I was leveling WAR, and I noticed a very big difference in usefulness and uniqueness in it, it's far more powerful than DRK early on and use most of the same DRK kit.
Let's compare every level and uniqueness of each one.
WAR Lv1 Heavy Swing 160
DRK Lv1 Hard Slash 150
Conclusion: WAR has more 10 potency than DRK.
WAR Lv4 Skull Sunder 210, + 10 Beast Gauge, + Emnity
DRK Lv4 Spinning Slash 220 + Emnity.
Conclusion: The Tank part of WAR sinergises well with their skills. DRK is just damage dealt with no synergy.
WAR Lv6 Bersek 4 GCD Crit+DH
DRK Lv6 Unleash AoE 50p + Emnity.
Conclusion: WAR gains a ability worth high level skill, and DRK a low damage AoE.
WAR Lv10 Overpower 130p AoE damage + Emnity
DRK Lvl 10 Syphon Strike 250p + MP.
Conclusion: WAR with Berserk + Overpower + Goad + Tactician = Meta. DRK with Unleash, but need to stop AoE to use Hard Slash > Syphon Strike to recover MP, cuz no one will use Mana Shift or Refresh for DRK, he's damage is bad.
WAR Lv 15 Tomahawk ranged 140p + emnity
DRK Lv 15 Unmend Ranged 150p + emnity + 30% chance for free MP Unleash.
Conclusion: While DRK gain 10p into ranged, why there is 30% chance for free Unleash? Unleash is already Useless 54+ for Abysal Drain, it would be better if would be Unleash OR Abyssal Drain MP free. Abyssal Drain and Unleash should be merged, they do the same thing, and would be 1 skill slot for a usefull skill.
WAR Lv 18 Maim 200p + 10% Slash dbuff + 10 Gauge.
DRK Lv 18 Blood Weapon 10% Atk Speed + MP
Conclusion: At this point we can get a feeling that DRK will do more damage in long fight, while WAR will do more in short fights.
WAR Lv 26 Thrill of Battle 20% + Max HP and Heal, 120s.
DRK Lv 26 Power Slash 300p + Emnity
Conclusion: DRK is doing more damage than WAR, and WAR do more mitigation and utility, but do much more AoE damage than DRK.
WAR LV 30 Butcher's Block 300p + Emnity + Beast Gauge, Ability, no cost.
WAR Lv 30 Defiance +25% HP, + 20% Dmg taken Reduction, -20% Damage,+ Emnity, -20% magic Heals, + 10% Parry.
DRK Lv 30 Grit 20% Dmg taken Reduction, - 20% Damage, + Emnity, GCD, MP cost.
DRK Lv 30 Darkside +20% Damage - All MP Refresh. MP cost.
Conclusion: WAR still benefits from others TP refresh, pluss +25% HP, + 10% Parry, and it's easy to Stance dance, since Defiance has no cost and it's Ability. DRK using Grit+Darkside still loses 4% Damage (100-20%=80; 80*1,2%=96=4% loss). WAR got the title of Parry tank + HP Tank + Burst + AoE Damage, while DRK ??, I really don't know, it regenerates MP for ?? Unleash? Bad. At least WAR regenerates Gauge for 10% more Parry. Still, DRK is suposed to do more 1x1 damage in long fights, and War everything else better. Also DRK suffer from stance dance since Grit and Darkside cost MP to active, and Grit is GCD.
WAR Lv 35 Inner Beast 350p , Ignores Defiance -20% damage penalty, HP Steal, 20% Damage Taken Reduction for 6s. 50 gauge cost.
DRK Lv 35 Blood Price Restores insignificant, ops, I mean, partial MP when damage is taken.
Conclusion: Basically WAR gains an early The Blackest Night + Damage + HP steal. DRK gains another skill to recover MP to use more Useless, I mean, Unleash. But let's compare Inner Beast with The Blackest Night. Inner Beast costs 50 Gauge and to recover that 50 points in a effective scenario, it's necessary 6 GCD, so, 6*2.5s= 15s, oohhhh, that's the same cooldown of The Blackest Night. While TBN fades when shield is broke, WAR still gets 20% Damage Reduction for more hits. TBN uses 20% HP shield, but why DRK has an HP shield if WAR is the HP Tank? It would synergyses better with Defiance +25%HP. And Inner Beast still has HP steal, same as DRK. Why Both have single and AoE HP Steal? War has more damage to AoE, so it should have HP steal on AoE, and DRK has more Single Target damage, so it should have HP steal on single Target. Lack of synergy.
