Hi,
As a returning player but main tank since day 1, I'm pretty confused about tank class roles in the current (4.3) meta.
Back in 2.x, things were pretty easy : MT role was mostly dedicated to PLD as it was only having 1 aggro combo and DPSing like a wet noodle compated to WAR. So WAR was mostly used as an exclusive OT, except when tank swapping was needed due to some mechanics.
In 3.x, it was pretty the same except the introduction of DRK and its higher magic defensive potential was challenging the physical blocking PLD for the MT role. War was still considered as an OT afak.
So now in 4.x, with all the changes I'm a little lost and need your help to see the light ! ;)
I heard WAR must pull... Then what ? Let the WAR tank the boss until a swap is needed ? if needed... Is it still true with 4.3 that improve DRK pulling capacities ?
Instant swap with the other tank that is "supposed to" have better mitigation/survivability ?
On the other side, PLD and DRK have mechanics to improve help their Co-Tank (Cover, TBN, ...) which is not in the WAR toolkit... So might be understandable to let the WAR as a MT.
I know shirk has more or less put any aggro problem into another dimension and that after pulling it's quite admitted that the tank will swap to his offensive stance because of this and won't go back unless tankbuster or general panic.
So guys, what's your opinion about all this ?
(feel free to challenge what I said, maybe I understand something wrong or I said something incorrect)
Tank role
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05-29-2018, 02:30 AMOrhimTank role
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05-29-2018, 02:59 AMaqskerorokero
Meh, I usually take the role where things can be messed up if not managed correctly, and recently OT has more mechanics to do than MT, and those oh shit moments suits better paladin. Because even when I don't have any cd left to use, I still can pray the rngesus for the block.......
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05-29-2018, 03:48 AMHierroIn 3.x, WAR pulled first too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orhim
The key in defining the pulling tank is asking "how can we minimize DPS loss from the use of tank stance?" If a WAR is in your party, they pull due to losing the least amount of DPS because of Unchained and Equilibrium. WAR simply MTs just because it's the most convenient thing to do, and people tend to follow the path of least resistence. If the WAR pulls first, and if he's surviving just fine, why swap? That said, if you as a PLD or DRK wish to MT, you can do so just fine if you establish wanting aggro after the pulling opener.
Currently, the tanks have enough cooldowns to deal with all tank busters sufficiently while in DPS stance and especially more so if you're swapping with your co-tank and making use of THEIR cooldowns, and smart use of shirk means there is no need to worry about aggro. This means there is very little use for tank stance outside of progression or picking up adds if your team can't/won't use their aggro management tools.
It's true that right now, DRK has the most powerful aggro generation through Dark Arts Power Slash while in Grit. However, since aggro isn't something to worry about, the question is still about who loses the least amount of DPS in doing so, so WAR is still the preferred puller. Now, if you're with a PLD, then DRK should pull first. -
05-29-2018, 08:29 AMLinx0r
Every tank class can be mt or ot. It’s the ability of the player behind the class. Pick one you like and do your best
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05-29-2018, 10:51 AMImDingDing
It was always WAR pulling with unchain then swap to the other tank since 2.1 until 4.05. Due to the change of unchain in 4.2 WAR start to pull again and yes WAR in the MT in 4.x because PLD play a very decent ST spot in this expansion so far. WAR/DRK comp is rare now.
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05-29-2018, 10:55 PMTex_MexIn 4.X, all tanks now have very strong DPS capabilities (WAR is still the highest DPS, but the difference is somewhat minimal now). This makes every tank very capable of the MT or OT role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orhim
One big change in 4.X is that Block now reduces magic damage as well, so both DRK and PLD are very strong against magic damage now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orhim
Must is a strong word. WAR is preferred to pull only because their DPS loss from pulling is significantly lower than PLD and DRK. Since no high level tanks ever actually use Tank stance (outside of the opener), the one who has the least DPS impact is generally chosen. Also, because of Fell Cleave and the 4.2 WAR changes, WAR can generate MASSIVE enmity in their opener even without their tank stance. Comparing toolkits, WAR is also generally considered to have the strongest personal mitigation toolkit of all 3 tanks, making them even more suited for the MT role. Holmgang and Vengeance are arguably the 2 strongest defensive abilities in the game for end game raiding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orhim
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05-30-2018, 02:55 AMOrhim
Thanks guys for your replies.
This is quite confirming my thoughts so far.
=> Can you elaborate on this ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex_Mex
I was still thinking PLD has the best toolkit of all 3 with shield blocks, defensive CDs, invul, etc. -
05-30-2018, 05:38 AMTex_MexAs a slight warning, we are getting in to personal opinion with this statement and answer, so please take this with a grain of salt. Though many of my friends agree with this statement, many will not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orhim
The key word in the statement I gave was "personal" mitigation tools. This refers to only tools that directly affect the user's defensive capabilities and does not include raid utility like divine veil, cover, intervention, etc. Those are all primarily "party" mitigation skills and if we were comparing the tanks based on those, nothing comes even close to PLD. Also, I won't cover role actions like rampart for obvious reasons.
For me, I like to compare these jobs based on skills that are similar, or serve similar functions, that way it is easier to make a job comparison.
