I just wanted to share with everyone a new MCH guide Lace Valeria put up. Please check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCrQ...ature=youtu.be
Machinist PVP Guide
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05-15-2018, 08:14 AMAlien_GamerMachinist PVP Guide
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05-15-2018, 11:38 AMNova_Rox
Huh.
PvP content is scarce, so it's good that there is some.
That's verrryyyyyy basic though? And doesn't really show how to use it in a match? I don't see how this video would help a MCH climb ranked.
Maybe show the burst in a match so people can see what it's like? Since I'd say that's the most important aspect to a DPS in ranked -- then go over target prioritization (IE: please stop attacking the 25 medal healer. it isn't working) -
05-15-2018, 12:02 PMAlien_Gamer
From Lace:
Quote:
The video wasn't intended to show anything beyond basic things that I've seen frequently done wrong or misused. I didn't even cover burst as if someone can't properly use or understand the tools they have, they certainly won't understand how to burst, let alone climb ranked. The Wolf Pup's Den exists to help players seek deeper answers or learn more, and I make myself available there as well. But for all the preloading MCH I see in ANY mode, or the ones that blow Stun Gun just to overheat, this was designed to explain what seems unknown for all the people now interested in picking up a gun.
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05-15-2018, 10:54 PMNova_RoxExactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer
And what we need is something a bit more than just this basic, especially for ranked. -
05-16-2018, 03:07 AMWintersandmanThen make one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova_Rox
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05-16-2018, 06:42 AMDivinemightsThis is a video to address two common mistakes for MCH players, it is not a guide to clime ranked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova_Rox
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05-16-2018, 12:45 PMNova_RoxI'm sure you have never had an opinion on something you can't do. Nope. Never.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
If I had the time and the tools to do so, I would. -
05-16-2018, 01:08 PMAlien_Gamer
She agrees a more in depth guide would be nice but she hasn't done Feast in a long time. If you want her to try making one just ask her to (she is reading this thread), but I won't speak for her and say she will do it.
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05-17-2018, 01:17 AMWintersandmanI don't criticize the efforts of others if I don't have the time to put forward the effort myself. I appreciate Lace's guides even though they don't go in depth. It is more information than we had the day before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova_Rox
Why would someone, Lace in this example, want to create another guide that is in-depth if all they get is criticism on one that is designed to be basic?
Your tone in your first reply was not an appreciative tone. This is at least how I read it and lets also be honest Feast is not the end all be all of PvP. -
05-17-2018, 05:56 AMFPZAnyone is liable to criticism when content is put out there in the public eye for viewing, whether they contribute to the community or not, your comments come off as white-knighting. If the person doesn't want to make another guide due to 'criticism', then they shouldn't be making guide content in the first place.Quote:
I don't criticize the efforts of others if I don't have the time to put forward the effort myself. I appreciate Lace's guides even though they don't go in depth. It is more information than we had the day before.
Why would someone, Lace in this example, want to create another guide that is in-depth if all they get is criticism on one that is designed to be basic?
As for the guide, it's a good introduction, video effects are cool, font is a bit hard to read at times, overall it's pretty solid. It's mostly a front-lines / mass PVP guide, you should change the title as some of the advice in the video is misleading for 4v4.
Every MCH I have seen at high rank / good knowledge in 4v4 uses pre-load as their burst, Lace's statement here is incorrect and requires some adjustment / further detail so it doesn't come off as misinformation.Quote:
But for all the pre-loading MCH I see in ANY mode,
As the guide states at the start 'experience is key' (paraphrasing), so I would avoid the misleading generalisations about pre-loading MCH's when it presents itself as misinformation in the current format of the guide.Quote:
she hasn't done Feast in a long time.
