After Eureka came out, i got the set and i pentamelded everything. Before that i had a decent gear but now i can say i have a nice set except for savage gear. The problem is, when i run expert everytime with my SMN, i always get the aggro. Yesterday i used diversion like 10 times in the dungeon and still after it wore off, i got aggro. It is not the single run either, i have been experiencing this for a while now.
Tanks can get into this dungeon with ilvl325. i am ilvl 354 rn. there is a HUGE difference. I get aggro from my dots from a mob i am not directly attacking...
Please either increase the requirements now that getting gear is really easy - but boring - or just lvl sync expert dungeons after a certain ilvl. I don't wanna die in every run because of this thanks.
increase ilvl requirements for expert dungeons
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04-25-2018, 03:32 PMPerrinTaverenincrease ilvl requirements for expert dungeons
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04-25-2018, 03:40 PMBillyKaplan
They can't raise the ilvl requirements because dungeons are supposed to be casual catch-up. What's the point in requiring to queue in gear better than what the dungeon offers?
They'll hopefully introduce a max ilvl sync in the next patch, though it could be as long as when those three expert dungeons get merged with the 70 roulette, which means 4.4 -
04-25-2018, 03:46 PMKaivaC
I'd have to agree with the others in this one. What you are asking is not reasonable. If you were talking about tanks wearing i290 - 310 gear, that would be one thing. But tanks in ilvl325 in the current expert dungeons is perfectly fine. In situations like that, yes, the tanks could probably spam their aggro combo more, but you said you used diversion 'like 10 times' and that this is not the first time. If it is happening that much and you are sure that tanks are gearing gear anywhere between 320 - 330, then at that point, it is on the DPS to manage their own aggro. Just because Savage starts at 340, doesn't mean that the Expert dungeons should have a min ilvl requirement in that range.
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04-25-2018, 03:51 PMPerrinTaveren
ah yeah oki, i forgot people catch up with expert dungeons :D i am still sleepy. Well i didn't experience this when my friend tanked once who was like 350ish as well. I use my aggro reduction abilities but i can't hold off dps and just sit there to let tank get aggro more. Either the tanks don't know what to do, which i encountered, or it is an ilvl issue.
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04-25-2018, 03:59 PMKaivaCFolks don't ...really catch up with Expert dungeons. The gear from Hell's Lid and Fractal Hard barely allows players to do somewhat decently in Deltascape Savage. And look at what you just said. Your friend was 350ish...the tanks you are mentioning are in the 325 area...that is a huge difference in ilvls. Unfortunately, you may just have to bite the bullet if you are so strong that you rip aggro away from the tank. But don't blame the tanks if they're doing everything they can in 325 gear, which is what those dungeons reward.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren
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04-25-2018, 04:00 PMBillyKaplanA good tank can hold off higher geared dps so long as they know what they're doing. They just need to swallow their pride and accept their own personal deeps will suffer, but if the dps are that geared it'll more than make up for it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren
The people who use Expert roulette to play catch up with gear aren't going to set foot in Savage any time soon if at all, but that also means their sources of gear until they get tomestone or Eureka stuff are limited. It'll likely help in the normal mode raids if people even do that, you forget how big the casual crowd is in this game, at the very least - those who don't run Savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaivaC
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04-25-2018, 04:07 PMKaivaCAha...the elitist in me is still around apparently lol. My apologies, I honestly didn't think about that in my comment. In that case, yeah, the ilvl disparity makes sense. Still...as experts stand right now, I'd rather they just stay casual as opposed to the minimum ilvl being raised to what the OP may be suggesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
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04-25-2018, 05:04 PMBillyKaplanDon't worry about it. We each think first about what interests us and what we're into, it's more so human nature than elitism.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaivaC
No argument there. Expert roulette dungeons are a good way to keep up with gear to the bare minimum, especially if you're gearing up more than one job and can't sell your soul to Eureka to get full 355 across the board. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out though, because this is a repeat of what happened with Skalla where it's only the one dungeon added and forced into Expert roulette. Guess that's why they're locking the gear design winners behind them, to make sure people will farm the heck out of those dungeons.Quote:
Still...as experts stand right now, I'd rather they just stay casual as opposed to the minimum ilvl being raised to what the OP may be suggesting.