Generic Damage Skills: WAR wins this round
DRK - Shadow Wall - 30% DR for 10 sec. 120 sec CD - This ability got even better with 4.3. The reduced CD is great and elevates this above Sentinel, but it is still significantly behind Vengeance.
PLD - Sentinel - 40% DR for 10 sec. 180 sec CD - The 3 minute CD is what really sets this ability behind. Is it really worth another entire minute of CD for only 10% more DR than Shadow Wall or Vengeance? No, considering that 10% is very VERY rarely the difference between life and death during a tank buster.
WAR - Vengeance - 30% DR for 15 sec. 120 sec CD. Deals Damage back to attackers - This skill is simply a better Shadow Wall. 5 more seconds of DR and damage return with the same CD? WAR easily has the best of these 3 comparable CD's
Invulnerability Skills: WAR wins again
DRK - Living Dead - Invulnerability for 10 seconds but fatal if you do not receive healing equal to your entire life pool, 5 min CD - This ability is a meme for a reason. It can be alright in the right situation, but this rarely happens. It also forces your healers to put big heals on you, instead of being able to focus on the rest of the party, or else you die...... C'mon, who thought this was a good idea?
PLD - Hallowed Ground - Complete Invulnerability for 10 seconds. 7 minute CD - Sounds absolutely amazing right!!?? Until you look at that 7 minute CD. That is an eternity considering most fights only last in the 6-15 minute range. Plus the skill has a really terrible animation delay from when you activate it to when you actually become invulnerable. The delay is near 1 second, which never matters in raiding, but is very detrimental in most other content. The number of times I have used this skill, had it go on CD, and then still died because I fell to 0 while in the delay period is ridiculous.
WAR - Holmgang - Cannot drop below 1 hp for 6 seconds - 180 sec CD - The CD is what makes this skill so freaking good. only 3 minutes means that this can be up for half of the tank busters in most fights. There is virtually no delay on the animation as well, making it great in non raiding content as well. The lower duration rarely matters either, since most tank busters are over within 6 seconds anyways. Overall, this skill gets the job of survival done, lets the party ignore tank busters more often, and is a great panic button.
3rd slot Skills: WAR wins in mostly physical fights, DRK wins in mostly magical fights
PLD - 60% Block Rate for 15 sec. 180 sec CD - This skill got drastically better in 4.X when blocking got buffed to reduce magic damage as well. This is a very solid skill. but the 3 minute CD holds it back a bit
WAR - Raw Intuition - 100% parry Rate from front (auto crits from behind) for 20 sec. 90 sec CD - Longer duration, lower CD, higher parry rate. The only major downside can be nullified by using Awareness from role class abilities. The weakness of this skill is that parry only reduces physical damage, so this skill is useless versus magic damage
DRK - Dark Mind - 30% Magic Damage Reduction for 10 seconds. 60 sec CD - This skill is massively overpowered in fights that have a focus on magic damage. Otherwise, it is terrible.
Additional Skills: DRK wins easy
PLD - Shelltron - Guaranteed Block for 1 attack. No CD, but uses 50 Oath Gauge - This skill is very good, but has some glaring weaknesses. Only blocking 1 attack makes this ability only useful on tankbusters, and even then some tank busters are multi-hit, reducing this abilities usefulness. Can be really good on some fights, but below average on others.
WAR - Inner Beast - 20% DR for 6 seconds. No CD but costs 50 beast gauge - It is a shame that Warriors have to be in Defiance to use this, otherwise it would be the strongest defensive ability in the game IMO. The penalty for WAR stance switching is smaller than other jobs, but you still have to spend 10 seconds in Defiance once you switch, which is a pretty big DPS loss. Plus, who wants to spend beast gauge on something that isn't Fell Cleave or Decimate?
DRK - The Blackest Night - 20% HP Barrier for 7 sec on a 15 sec CD. And you can use it on other party members for a 10% Shield. Plus gives 50 blood - OK, this ability rocks. One of the best tanking abilities in the game with the low CD. The MP Cost kind of stinks, but this ability needed to have at least one drawback.
Additional abilities not mentioned -
Thrill of Battle - Most WAR's only use this to boost Upheaval damage, so it rarely matters as a defensive CD.
Shake it Off - This is primarily used as a party raid damage mitigation ability. The damage reduction is not high enough to matter most of the time.
Passage of Arms - Sure, this gives 100% block rate for 18 seconds. Oh but you can't move, or attack, or think.......... Joking aside, this is a party damage mitigation tool primarily, and it is amazing at that job.
Equilibrium/Clemency/Sole Survivor - Healing is great, but you will be taking so much damage that these self heals won't matter all that much in the long run.