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05-17-2018, 06:16 AMDivinemightsYes, you do pre-load when you are about to burst, but you should not pre-load when your gauge is 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by FPZ
Therefore, I don't see why you think the video is mis-informed. -
05-17-2018, 10:52 AMAlien_GamerThen you didn't understand the guide. How your job plays doesn't change between any of the PVP modes, this guide is to warn people of two common mistakes people make who are unfamiliar with how MCH plays in PVP.Quote:
Originally Posted by FPZ
Yes, preload for burst, not starting the fight. There are many examples on this forum and elsewhere that show with video examples and math that using preload at the start of the fight with 0 heat is a DPS loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by FPZ
Oh boy...I can understand if you don't know Lace but you're just flat out wrong. Experience in PVP is the important thing, not experience in Feast vs Frontlines; PVP is almost all Lace does, experience is not a problem she has. Any job plays the same in either mode, the differences between the modes mostly come down to communication and priorities for a win. So far you've shown you misunderstand how the class is played and when you should and shouldn't use your buffs and accused one of the most dedicated PVP MCHs as giving misinformation. I'd suggest learning more about MCH first before stating someone else is misleading people.Quote:
Originally Posted by FPZ
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05-17-2018, 11:52 AMFPZI did initially read it as that. I could've worded it better, but it needs more detail overall for a new player. The guide mentions not pre-loading, but there needs to be visuals to indicate otherwise a newer player can mistranslate this as "never preload", and due to the video not covering the benefits of "pre-loading as a burst" it further disconnects from the narrative and point of the video. I said it needs further detail, which is a fair critism, and has been echoed by someone else as well.Quote:
Yes, you do pre-load when you are about to burst, but you should not pre-load when your gauge is 0.
Therefore, I don't see why you think the video is mis-informed.
Wrong, I recommend you play Feast. How a job plays in frontlines differs vastly from how it plays in a 4v4 environment, they are completely different metas with their own considerations. For example, the use of stun-gun to go into over-heat is perfectly valid in 4v4 and is used quite often when there's a good opportunity to stun a clump of enemies.Quote:
Then you didn't understand the guide. How your job plays doesn't change between any of the PVP modes, this guide is to warn people of two common mistakes people make who are unfamiliar with how MCH plays in PVP.
The guide/tips/tricks are too generic and doesn't go into detail on the rationale behind the advice given. The guide is meant for new players and is meant to provide a "foundation to learn from", however the foundation is incomplete, it needs more discussion on rationale. Why is stun-gun better as a stun and not an over-heat? What can you combo to get the most out of BTE? When should you Wildfire? A lot of core MCH stuff that hasn't been mentioned here which falls in line with 'foundation'.
All I've shown is an initial misunderstanding of the guide context. My initial comments about MCH are correct, whether they were related to the guide or not, but that's besides the point. Man, that was cringey to read with all the brown-nosing and useless anecdotes, it's hard to take you seriously when you're biting at the heels like that, most of your points are incorrect except the 'pre-loading' one, which was a misunderstanding by myself on the guide, which is fair enough, however, I recommend getting some actual rounded PVP experience before speaking for other people in regards to PVP as a whole.Quote:
Oh boy...I can understand if you don't know Lace but you're just flat out wrong. Experience in PVP is the important thing, not experience in Feast vs Frontlines; PVP is almost all Lace does, experience is not a problem she has. Any job plays the same in either mode, the differences between the modes mostly come down to communication and priorities for a win. So far you've shown you misunderstand how the class is played and when you should and shouldn't use your buffs and accused one of the most knowledgeable PVP MCHs as giving misinformation. I'd suggest learning more about MCH first before stating someone else is misleading people.
Goodluck with the feedback Lace, poking your guard-dogs was fun. -
05-17-2018, 12:12 PMNova_RoxI'm just wondering, why are you speaking for her in this thread? Especially if she's reading it herself, as you stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer
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05-17-2018, 12:16 PMAlien_Gamer
From Lace:
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Please rest assured that, when it came to making this guide, I didn't just slap it together. This was the result of a LOT of testing, a lot of takes, a lot of looking at guides and tooltips and every official resource available, weighing it against what I myself saw in testing, and of course experience in PvP overall, neither solely Feast or Frontlines. Because I sought to inform, and not just entertain this time, it HAD to be right. And with each test, under controlled, even conditions, I only kept reaching the same conclusion every time. It's not going to offer much to anyone already experienced in PvP, but for all the ones who see what MCHs are capable of and want to do it as well, this was nothing more than small tips to establish a better foundation from which to practice and learn from. And more than just watching or reading a guide, I ALWAYS encourage anyone to practice and try things for themselves.
