Give us a reason to use anything but standard while synthing!

So with the whole discussion on whether being afk and pressing "confirm" on a controller is considered botting and what not, it's pretty clear the synth minigame is flawed.

Main problem being that to get steady, stable exp, all you have to do is spam enter.

There was an adjustment of how much exp you gain in proportion to the quality of a synth, but it is still not enough.

I just burned through a stack of cinderfoot olives and spamming enter worked fine, not a single break. Half of the time I tried to get more exp by using careful synth, I suddenly got into streaks of failures, breaking my synth in the end.

The other 50% of those synths took me about TWICE as long as spamming standard while only gaining about 50% more exp - clearly too low and NOT worth it.

This still needs adjustment, for example make careful synth give more quality, or set a bonus for every successful careful synth.

Something needs to be done here, otherwise it's no wonder so many people spam enter for hours - doing anything else puts you at disadvantage.

Every craft class needs its own game. EXP must be based on the skill at playing the game (for example: if the game was like Tetris or Dr. Mario, you'd get more Quality from combo'ing clears and more EXP).

How much exp are you getting per synth? 150? Maybe 200 at best?

If you're trying harder synth you'll be getting around 400~500 range exp per synth, those you can possibly blindly spam standard and still get maybe a few successful synth.

However, if you're really pushing yourself and aiming for the 700+ range, you can't just blindly spam synth and hope for the best.

Basically, the people who are taking no risk, are ideally similar to the people who would kill Easy Prey mobs for EXP. Can't complain it's easy because it is easy.

I've just done another synth using only careful synth + tender touch. The recipe is 1 level above me. Used HQ items to get maximum quality bonus out of it. Got only 36% more exp and nearly blew the synth with 3 durability remaining. Remember, not a single failure while leveling from 10-14 when spamming standrad synth. Yes, it's that bad. -_-

I'd prefer an actual puzzle to do instead of this random junk system, but something that takes the same amount of time to complete a synth.

Kinda like the 'Walk-across-the-tiles,get-all-the-crystals' paradoxes in XIII-2.

Fast, and requires attention.

Not referring to the bonus from quality, talking about crafting level of the item. Such as if the recommended level for it is either +5 ahead of your current level, oppose to +1.

I've pulled off plenty of crafts giving me a return of 400ish on a consist base with minimal failures. Maybe 1 out of 20 crafts fails. If I aim higher than 400+ exp return, I take a bigger risk. I would need to pay attention more and take a bit longer to craft. That is out of my personal conform zone, but there are other people who do aim for 700+ exp on a consistent success rate, failing out of 1 out 20 crafts.

If I have pile of low level materials I just want to get rid of that still is worth at least 100+ exp each successful craft, then I would try to make use of them. However, anything below 100 exp is not worth my time or effort.

i use careful to bump my xp up a bit and rapid for easy mats

Again, this thread is not about getting low exp per synth - i know how to get 500-ish exp and I'm using it.

This thread is about not getting enough boost from using anything except standard. The bump from using careful is too low to warrant the synth taking twice as long. Standard synth gets you 20% progress on perfect attempt, careful gets you only 10%, while not giving you 2x exp on success.

This not a "no pain - no gain" situation, it's a "pain and no gain" situation.

I view quality as a small bonus, like EXP chain or link bonus.
And aiming for harder crafts would be synonymous to aiming for IT+ monsters.

However, before that, quality was suppose to be a key factor for HQ'ing items. Although, it was never a guarantee HQ rate. There might be a change to this coming next patch it mentioned "Revisions to balance and flow for HQ synthesis" and "Changes to the algorithm for determining HQ item attributes".

In short, if you're going for EXP, the return rate is higher when aiming for more difficult crafts, rather than wasting your time on generating higher quality.

I agree that the return rates for the time invested to raise the durability bonus is not worth the trouble, because each action you take to raise the durability is as the same time you could have spent just finishing the craft. Ideally it should be more similar to EXP chain and link bonus. Such as the player would reach a point where they realize the EXP chain is not worth the effort, and move on to harder mobs. But it muddles in with the HQ factors of the craft.

The thread title is generalize, but in the OP it's referring to only EXP, hence why I am replying back to your only reference to EXP oppose to HQ rates, or speed (rapid synth, hasty hands, bulk synthing), or anything else.

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Originally Posted by lackofwords

I view quality as a small bonus, like EXP chain or link bonus.

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Except, it isn't. It's actually a huge penalty. Let's make an example: using a recipe +5 levels above you gives you around 500 exp. This means 100 base exp + 400 bonus exp for difficulty. This is based on the fact you get 250 exp with a recipe of your level and getting 260 is 10% bonus according to my chat log -> 100 exp is base exp

Assuming you manage to pull off all perfect synth attempts, you will have finished a standard synth in 5 synths (20% progress each) and need 10 synths for a careful synth (10% progress each).

