Magic Melee DPS category?

Random thought, what if SE implemented a new category of DPS.

So far we have:

Melee DPS are close-range attackers. Focused on combos and careful positioning to inflict the maximum amount of damage.

Physical Ranged DPS attack foes from a distance. They excel at inflicting sustained damage, and also provide support for companions.

Magical ranged DPS attack foes using a variety of arcane arts. Movement is restricted by casting times, but they excel at inflicting high burst damage.

Magic Melee DPS are combo-less close-ranged attackers. They are armed with enfeebling magic, and able to deal moderate damage with faster GCDs.
(Think of something along the lines of WoW)

Types of Magic Melee DPS include:

Mystic Knight
Dancer
Geomancer
Blue Mage

Will update with role actions soon. Lmk what you guys think!
Will this upset the DPS balance?
Would you play it?

assuming no heavy rework of the role skill, a category is more than simple damage type.

Technically speaking Nin is already some sort of magic melee as he cast spells every 20sec. Not even counting ninki.

Also, assuming next xpac is tank+heal job, the category would only have 1 job until at the very least 6.0. (Nin)

Giving access to unique rôle action to only one job (which already has unique skills) wouldn't too much good to the game I believe (unless all skills are totally useless).
Category atm also decide what LB your job can do, so they'd need to come up with a new sort of lb.
So far, beside à few exception, only sigle target lb has a use.


These two things alone makes creating a new category more of a assle than anything else.

Therefor, I don't think there will be a need anytime soon for a new category,

Consideration: Cast time or no cast time?

Cast time would be something no other melee has, and may balance poorly for its melee potential.

No cast tune means Spell Speed, a stat present on many Disciple of Magic gear sets, would be useless, requiring either unique gear, or specialized traits to utilize Spell Speed in a different way, likely as Skill Speed. Both possibilities pose considerable difficulties to balance both melee and magic use in a single job.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Technically speaking Nin is already some sort of magic melee as he cast spells every 20sec. Not even counting ninki.

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I think so too regarding NIN, they have been methodically changing his ninjutsu and ninki skills from physical to magical during the course of the expansion, I think only fuma shuriken is the remaining physical ninjutsu

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Consideration: Cast time or no cast time?

Cast time would be something no other melee has, and may balance poorly for its melee potential.

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But SAM...
See also: RDM

Also in re: spell speed, it still reduces GCD time whether the spells are instant or not; and there are non-speed options for almost every gear slot anyway.


Tangentially, and not in accusation toward Hasrat, why do people make such a big deal about Disciples of Magic having to have cast times? This came up like fifty times in the BLU tank threads for some reason, despite that there are plenty of already-in-game examples of Spells that are instant. "Spell" doesn't have to mean "complex two hour ritual that I need to stand in one spot for".

Spell speed isn't an issue in the sens that the Stat could very easily be reworked to affect both magical and physical. (technically id like "speed" to also reduce the CD of "core damaging skill" such as jump, mudra etc etc.

Not sure what it would bring to the table worth making it a role. You could easily make a int melee that does magic damage but has no cast times at all. I don’t think it really warrants it’s own role

I am in support for a Magic Melee Job especially a DPS focused one.

While it seems most people are just saying No to it because "We have ninja" or other reasons that make sense to them, I have been in support of a actual Magic Melee Job for a long time now.

While Ninja is nice, it is the matter of aesthetic design for the Job that is in concern. Ninja "magic" is just Ninjutsu which is basically the ninja means for Range Magic Attacks.

A Magic melee Job is something I see more that use Magic in a form of melee attacks through infusing magic into their weapons to empower their melee attacks similar to characters like Charlemagne from Fate/ Extella Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r3I67dpCz0

and other magic swordsman (or etc) type Jobs in other games that focus the use of infusing magic into their weapon for melee range attacks.

Currently the Melee Jobs currently focus is to use their physical strength to perform their high damage (even Ninja need proper physical strength from their Dexterity to strike harder on weak points) but a Magic Melee Job should be more focused on infusing Magic into their weapons for powerful attacks instead.

They missed the opportunity to make a magical melee with red mage. I had hoped, and assumed it would be more fencer based sharing ninja’s scouting gear and just having it’s magical attacks scale off dexterity, just like ninja’s do.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Not sure what it would bring to the table worth making it a role. You could easily make a int melee that does magic damage but has no cast times at all. I don’t think it really warrants it’s own role

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You aren’t wrong, but the idea was to make a different type of play style under guise of a role. If that makes sense.
Where Melee DPS are about strict positioning and combos, I propose a role that mirrors some sort of action/tab targeting system. Basically allows more freedom in combat.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

snip

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This is what I was going for! Perhaps people aren’t on board because I have fully fleshed out my idea, but I do intend on expanding this though!

I've developed a Job whitin this "Category".
They use a new type of skill called "Weaponspell". These actions are instant when near 5y, but for 6y or more they have cast timers. They buff the next Spell used too, and a lot more.