WAR Lv 38 Storm's Path 280p, Hp Steal, + 20 Gauge.
DRK Lv 38 Souleater 300p, 10 Gauge(Lv62), Hp Steal only with Grit.
Conclusion: They are nearly the same, but WAR is better. WAR does synergyse really good with it's kit. Storm's Path combo is for mitigation, it recovers HP, with or without Defiance (let's remember that it will recover 20% more HP with no defiance), and to recover beast gauge faster to use Inner Beast Damage, Hp steal and 20% Dmg Reduction. But if the WAR is in a situation where there's no need for mitigation, it will go for the Butcher's Block Emnity combo. DRK is clunky, Souleater only recovers HP inside Grit, which is 20% dmg reduction or 4% with Darkside. There's no incentive for the Emnity combo, and no Skill yet to use gauge and the MP. There's no sense or core/unique mechanic, just a bad copy of WAR.
WAR Lv 40 Unchained Nullifies Defiance's the damage penalty, during 20s. 90s CD.
DRK Lv 40 Dark Passenger AoE 100p, cost 1/4 MP. 30s CD. Darkside must be active.
Conclusion: While WAR got a better version of Darkside (Unchained removes 20% of the penalty, while Darkside only removes 16% and stops MP refresh, while costs MP to active again), DRK got a cooldown, which costs MP to do useless damage. But wait, if it costs MP, why it has Cooldown? And if it has Cooldown, why does it cost MP? they must chose one, not both. It should be single target damage skill, or whatever, it's just bad now.
WAR Lv 42 Holmgang Imortal for 6s, + bind, + draw in. 180s CD.
DRK Lv 42 Dark Mind 15% Magic Damage reduction, 30% with Dark Arts for 10s. 60s CD.
Conclusion: Basicaly, WAR got a better version of Living Dead and DRK got a anti Tank burst that most of the game is not designed for it. Let's compare Holmgang and living dead. Holmgang can be used solo, and you will still recover from it, and it has 180s cooldown. Living dead you need to use it and pray to be killed, so that's a worth use, since it has 300s cooldown, you can't use it solo, because you will die if you're not full healed. Basicaly Living Dead is a worse copy of Holmgang.
WAR Lv 45 Steel Cyclone AoE 200p + HP steal + Ignores Defiance's damage penalty.
DRK Lv 45 Dark Arts 1/4 MP for the next skill adds 140p for Souleater/Syphon/Dark Passenger +140p +Blind 15s, or changes Dark Mind to 30% magical Dmg reduction.
Conclusion: While WAR got Berserk Lv6 and Gauge and alot of synergy, DRK starts only to know what basic synergy is at Lv 45. WAR got Steel Cyclone, which is a better version of Abyssal Drain. It's a burst HP heal, that you can use 2 times or more at high levels. And Abyssal Drain Costs 1/8 of MP bar, costs another 1/4 to use Dark Arts to be able to Hp steal the 120p, while most of the time is with the -20% dmg grit penalty... That's too punishing.
WAR Lv 46 Vengeance 30% Dmg taken reduction + 55p per damage received, 120s CD.
DRK Lv 46 Shadow Wall 30% Dmg Taken, 180s CD.
Conclusion: Why? DRK is, again, a bad copy of WAR. Higher CD, same Dmg taken reduction, while not doing 55p per damage received. It is only badly countered by Blood Price, but only at high levels, since 55p per damage received is far more good than 1 blood gauge per damage received.
WAR Lv 50 Storm's Eye 280p + 10% Damage for 30s + 10 Gauge.
WAR Lv 50 Infuriate +50 gauge. 60s CD
DRK Lv 50 Living Dead.
Conclusion: While WAR gains 2 usefull skills, DRK gains a bad copy of Holmgang.
WAR Lv 52 Deliverance +5% Damage + 10% Crit rate. Ability.
DRK Lv 52 Salted Earth AoE 75p damage every 3s for 21s (525p) , 45s CD. 1 Gauge per damage.
Conclusion: Salted Earth is a really good skill for AoE, it restores gauge equal to the number of enemies, every 3s. Synergyses well with Quietus and Blood Price. I thinks it's a proud unique skill of DRK. But while DRK has only Blood Weapon+Darksie, WAR has Unchained + Berserk + Deliverance, offering a lot more than DRK.
WAR Lv 54 Fell Cleave 520p, 50 gauge cost.
DRK Lv 54 Plunge Gap Close 200p 30s CD
Conclusion: While Plunge was a unique skill in heavensward, it’s not anymore, since WAR got Onslaught, so it has 2 skills anti knockback, Onslaugh and Inner Release. And Onlaugh is better than Plunge, since its 20y range, 15s CD and increases Emnity, plunge is only better at Damage.
