So I have been playing a LOT of "Wizards of Legend" (good game, check it out) and one of the things I saw about that game got me thinking. While I do still want a ranged tank, I mostly want something that isn't all about having a big sword, and one of the things I have heard people say is they want an evasion tank...so why not use a caster who uses rocks?
In WoL the earth school of spells is very physical. Everything from using giant stone fists to punch enemies to using saw blades of stone to knock-back enemies. From using an earth drill rush to summoning earthen shields to take hits. In short if you have seen the "Avatar" cartoons (NOT the live-action film) it's a very physical and fast paced casting. I guess kind of like a magical monk.
That fact...might be the biggest issue. I could see using attacks to continuously heal and or buff a damage mitigation on the tank. But equipping the tank might be an issue, though I don't think using MNK weapons and/or armor might be to bad a way to go with caster gear. Maybe slightly confusing, but not to bad.
Personally I wouldn't mind a tank that hit fast like the monk and was a caster. In fact I would probably pick up tanking even if it wasn't a ranged tank. What do you all think, would you take a magical monk style evasion/mitigation tank?
Geomancer tank?
Vue imprimable
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29/05/2018, 21h31MalkriaGeomancer tank?
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29/05/2018, 22h36Tex_Mex
I really like the idea you are going for with this line of thought. My favorite incarnation of an "Evasion" tank is the Warrior class from Tera Online. Though tanking in that game is VASTLY different from this game.
The biggest issue I see with an evasion tank in FFXIV is how encounters are designed. Tanking in FFXIV really only has a few aspects: 1) Fluff damage mitigated by armor, 2) Tank busters mitigated with skills, and 3) A requirement to keep enemies as still as possible.
Any tank in the game must be able to handle all three of those aspects due to how the other classes are designed. For instance, a ranged tank that wants to keep distance by kiting or re-positioning is going to frustrate the crap out of any melee dps in the group. This is exactly why the 3 tanks we have all have big heavy armor and are melee oriented. This type of encounter design is, IMO, one of the largest flaws in this game. It heavily restricts job design and leads to many jobs just feeling like different flavors of the same basic design. It also means that a true "evasion" tank is not really possible, as a 50% chance to dodge wont matter when that big tank buster comes around. You're gonna die without a consistent mitigation tool.
I say all of that only because it is important to remember these limitations when designing a class. If Gemoancer is to be a magic oriented class with light armor, then the class will have to have some skills that will make it equivalent to the other tanks.
1) Fluff damage mitigated by armor - If the class is going to be able to effectively tank in lighter style armor, it is going to need a mechanic (like a stance) that drastically boosts its armor class, so that it can survive the fluff damage from trash packs, adds, and such.
2) Tank busters mitigated with skills - The easiest to implement by far. Just need geomancer skills like Stoneskin etc.
3) A requirement to keep enemies as still as possible - Here is where things get tough. This requirement means the class basically cannot be ranged. If it uses magic, the magic needs to have no cast time and be melee ranged, or it needs to be magically buffing weapons or weaponskills.
As far as design, I really like the Geomancer from Final Fantasy Tactics. A one handed axe and a shield would be perfect for a tank in FFXIV, and also add another shield user to the roster. The job could focus on fire/earth elements to buff their damage/defense. -
29/05/2018, 23h08Malkria1) Well in reddit one of the few people who responded did suggest a skin with a sort of stance. Which would fit in with the current stance system the three tanks already use. You could have it further enhanced by attacking or by using specific attacks. So as you attack your damage mitigation gets better, and falls off as you stop.Citation:
Envoyé par Tex_Mex
2) I don't have much experience tanking, due mainly that the three tanks are rather boring to me and I rather dislike the combo system the physical jobs use. But I can see things like using giant slabs or rick to take a big hit.
3) This is why I make the comparison to MNK. By essentially having the MNK class be a magical tank, and like the MNK and NIN it could have a mechanic that sped up attack speed. I don't know of any rule that a DoM job has to have cast times or be ranged, and the thought of a caster summoning giant fists of stone to pummel and punch enemies I feel would make it pretty showy and a fun job to play. To make it a little different from MNK though I was thinking it could use a similar system to the NIN's ninjisu, where casting spells in a certain order either made the last spell a more powerful finisher or let you use another ability for said finisher.