Take a look in the link below.

My point is, how does doing magic melee damage make them any different then an actual melee dps. blm and smn doing magic damage doesn't matter except with very niche buffs. thats why these 2 are so high on the dps latter because magic utility sucks in this game when compared to physical alternatives. Making a magic melee a role doesn't do much of anything because if you design to buff casters and it's too strong, you'll have a magiuc equivalent to the piercing meta, but if you make it too weak. it's just another job thats going to get shafted by NIN/DRG

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I am in support for a Magic Melee Job especially a DPS focused one.

While it seems most people are just saying No to it because "We have ninja" or other reasons that make sense to them

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You missed the point, the question isn't if we should add a melee magical job but should we add a category, like ranged, caster, melee, healer or tank.

Adding aelee caster job would be amazing, I'd love to have one. But adding an entire category would be a mistake imo and I brought up a few reasons why.

Magical melee doesn't matter that much imo. I want to see a combo-less melee far more than I want to see a melee mage, though there are plenty of melee/mage hybrids. A Garlean Gunblade class would work as a nice hybrid and could be introduced next expansion as a counterpart to NIN. Ideally something that played like a mix between SMN and DRK with a focus on resource management, and maybe rewarding stacking skill speed as there isn't really a physical class that does that, despite BLM doing that on the spell side. In that case it'd probably focus its spells into its oGCD like NIN does.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

They missed the opportunity to make a magical melee with red mage. I had hoped, and assumed it would be more fencer based sharing ninja’s scouting gear and just having it’s magical attacks scale off dexterity, just like ninja’s do.

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Problems:
1) Having cast times while in melee range is analogous to being a melee with animation lock on every GCD. This would be a huge issue for surviving mechanics while keeping up DPS. Unless a RDM's spells had no cast time, at which point they're basically just a melee but with "magic-looking animations" with a 3y range like melee GCD.
2) Mages have lower physical defense and HP than melee because they don't have to move as often and fewer mechanics target them. If a close-range mage were to be made, there would need to be some adjustments made to their equipment or perhaps a new class of gear for them that had high INT but also decent VIT like striking/maiming. That would mean another denominator when gear drops, as we already have 1/6 or 2/6 drop rate with Fending, Healing, Casting, Striking, Scouting, and Maiming, and adding another class of gear for magic-melee would be a 1/7 or 2/7 drop rate on equipment from raids.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Problems:
1) Having cast times while in melee range is analogous to being a melee with animation lock on every GCD. This would be a huge issue for surviving mechanics while keeping up DPS. Unless a RDM's spells had no cast time, at which point they're basically just a melee but with "magic-looking animations" with a 3y range like melee GCD.
2) Mages have lower physical defense and HP than melee because they don't have to move as often and fewer mechanics target them. If a close-range mage were to be made, there would need to be some adjustments made to their equipment or perhaps a new class of gear for them that had high INT but also decent VIT like striking/maiming. That would mean another denominator when gear drops, as we already have 1/6 or 2/6 drop rate with Fending, Healing, Casting, Striking, Scouting, and Maiming, and adding another class of gear for magic-melee would be a 1/7 or 2/7 drop rate on equipment from raids.

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If a Red Mage, by my original description, was using scouting gear, then your argument about defenses and vitality is null as the stats would be identical to ninja, and like ninja, magic doesn't have to be based off INT. Ninja has it's magic attacks based off DEX, paladin has its magic attacks based off STR, and all healers have their magic attacks based off MND.

I don't know exactly how it all would work in practice, but if red mage was, as I was hoping, primarily a fencer and using spells as a secondary form of damage, think how samurai works to build up sens then having a cast time to use them up, then you've got a melee DPS that can their attacks deal magic damage, as opposed to piercing, that could have some other unique quirks. Obviously that's not how the job was implemented in the end, which is why I also said they missed the opportunity for a magical melee when they designed the job.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

No cast tune means Spell Speed, a stat present on many Disciple of Magic gear sets, would be useless

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I've seen this propagated a lot. Along with people saying "yeah spell speed is bad on red mage, for example, because every other cast is instant".

This is wrong. yes spell speed is terrible on red mage, but not for this reason.

The primary important function of spell speed is to reduce the recast times. Lowering the GCD raises the amount of GCDs you can get in a fight, and thus raises your dps. Every spell has a recast time. And thus benefits from spell speed, insta-cast or not. The cast times reducing are just icing on the cake, and meant to keep the cast-vs-recast time proportional. For example, a black mage's fire IV is 2.8s cast and 2.5s recast. If spell speed reduces the cast time to 2.5 seconds, the recast is reduced to 2.25(ish) seconds. The ratio is the same, and both are reduced.

In reality, aside from skill speed increasing auto-attack potency, the stats are functionally identical. I don't know why they don't just combine them into "Haste" or something.