Now, the maximum bonus exp i ever managed to get is 80%... which would be *drumroll* 80 exp points. So you get 580-600 exp for one careful synth, instead of getting 1000+ for two standard synth in the same time

Going for HQ should not be the only reason to use careful synthesis, else SE might as well implement a fast synth (just getting exp for standard synth) and a careful synth with a set chance of failures for both and get rid of this pointless enter-spamfest.

Yeah, I know it isn't. I said so in my 4th paragraph.

Covered the points of;

• Time it takes to craft, the actions takes the same amount of time
• The affects the quality equated into HQ chances and EXP bonus
• The value of using quality EXP bonus compared to difficulty EXP bonus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Now, the maximum bonus exp i ever managed to get is 80%... which would be *drumroll* 80 exp points. So you get 580-600 exp for one careful synth, instead of getting 1000+ for two standard synth in the same time

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80% of 500 is *drumroll* 400. The percentage gain is indeed figured off of the base exp, but you are calculating your base exp all kinds of wrong.

That inaccuracy aside, I agree with most of what you're saying. They've already stated that they intend to change the way crafting works so just wait for 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Raldo

80% of 500 is *drumroll* 400. The percentage gain is indeed figured off of the base exp, but you are calculating your base exp all kinds of wrong

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Bonus exp is not calculated off the 500 exp. How else would you explain getting 260 exp with log stating "+10%" and 270 exp with log stating "+20% exp"? I'm also getting 258 exp with log stating "+8% exp". Seems pretty clear to me, I'll try to make screenshots of that next time i craft.

nvm, was seeing things.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...SynthBonus.png
CRP47 making Dated Walnut Mask(50)

Synth 1: No bonus, 401 exp.
Synth 2: +14% bonus, 457 exp.

401 * 1.14 = 457.14 -> round down to 457.

The bonus is calculated from the entire amount of exp you'd get if you had with zero quality gain. You are clearly not remembering your numbers correctly.

Also, if anyone is curious, the bonus % is calculated like this:
([Ending Quality] - [Initial Quality]) ÷ 2.5 = Exp bonus % (rounded down)


I completely agree with the point you're trying to make with this thread. I just don't like seeing blatantly incorrect information being thrown around as fact.

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Originally Posted by Raldo

The bonus is calculated from the entire amount of exp you'd get if you had with zero quality gain. You are clearly not remembering your numbers correctly.

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Yes, you are right, I tested it yesterday myself, must have been sleepy last time.

It was 250+25=275 for 10% exp bonus.

Quote:

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Changes to Experience Point Bonuses

The experience point bonus that is given in proportion to the quality of finished items will be increased.

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From [here]

Yay? Maybe now not spamming standard synth will be worth it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lackofwords

How much exp are you getting per synth? 150? Maybe 200 at best?

If you're trying harder synth you'll be getting around 400~500 range exp per synth, those you can possibly blindly spam standard and still get maybe a few successful synth.

However, if you're really pushing yourself and aiming for the 700+ range, you can't just blindly spam synth and hope for the best.

Basically, the people who are taking no risk, are ideally similar to the people who would kill Easy Prey mobs for EXP. Can't complain it's easy because it is easy.

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Quoted For Truth.

You can Just Spam Standard (JSS) on synths that yield 200 exp with minimal risk of failure.

On the other hand a synth that yields 400-500exp per will require the use of Tender Touch, Makers Muse, Fullfillment etc. (lvl 10 craft abilities) to avoid botching once every 4 synths.

However, for a synthesis that yields 700+exp per you you must have and use a number of cross craft class abilities to avoid botching.

If what you are looking for is a way to speed up the synthesis progress of a low lvl synth by spamming careful+tender touch whilst at the same time capturing an exp bonus from quality, i would not count on that.You would be better off leveling all your craft classes to 10 to get the cross class abilities and using those on a synth that yields 5-700 exp per.

The only problem with this is that in order to consistently synth items that yield 5-700 exp you have to go so far above your current lvl that often you find yourself at lvl 14 for ex, synthing a lvl 21 item which coincidentally means you are not getting the achievement for the lvl 11-20 Tier.

My problem is that I want to knock out the crafting achievements while benefitting from the exp the synth gives at that lvl. Considering that fulfilling the achievement for any given Tier will practically guarentee you getting the 10 levels in that tier, I find myself moreoften than not at the beginning of a Tier (lvl 10, 20 etc.) crafting an item 5 or so lvls above me for 4-500 exp but by the time I finish the achievement I'm at the end of that tier (19, 29 etc.) and the synth only yields 200 exp~~ At this point Just Spamming Standard is the easiest way to go, whereas in the begining I find myself using cross class abilities.

You should re-read the posts (especially the one by Raldo), you will not get more exp/min when going with careful synths as careful synth only gets you 50% of the progress you get on a successful standard synth. My example is still valid. You either get 1000 exp from 2 standard-only synths or 900exp from one careful-only synth in the same timespan.