One of the distinctions I feel the DoM jobs have vs the DoW jobs is that they don't use combo's the same way...though RDM being a hybrid could be argued as an exception. But having spells that when cast in certain orders made them stronger could be argued to still be a combo, it's mainly having the direct chain of abilities vs having a less strict order that makes the difference. -
29/05/2018, 23h25Tex_MexI totally agree with you here. Another combo focused tank is NOT what we need. I'd love to see a more proc heavy (think BRD) tank that functions more off of a priority system and less off of combos. I agree that the visual you used (giant earth fists) pummeling an enemy would be visually appealing.Citation:
Envoyé par Malkria
Another weapon idea that comes to mind is a 2 handed warhammer. The class could use the mace to build up an elemental gauge and then unleash it with savage elemental magic attacks. The armor design could be something akin to a heavy armored druid, with lots of furs and feathers to push the natural elemental magic theme. I'd play that tank. -
30/05/2018, 00h40DBelmont
Geomancer cannot be a new job, be it tank or not. This is established in the AST storyline where it clarifies that Geomancy is a more primitive alternative to Astromancy and ASTs learn from it.
As for the people who mentioned that a non-combo based tank is needed, I think there is a high chance the next tank might be caster-based. The reason is that they opened up the possibility by introducing a casting based rotation for PLD. Therefore, it is possible that we can see more depth to it through the next tank job. -
30/05/2018, 03h12MalkriaOk since I just got done arguing this over on Reddit, might as well clerify this here:Citation:
Envoyé par DBelmont
Yes the geomancer we meet was part of the AST story line, but he came to Eorzia to learn the AST healing. In a similar fashion to how arcanist is the root of both a DPS and Healer though, there is nothing to say that the Geomancer job would have to be a healer. In fact, having the job be based around damage mitigation buffs and/or self healing could still be not only plausible but still in keeping with having a lore about healing. Far as I can recall at this point (can't get into the game yet to re-watch the scenes) nowhere did our friendly geomancer say he was a healer or that geomancers were known as healers.
But the fact that you could potentially have the practitioners of the heavens be healers and practitioners of the earth be tanks would create an interesting dimorphic that would still be lore friendly as well interesting concept wise.
I was thinking runed gauntlets, especially if they are attacking with rock fists. as for armor...well the NIN doesn't have any competitors for it's gear, and far as I know dexterity is what dodge chance is based off of. So an evasion tank would make sense to share with that job far as I know.Citation:
Envoyé par Tex_Mex
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03/06/2018, 06h59Jhett_Magnum
It’s possible, not in the slightest what I want for a 4th tank though.
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03/06/2018, 07h41Valdegarde
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11/06/2018, 02h30Capn_Goggles
I'd like the idea of clobbering mobs with bells, but Geomancer as a tank would not work with the way the way tanking is now due simply to the fact that tanking requires you to be in melee range, and to stay in one spot to avoid inadvertently turning the boss, so it'd never get the kind of kit a geomancer should actually have.
Realistically, Geomancer would more likely be a healer (or a DPS, but after an expansion of only getting two crap DPS jobs I'd rather they just hold off on that crap for much later). I'm almost fairly certain, however, that the idea of a magitech tank has been toyed with, and I can't be entirely certain whether I heard that spoken about on the developer side or userland. -
11/06/2018, 07h36Eloah
YEEEESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!! GEO TANK, WAAAAAANNNNNTTTTTT!!!!!
I mean, I would very much like a Geomancer Tank. I made an idea, but I will not post it until a reveal; cause if I post it SE can't use the idea. But yes...
DDDDOOOOOOOO WWWAAAAANNNNTTTTT!!!!!! -
11/06/2018, 09h21Cidel
Geomancer tank talk aside, I am legitimately curious about this train of thought:
What would they (the devs) be willing to do when they (if they) release a new job that is not as aesthetically similar to the others like it in the same role? Redmage already dips it's toes in this territory, but I can't see certain jobs that would get placed into the healing role trudging along in robes or put into a tanking role having to share heavy armor with something like a DRK or PLD... For example, the "DNC must be healer" argument sometimes says they could "share" Scouting gear with NINs for aesthetic purposes, but then I think that potentially creates conflict of interest problems for gearing.Citation:
Envoyé par Malkria
I suppose it certainly can be done, but I'm not so sure if the devs are up to it...