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05-17-2018, 12:16 PMAlien_GamerShe posted a botting video and got banned for it a few months ago. I volunteered to post her video for her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova_Rox
Edit: to clarify, she posted a video as evidence that there were bots in PVP. It was considered naming and shaming by the forum mods which resulted in a ban. -
05-17-2018, 12:53 PMAlien_GamerFrom Lace:Quote:
Originally Posted by FPZ
Quote:
As my intent was to help other players, so too is this player willing to help me by relaying what I cannot say. Please don't mock or belittle that. Too many of the best PvPers in our community have absolutely no voice here, so I am VERY grateful for their help.
The questions you raised are good. Worthy of a video, but not worthy of a "Light" Machinist Guide. However with them raised, if you know the answers to those, I hope you'll make a guide to explain those things. I can, and maybe I will, but it's not on my project list currently, nor is solely trying to create a Feast-only guide. I dislike what SE has done to the Feast and continues to do/not do, as do many players who even still participate, but that was entirely irrelevant to my main goal of offering helpful starter tips for a job I enjoy.
As it stands, and let me be blunt in saying it now, lest you think I need a "guard dog": If you know more, if you know better, and if you WANT a deeper guide, then you have every bit as much power and freedom to create one as I did to create a basics guide for one job, and I encourage you or anyone else to do so. And your time - everyone's time - would be better spent trying to build up newer PvPers who are interested, than trying to nitpick and point out things I didn't do in a HELPFUL video I didn't intend to do them in.
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05-17-2018, 01:08 PMNova_RoxNo one is belittling anyone here, the only issue FPZ has (I think), and honestly myself too, is that your friend helping you comes off as a bit...standoffish while at the same time kissing up to you and coming off as someone who really doesn't PvP outside of frontline roulette. Anyone who has played ranked knows that it's a completely different beast from any large scale map.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer
The guide is a good start, like I said, but it's really just taking a few sentences and turning it into a video. I would love to see more added to it, or a second video that consists of more insight.
As a side note; stop with the whole "if you don't like it then make a better one" stance. It's extremely childish. I'm sure you, and most people, have criticized a movie yet here we are and none of us have made a billion dollar movie before. If you want to make content, GREAT! I love it! But you also need to be prepared for criticism, good and bad, and improve from it. -
05-17-2018, 01:26 PMAlien_Gamer
From Lace:
Quote:
Fact is, I took the time to attempt to help. Maybe it'll help someone. It won't help anyone who knows these things already, and I knew that in making it. Between trying to criticize you for your wording, and me for everything I didn't do and didn't intend to do, and have clearly stated several times now, it's hardly childish to encourage others to add to the knowledge base. Unless suddenly I'm perhaps the authority on MCH play in PvP? If that were true, I'd be worried for us all. It's hardly an issue of criticism. It's entirely an issue of the whole point of the video going missed while looking for deeper insights into one given mode. Literally missing the forest cause of the trees.
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05-23-2018, 05:00 AMNyneSwordz
Ffxiv content makers are rare. And although I think it's fair that someone who makes something and puts it out there ought to expect criticism, the criticism should be fair and not harsh or abusive. It's a bit of a tangent, but I think it's wrong to suggest that some who are offended by others language should just get over it or have thicker skin instead of dealing with the abuser ie the one who could have chosen his or her words better. Anyway, vid is cool Lace.
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05-23-2018, 05:03 AMNyneSwordz
Yeah, that a bit of an overreaction to a criticism, fair or not. Everyone
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05-23-2018, 05:11 AMCrit
I'd create guides for all jobs to climb in ranked if I wasnt on ps4, rip
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05-24-2018, 01:27 AMAstrophysx"Tornado Kick and Forbidden Chakra." - Excerpt from Crit's Guide to Monk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crit