WAR Lv 56 Raw Intuition 100% Parry for 20s, but critical damage from flank and rear. 90s CD.
DRK Lv 56 Abyssal Drain 120p AoE + Emnity, costs ~1/8 MP. Dark arts to HP steal.
Conclusion: Raw intuition synergises really god with Awareness, so you can use Raw intuition for boss, and for AoE use Awareness too to nullify critical chance for 25s. DRK Abyssal Drain is good, but the dark arts effect not much, since it does not add damage to it, nor nullify Grit penalty, the heal is not good. I’d rather use Abyssal Drain only for damage without any dark arts.
WAR Lv 58 Equilibrium Hp heal with Defiance, TP heal with Deliverance. 60s CD.
DRK Lv 58 Sole Survivor 20% Hp and Mp heal when enemy is KO’d with it, within 15s. 120s CD.
Conclusion: WAR is so much better. Only half cooldown and synergyse with it’s kit. Sole Survivor is a very bad skill. This skill should work diferently, DRK should be able to restore 20% HP/MP on reuse after enemy KO with sole surivor, something like Third Eye of Samurai. Restore on KO should be an additional effect, not the core effect, that’s bad design and bad versatility.
WAR Lv 60 Decimate AoE 280p
DRK Lv 60 Carve and Spit 100p + 1/8MP restore or changes to 450p with dark arts.
Conclusion: WAR got deliverance version of Steel Cyclone, ok, good synergy. DRK got a unique skill, but it’s only good with Dark Arts. Carve and Spit should recover at between 3800 to 6000 MP since Dark Arts adds +350p to this skill, MP to Dark Arts has more value than the other usages. DA 140p = 2400 MP, then DA(CS) +350p = 6000 MP power. What should DRK choose? 6000 MP power or 1400 MP restore? That’s too much punishing.
WAR Lv 62 Onslaught Gap Close 100p, 15s CD, 20 gauge, 20 yalms, + Emnity.
DRK Lv 62 Delirium Restores 1/4 MP and adds 8s to Blood Weapon or 16s to Blood Price. 80s CD. Costs 50 gauge.
Conclusion: DRK is one of the few Jobs that Cooldown still costs something, that’s nonsense. This skill should be deleted and should be the additional effect of Bloodspiller and Quietus, that would be so much better. WAR got a better version of Plunge for survivability.
WAR Lv 64 Upheaval 300p that changes potency proportional to max HP and remaining HP.
DRK Quietus 160 AoE + MP drain, 210p with Dark Arts.
Conclusion: WAR got another skill with good synergy. DRK got a bad version of Steel Cyclone. While Steel Cyclone uses the same 50 gauge cost, it does 200p AoE, nulifying 20% damage penalty of Defiance, + HP steal. DRK Quietus we need to invest 50 gauge to 160p, or 50 gauge + 2400 MP for dark arts, this equals to 100 Gauge, just to be able to do 210p, then we need to use 1320 MP+2400MP to use HP Steal from Abyssal Drain, which is 120p + penalty from Grit = Poor HP steal. That’s justs unrewarding.
WAR Lv 68 Shake It Off 8% party wide HP shield, pluss 4% for each of cooldown actives, total 24% Hp shield party wide. 90s CD, no cost.
DRK Bloodspiller 400p, cost 50 gauge. +140p with Dark Arts, and ignores Grit damage penalty.
Conclusion: Shake It Off is another example of good synergy and versatility. Bloodspiller is a bad cheap version of Fell Cleave. As DRK was not copied WAR enough.
WAR Lv 70 Inner Release Anti bad status for 10 + Berserk effect. 90s CD.
DRK Lv 70 The Blackest Night 20% self HP shield, or 10% party member HP shield for 7s. Restores 50 gauge on break. Costs 1/4 MP.
Conclusion: TBN should be rewarded earlyer. It’s like rewarding Inner Release intead of Berserk on Lv 6, and rewarding Berserk only at Lv 70, that’s how we DRK are feeling.
Final Conclusion:
DRK is too much copy of WAR, also WAR is sometimes a copy of DRK, but WAR is still unique and usefull for all situations, very versatile, while DRK is a pity poor punished for every move and even not better tank. DRK needs unique synergies, it had when Heavensward was a thing with Dark Dance, reprisal, Scourge and low blow parry reproc.
