't know the calculation for exactly what the DPS loss would be for purposely never using Guren, but your calculation does show that it is a DPS gain purely by efficency of kenki usage. If I had to take a guess, it would probably not be more than a 100-200 dps loss on a max geared character. For the vast majority of content a margin that small is meaningless, but for hardcore stuff, that is pretty huge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelaits
This gain can be further enhanced by lining up Guren with other party buffs like Trick Attack, Brotherhood, Dragon Sight, Battle Littany, Embolden, etc.
Where Guren really shines is obviously for AoE. The DPS gain for hitting a second enemy is absolutely massive. Considering how many add phases there are in hardcore end game encounters, this is a great strength. -
06-26-2018, 04:07 AMManuelBravo
it's just an extra burst really mainly as a quick cool down and can really help for example on mobs that summon or time based mobs. I would just incorporated based on needs.
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06-26-2018, 04:09 AMTex_Mex
I did some digging around on FF Logs and saw that Guren typically averages about 3% of the total DPS output for a character. If you take 7k dps as the total (totally fine for 8 main raid scenarios with buffs), then......
Guren DPS Contribution Estimated 3.2%
7000*.032 = 224 DPS
Guren is 4/3 stronger than 2 shintens, so.....
224*.25 = 56 DPS.
So my guess from my earlier post was a bit too high. My estimated DPS loss from using 2 shintens instead of guren is only about 50 DPS. That tiny margin only matters to the absolute top of the player base, not the rest of us scrubs lol -
06-26-2018, 04:12 AMManuelBravoin other words no point in worring about it enjoy the game -.-Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex_Mex
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06-26-2018, 04:42 AMDzian
Guren isnt underwhelming. Its real strength is against multiple targets..
2 targets is 1400 potency. (28 potency per kenki)
3 targets is 1800 potency (36 potency per kenki)
4 targets is 2200 potency (44 potency per kenki)
Compared to say kyuten.
Against 3 targets that works out at 18 potency per kenki
Against 4 targets that works out at 25 potency per kenki.
It doesn't even come close to Guren in terms of power.
That's why many Sam's will hold guren unless they know there won't be a better time to use it in the next 2 minutes. -
06-26-2018, 04:56 AMTex_MexWe definitely agree that Guren shines in multi-target, but this thread was about how effective it is in single target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzian
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06-26-2018, 04:59 AMDzianThe op didn't really specify he just said guren was underwhelming in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex_Mex
He also asked the point of the ability to which i answered. It's strength is Multiple targets -
06-26-2018, 06:53 AMwereotter
If you want to play most effectively, Guren is still a DPS increase on a single target over just using Shinten as you're losing 200 potency on attacks every 2 minutes. Depending on the fight, that could add up over time to about 1,000 potency or more lost. Considering as a Samurai your only strength you bring to a team is big numbers, it's important to get all of the damage out that you can, so in higher content like the savage raid, it'll be important to be able to anticipate when you need to stock up kenki in order to use Guren when it comes off cooldown.
However, in more casual content, it's not as big a deal if you forget to use it or delay it because you didn't have enough kenki when it came up again. -
06-26-2018, 07:52 AMSylvain
The point is that it does a bit more dps and while it isn't ground breaking dps gain, it is still something that can be used within burst windows to increase its effectiveness.
Altough I agree there are quite a lot of abilities like these that don't feel all that great because the gain is rather negligible. (if that's what you're referring too when you ask "what's the point if it barely makes me do more dmg
For instance with the NIN, Bhavacakra with 600 potency vs Hellfrog with 400 potency.
At least the cd isn't all that long so it's not so bad but it's definitely not something to be overly excited when you use it. It's basically 200 extra potency every 50s.
I also have a mixed feeling about Foul for instance (not AoE wise, perfectly fine on this regard), but 715 potency (650+10% from enochian) every 30sec when I literally spam FireIV doing 554 potency (280x1.8x+1.1). It's not even one extra FireIV. (altough I'm not including casting time
Even including cast time, Foul has ( honestly wouldn't mind having it do a bit more dmg single target.
However the example I just gave do make a lot of dps difference if you ignore them, which isn't the case with 2shintens vs Guren. -
06-26-2018, 08:13 AMNoelaits
so tldr ignore guren unless on aoe, burst windows or world first race :P
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06-26-2018, 09:03 AMRyaz
I'm not sure why you'd want to ignore it. It might only be a slight dps gain on ST, but it's no harder to use than shinten. Just a quick button press in between cooldowns. Heck, the opening rotation for Sam sets it up for you to use it right after your first Hagakure. Unless you're playing on PS4 and are worried about having to swap to it.
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06-26-2018, 09:24 AMKabooaYou don't compare it to Fire 4. You compare it to any other option in Ice phase where you have to wait on an MP tick after refreshing Thunder, outside having a TCloud proc. Which would be Blizzard 1 or ScatheQuote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
180 vs 100/200 vs 650. -
06-26-2018, 10:16 AMShurrikhan
Seigan is barely a single potency-per-kenki higher, than Shinten and yet it will separate parses, too. In group play, Guren's benefit also has a lot to do with how quickly all that damage can be dealt. You can fit that 800 potency into a single 5-stack-Embolden, Trick Attack, Battle Voice, Brotherhood/Hypercharge, Chain Stratagem, etc., more easily than 2 Shinten alongside the Kaiten, Hagakure, MKSS, etc. of your opening burst.
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06-26-2018, 10:22 AMKabooaI've yet to see a considerable number of reports where Seigan made a bigger difference than an extra DCrit Iai3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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06-28-2018, 01:20 AMDzianHonestly I thought seigan would have gotten a buff when they did the Sam changes. Because it docent amount to much really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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06-28-2018, 06:49 AMShurrikhanSame. Even just 10 potency would have at least raised the efficiency spread from 12, 13.33, 16 to 12, 14, 16, a simpler and arguably "prettier" spread. Given the massive bonus attached to Merciful Eyes, now, though, it'd probably need closer to 240 (efficiency 16, same as Guren) to be an attractive choice in fights with few raid AoEs subvertable, especially if without a NIN (who can just pad enmity over you) or MNK (who the tank or NIN would have to deal with anyways, covering you, as their potency loss for threat-dropping is massive).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzian
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07-02-2018, 07:28 PMSylvainYour' right, that was a bad comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
The point still is that some skill just kinda grant small benefit. It may be a lot over the course of a fight. But sometime everything isn't just about numbers.
For instance, Deathflare from summoner is fun to execute because you literally spam very little numbers over the course of a fight. So the burst is welcome and satisfying. Same for demi bahamut (altough we don't see much with this one)
The SAM case and NIN to some extent are just bleh too.