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04-25-2018, 05:10 PMPerrinTaveren
the problem is right now most people are 350+ with mendacity and eureka gear anyway, i don't count savage people at all, but they will probably release the next ex dungeon req for like 335 or 340. by the end of 4.3 we will probably be ilvl370. still, a huge distance. people can do sigma nm, they can do alliance raids, they can do eureka, they can even farm 330ilvl tome gear but no, SE needs to be super casual for ex dungeons for some reason.
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04-25-2018, 05:13 PMBillyKaplanThe reason being that dungeons are battle content aimed to the lowest common denominator which IS the super casual crowd. There's no need to worry though, those dungeons will get an ilvl cap as soon as they're merged into the 70 roulette, like Temple and Kugane Castle did. And by next patch that same casual crowd will have the added gear from the new dungeon so it'll make things slightly better.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren
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04-25-2018, 05:16 PMKaivaCI've had this argument many times before it had to be pointed out to me, but the casual base is much larger than the raid base. A lot of folks simply aren't interested in anything but MSQ. Others only go through it so they can craft, and others have zero interest in normal mode raids or the mindless grind that is eureka. Personally, I don't like that Ex dungeons are casual. But I understand the reasoning behind it. So if the alternative with EX dungeons is to raise the already forgiving min ilvl, I'd rather them just stay as casual as they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren
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04-25-2018, 05:18 PMEmmaVirgin
use diversion before you hit something. and if the light go to orange push on lucid dreaming. if you still get aggro then the tank didnt hit the enemy.
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04-25-2018, 05:20 PMPerrinTaveren
but then sync hard-core or mid-core players for that dungeon too. the tank yesterday wasn't bad, i am not saying i am too good but ilvl disparity makes tanks to hold aggro harder. If a tank can go into that roulette with 325 ilvl, you can't expect him to have a casual ride with a dps with 360 ilvl. Even though there are aggro reduction moves, %99 people don't even use them and blame tanks. So why make a casual content hard for tanks who are lower ilvl? I have seen a friend postin a healer who was ilvl325 with lv58 gear on the left side but who can fulfill req bec of eureka weapon and probably accessories.
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04-25-2018, 05:30 PMKaivaC
I can see I'm going to run out of daily posts going back and forth with you. Honestly, it's really not that difficult, just that tanks need to stay in tank stance and use their enmity tools more than usual. Hells Lid and Fractal Hard follow Skalla, which was ilvl315, I believe. I don't believe there is a patch cycle where the latest dungeons sync higher geared players - and they shouldn't. The party just needs to work better together. I dunno how you came up with casual content being hard for tanks because of overgeared DPS. Again, this is on the entire party.
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04-25-2018, 05:42 PMRinuko
If iLv were to be raised people who need to catch up would most likely be forced to purchase crafted gear/grind eureka to even able to run expert.
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04-25-2018, 05:56 PMBillyKaplanI think the problem here is the semantic trap in the roulette's name. "Expert". That means something rough, right? The skill test you need to beat. But look at what happens to Expert roulette dungeons after a patch or two, opposed to Savage content - they get mixed in with the rest of the crowd while the truly difficult content remains king.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaivaC
Expert roulette is simply the two-three newest max level dungeons that require the highest ilvl out of all the regular dungeons. There's nothing really special or end-game about it save for how much tomes they give.
And if people like that showed up in Savage somehow I'd see why you're upset. This is upsetting enough as-is in Expert roulette. But you're trying to police a crowd that no one, barely even SE, have the ability to police. Why do you think we don't have ilvl requirements on leveling dungeons, which I dare say is a bigger issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren
Is there room to refine the way ilvl is calculated? Absolutely. They should enforce a maximum gap between the required ilvl and your gear's actual ilvl to keep you from going into a level 50 dungeon with level 1 glamour gloves like the tank I had to heal in Keeper of the Lake yesterday. And as I said before, the ilvl sync is coming, it won't stay like that forever. But my experience so far has been that such gaps in equipment usually come towards the end of a patch's life, when people had time to farm the better gear while the casual people stayed behind. But by now, we're on the cusp of having new gear with the next patch to help mitigate it. You're just looking at the extreme low point of this cycle, but that doesn't mean the entire system needs an overhaul. -
04-25-2018, 07:40 PMAlien_Gamer
I can tell you from personal experience, as a tank, that i can hold enmity against both dps and a well geared healer dpsing that are all 30-40 ilvls over me. That you ran into a tank that couldn't just means its a bad/lazy tank. I had to stay in tank stance and spam my enmity combos and aoe enmity...but I'm a tank, thats my job.