I think it has less to do with the amount of time spent and more to do with the materials being consumed in the process. For example if you do Two Standards Synths for a toal of 900 exp in the same time it takes you to do one Careful Synth for a total of 900 exp you are STILL consuming TWICE as many materials, which is going to cost you time one way or another in the form of materials or money spent.

Now, I'm going to reiterate my above point. Why bother attempting to Careful Synth a recipe, taking twice as much time as you would performing a Standard Synth on the same recipe, for the exp bonus WHEN you could just move on to a recipe 5 lvls higher and spam standard (whilst using cross craft abilities) to obtain 900exp per synth in the same amount of time it takes you to standard synth a recipe that yields 450exp?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matsume

I think it has less to do with the amount of time spent and more to do with the materials being consumed in the process. For example if you do Two Standards Synths for a toal of 900 exp in the same time it takes you to do one Careful Synth for a total of 900 exp you are STILL consuming TWICE as many materials, which is going to cost you time one way or another in the form of materials or money spent.

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You do have a point on that one, but careful synth has a higher fail rate (or rather, higher durability loss on failure) which means you will break an item more likely than using standard, thus getting less exp per attempt, waste mats and still need twice as long to complete a synth.

Quote:

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Now, I'm going to reiterate my above point. Why bother attempting to Careful Synth a recipe, taking twice as much time as you would performing a Standard Synth on the same recipe, for the exp bonus WHEN you could just move on to a recipe 5 lvls higher and spam standard (whilst using cross craft abilities) to obtain 900exp per synth in the same amount of time it takes you to standard synth a recipe that yields 450exp?

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So you do agree there is no reason to use careful synth? I'm slightly confused.

Also the example used a recipe 5 levels above you, because if you try to synth something higher than 5 levels above you, the failure rate increases even more, so you will probably break even more synths overall.

I think it is like this:
If you are trying to level up as fast as possible, therefore care about xp/hr the most, standard synth may be the best.
- Easier: Can just keep hitting enter
- Faster: No thinking time, and faster to 'get throug the synth'

If you are trying to maximize xp per attempt (i.e., you have limited materials and need to squeeze the most out of them), then perhaps standard synth is not the best approach

While this is true, all this system does is encourage "botting"... in it's simpliest form. People always go the route of least resistance, so if spamming enter is the best way, you either end up mindlessly mashing enter for hours or just let your controller/keyboard do all the work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

You do have a point on that one, but careful synth has a higher fail rate (or rather, higher durability loss on failure) which means you will break an item more likely than using standard, thus getting less exp per attempt, waste mats and still need twice as long to complete a synth.

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Yes, Careful Synthesis does have a higher loss of durability when it fails, but you can use Tender Touch to guard against durability losses. Alternatively, you could use Fullfillment to increase the rate of success. The same can be said for Rapid Synthesis, in which case I would recommend using Masterpiece to increase it's rate of success. And then, of couse, there is Preserve which helps to maintain favorable synthesis conditions If you have Perfection you can guarentee the success of your next synthesis action and thus shave off time via rapid synthesis or gain a little bonus exp via careful synthesis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

So you do agree there is no reason to use careful synth? I'm slightly confused.

Also the example used a recipe 5 levels above you, because if you try to synth something higher than 5 levels above you, the failure rate increases even more, so you will probably break even more synths overall.

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Now, I didn't say there was no reason to use Careful Synth. That's besides the point since the title of this thread is :

"Give us a reason to use anything but standard while synthing!"

and that's exactly what I've done. I've given you a reason to use cross class abilities to ensure and increase the success rate of your Careful/Rapid/Standard Synthesis Actions, particularly if you wish to successfully grind on a recipe that is 5+lvls above you. What you say about botching even more on a synth 5+ lvls above you is not necessarily true. Did you ever happen to come across this thread? It's an oldie, but a goodie:

http://i43.tinypic.com/s2w96f.jpg

You can see he botches on average twice after a string of 6 or 7 successful synthesis, and even the botches yield 300exp on occasion. Furthermore I don't think he was using a Grand Company Manual either, which would have had the effect of netting him over 900+exp per successful synthesis. All it takes is a few mid lvl crafting abilities, the right gear, and the judicious use of those abilities on a recipe high enough above you:

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Originally Posted by neizero

Hand of the Gods (R36 alchemy) + Perfection (R30 carpenter) and you can craft stuff +10 LV consistently, probably even less botches than the OP shows. Throw in Crafting scroll for 1k+ exp/synth!!

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But those lvl 36 abilities are by no meanss necessary, as the OP of that image was doing this only with lvl 10 abilities from what I understood. Now if that isn't reason enough to use something other than standard synthesis even once every three actions, then I don't know what would do the trick.

You might want to check out Twinkles' Crafting Guide while you're at it.

I hope that helps! Happy crafting!

The links look interesting, thanks.