Conclusion - To me the WAR personal mitigation skills are quite a step up from the other tanks. Shorter CD's for similar or even better effects in most cases. If the WAR does struggle somewhere, it is in the magic damage reduction department, but this is partially offset by Holmgang, Vengeance, and Inner Beast. Another good note from all this comparing is that the DRK personal mitigation is quite good as well, being better than PLD in that area IMO with the buffs from 4.3. DRK has virtually no party support though, so in that regard, it is still quite a ways behind the other 2 tanks. -
05-30-2018, 04:11 PMMegguidoYou can't quite compare every defensive ability from each tank, one by one, and say "hey WAR has more good abilities, he's better !". You have to look at the big picture. WAR has a lot of good abilities, but he lacks a good "on-demand" mitigation, as Inner Beast makes it lose tons of damage (forced to switch to tank stance, drop gauge on something else than Fell Cleave). WAR can't use Sentinel + Sheltron to reduce a hit by like 60%, nor reduce by 30% and have a 13k HP buffer on top of it.Quote:
Conclusion - To me the WAR personal mitigation skills are quite a step up from the other tanks. Shorter CD's for similar or even better effects in most cases. If the WAR does struggle somewhere, it is in the magic damage reduction department, but this is partially offset by Holmgang, Vengeance, and Inner Beast.
Take apart, Vengence is very powerful, but compare it to Sentinel + Sheltron, or Shadow Wall + TBN, and it's not that overpowered.
From experience, playing the 3 tanks, PLD has the "weakest" personal mitigation. Sentinel is strong, but once that and Rampart are used, you're kinda naked for the next 90 seconds. You only have Sheltron to mitigate.
WAR on the other hand has to pair its cooldowns to make it really effective. Using only a Vengence on an Arm & Hammer in O7S is not really enough, unless your team helps you with a Palissade / Benison for example. What makes WAR so strong is that they can negate almost every tankbuster with Holmgang, and blow all the other mitigation abilities on AoEs, auto-attacks etc. WAR isn't OP because Vengence is 5s longer and boosts its DPS by like 0.5%.
On physical-only fights, DRK is a bit behind PLD, mitigation-wise. It has a weaker Sentinel, but with a shorter recast, and a 13k HP shield instead of a 28% mitigation on-demand block. But in magic heavy fights, DRK is near unkillable. And since most of the fights from both Delta and Sigma are focused on magic damage, DRK has the best mitigation out of the three tanks IMO. -
05-30-2018, 05:00 PMSunAurel
I think you are forgetting paladins amazing OT kit. Pairing Rampart + Intervention or Sentinel + Intervention or cover with sheltron gives your mt additional cooldowns without having to swap for heavy hitting busters. The mt can use their other mitigations during the fight freely if they can trust the pld to help them out.
Divine Veil also exists but the heal Trigger is annoying
And an upside for pld taking over the boss are Shield swipe procs -
05-30-2018, 05:13 PMMegguido
Yeah, PLD's party support is amazing. Cover and Intervention are free CDs for the MT, and Divine Veil helps a bit during AoE heavy fights.
Also Sheltron is very useful for Shield Swipe procs when being OT. -
05-30-2018, 05:20 PMTinibou
If only every player could play with the "Pick the class you like" spirit :'D
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05-30-2018, 10:12 PMTex_MexThat is a fair point. In situations where multiple skills need to be utilized in order to mitigate maximum damage, WAR does have to make a DPS tradeoff while other tanks do not. I disagree with the notion that comparing abilities is an ineffective way to draw comparisons. We may disagree on how good or bad some abilities are, resulting in different opinions, but skill comparisons are one of the only ways to effectively compare jobs, because it allows for some objectivity. As far as Vengeance, I never said it was overpowered, just very good. It is objectively better than its counterparts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megguido
I totally agree with you here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megguido
To be fair, if you are not getting any party support in 8 man content, then something is wrong. You mentioned a couple of abilities, but there is also reprisal, The Blackest Night, Cover, and many more abilities that are available to the MT depending on party composition. High end groups are not going to have any problem utilizing these CD's to make an individual tanks skills go much further. In all other content, nothing hits hard enough for you to ever need to stack defensive abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megguido
Same as above, I never called WAR OP, I was simply elaborating on why I think the job is strong in the personal mitigation area, and doing so with objective comparisons between abilities. Overall, I don't believe that any of the tanks are OP right now. If I had to rate them for overall usability, PLD would be the strongest overall, followed by WAR, and then DRK bringing up the rear. This is because I tend to greatly value the party support that the class brings. But none of them are unplayable or unusable. They are all very capable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megguido
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05-30-2018, 11:29 PMMegguido
I did say it the wrong way.
What I meant is more like: WAR's defensive capabilities are strong because Holmgang has such a short recast cooldown compared to the other two tanks. It's just lots of people complain how Vengence is ten light years ahead of Shadow Wall and that's why DRK needs a buff.
Pretty much this. All three tanks are really well balanced right now. Not perfectly balanced, so there's still a "worst" tank, but each one have their pros and cons.Quote:
Overall, I don't believe that any of the tanks are OP right now. If I had to rate them for overall usability, PLD would be the strongest overall, followed by WAR, and then DRK bringing up the rear. This is because I tend to greatly value the party support that the class brings. But none of them are unplayable or unusable. They are all very capable.
In my opinion:
- WAR has the highest damage output, and a party-wide shield that you can abuse to boost the limite break gauge.
- PLD has the worst personal mitigation but the best team support.
- DRK has the best personal mitigation and about the same damage potential as PLD, but almost no party support.