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04-25-2018, 07:55 PMDerio
You have to remember that ex dungeons are mostly story dungeons, which have minimum ilvl requirements so people can get through the story. It sounds like the OP was with some unexperienced tanks.
If they were to raise the ilvl for expert dungeons you could see queue times spike up.
They are most likely to do a ilvl sync which I would hate for them to do. -
04-25-2018, 08:10 PMaestevalMaybe you should just not go into ex dungeons if you're that high ilvl and leave the dungeons for people who can make the most of it. :-p What are you getting out of it? Tomestones? You've got Eureka for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren
...sort of /s-ish a little -
04-25-2018, 08:16 PMaestevalThat's not a problem that's due to ilvl difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren
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04-25-2018, 09:16 PMLuinExpert dungeons have their minimum requirements set at a very specific ilvl for a reason, meant to gear players gradually. The minimum ilvl for Hell's Lid and Fractal HM is 310 and it drops 325 gear. Ala Mhigan gear is 310 and Sigmascape normal requires 325. Expert dungeons exist for players to quickly catch up to the current raid tier.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren
Basically you had a run of bad tanks. I did this on WAR in i310 leftside (with some dhit crafted rightside and belt) and had no trouble managing against i350 dps. Enmity generation is quite frankly, ridiculous. If you cant hold aggro it's either because you're playing poorly, or someone is doing single-target rotation.
Sigma NM - No you can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren
Deltascape - No. NM queues don't pop and people don't want to waste time in Savage, even for snake and Cat.
Alliance Raids - No, only Rabanastre will gear you.
Eureka - Slow
Farm Creation - Slow.
You're missing the point of them being CATCH-UP mechanisms. Slow methods of gearing like Eureka and Creation farming is not useful. Rabanastre is dead content because people don't run Alliance Roulette on 70s. Sigma NM can't even be accessed if you're using dungeons to catch-up since your ilvl is too low, and if you have a higher ilvl alt to feed Sigma tokens, then you weren't who those dungeons were designed for in the first place.
Expert dungeons NEED to be super casual, because they need the super casual way for players to quickly get to the current raid tier and geared to the minimum ilvl. Dungeons are the best for that. You only need 3 other people as opposed to 7 or 23, and a dungeon takes 20 minutes, as opposed to 50 minutes for Rabanastre or a week to farm a full Eureka or Creation gearset.
Edit- And going by trends, Ridorona will require i335 dropping i360, and Swallow's Compass at i330 dropping i345.
Also, yes, we will obviously still be at i370 cap. That's the point of odd-numbered patches. Odd=catch-up (and DoL/DoH). Even=new raid. That's why 24mans release in the odd-numbered patches, because 24mans drop upgrade tokens for capped tomestone gear. This is how the game has released content for years now. You can predict when everything is coming if you just look at old patch notes. -
04-25-2018, 09:49 PMAppleJinx
bring both diversion and lucid on summoner even though you don't really need either for trash pulls. Your tanks are just playing badly, which is the norm for roulette randos anyway so all is right with the world.
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04-25-2018, 11:15 PMVstarstruckNo its not, that is a skill issue. Speak up and if they do not improve or you wipe over it kick them. I seen i300 ish left and do fine, I seen way more and do flat out bad. Same can be said about healing as well, if you have that newish healer in i300 left its gonna be ruff.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren
The biggest issue here is it is not just ilevel that is the problem, it is low ilevel +being unskilled. Increasing ilevel requirements is not a fix, maybe having some kind of tutorial if you are new at 70 or um spific main stat value requirement to avoid right carrying the left too much. Lvl sync expert dungeons will also work but then you are not gonna have your 12 min runs .. so give and take I suppose. -
04-25-2018, 11:32 PMManuelBravo
While ilvl give you a good idea on stats to have to run the dungeon it is only a bare minimum requirement to participate. What determines the run is communication and player experience with their role. This what many players who are blinded by stats and expectations of others fail to understand. Tanks should keep in mind what they can pull and not feel pressured, should be able to gauge their party DPS on a first pull, and keep in mind the healer or at a minimum ask how comfortable they feel with speed runs. Healers should at a minimum able to speak up. Increasing ilvl requirements would really not make much of a difference, you can't teach experience to person who thinks they know their role.