Sole Survivor should be reworked, it could be something with synergy with "Living Dead" solo, survivability and raid utility. Something like: Marks target with the status Another Victim. For the next 15 seconds, 100% of damage inflicted upon the target is compiled and converted to your HP at the end of the effect's duration. Reuse for instant convert. Effect end upon reuse.
Additional Effect: 10% of the converted ammount that surpasses self maximum HP will be converted into a Barrier around self and all nearby party members that absorbs damage up to a maximum of 20% of maximum HP for 15s.
Like, there’s so much room for synergy, creativity and uniqueness and they just copy WAR skills.
Spinning Slash and Power Slash could have combo bônus with parry, adding potency if DRK parry some attack, so that there some motive to use Power Slash combo.
I could write all night about cool synergy, it’s so easy, but I’m not motived enough, and it’s actually Devs work, and I’m not a Dev.
I could have compared every single detail, like, MP potency, TP usage potency, and sum all that with the skill, but you can see even without all these detais that WAR has a better kit than DRK. The suffering of DRK is not in little details, but in core mechanics and synergy with the whole kit.
I wish a rework for DRK, so it can be more DRK and less WAR.
Is DRK unique or a bad copy of WAR?
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04-13-2018, 12:45 PMLeoLupinosIs DRK unique or a bad copy of WAR?
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04-13-2018, 01:11 PMHugowulf
I think I missed the point of this post somewhere in the wall of text. Though yes a lot of people wish to have DRK reworked, the number of other threads show that.
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04-13-2018, 02:43 PMSaeno
I think it's more of a copy of PLD than WAR considering how similar their abilities are to PLD. Grit, (old) Shadowskin, Blackest night, Living dead and Shadow wall are all similar to PLD's CDs. I don't think its really an issue, I just wish the job felt more unique. And by unique, I don't mean all of their abilities being weaker than the other tanks.
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04-13-2018, 03:18 PMAwful
It's not that Drk is a bad copy of War it's just it has no identity anymore since SB launched as before SB in ARR and HW Pld couldn't block magic, now it can, something that Drk had over Pld was reducing magic damage and being the king of it, if anything Drk was a harder hitting Pld back in HW and you swapped them out either if the fights were physical or magic based.
Since SB Drk lost a lot of their kit as they lost:
-Reprisal damage and duration
-Delirium being an INT down as well as a 3rd combo
-Dark Mind being an edge over other tanks
-Blood Price being used outside of Grit
-Lost Scourge/Shadowskin/Low Blow procs
Now in SB Pld is the best supportive tank around, it brings so many tools to the table and didn't lose anything coming into SB, they actually gained a lot, so I agree with the post above me if anything Drk was just a stronger Pld now it's shifted again where it's either Drk or Pld suffers and if War does get nerfed it gets buffed sooner than any other tank, tank balance was something they wanted to focus on but that's not the case so far.
Maybe 4.3 or later down the road Drk will get it's ground again but we'll have to see but as it stands Drk has no identity as of this moment, War is the DPS bursty/low CD tank and Pld is the ultimate support/better option for raiding Drk has no identity anymore. -
04-22-2018, 12:12 PMwhiteblade89
One thing that I feel made drk unique in HW as opposed to SB was the synergy between DA+DP and DA+DD. It made sense in a weird way that a tank that was essentially a middle ground between PLD and WAR would have mitigation that allowed them to dodge rather than block. Did it make sense seeing as they used a gigantic sword? Not really. But it was unique, imo. Nowadays though, DP isn't worth using unless you have an obscene amount of enemies on you and are overflowing with Mana. And DD is now anticipation and has no DA effect. It's a shame. I feel like DRK had a lot of things going for it back in HW but SE just.....missed the mark when it came to expanding their tool kit. It just feels too clunky now and their mitigation just doesn't feel as satisfying as it used to. TBN is good, but I do hate that it costs as much as a DA. But maybe 4.3 will change them a bit. Here's to hoping!
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04-23-2018, 10:50 AMWhyAmIHere
PLD has Shield Lob, Holy Spirit, and Tempered Will.
DRK has Dark Passenger, Plunge, Unmend, Abyssal Drain.
WAR has Tomahawk, Holmgang, Inner Release, and Onslaught.
If anything, WAR's just a greedy "I want what everyone else has" tank. -
04-24-2018, 07:17 AMIzshaThat is a really random list of abilities. What in the world does this show exactly? I mean why are we listing ranged enmity pulling moves of lob/toma/unmend? Yes, they can all agro a thing. Plunge/onslaught/tempered will, ok. They are kinda related if you only look at knockbacks. Holy spirit, dark passenger, holmgang? Wtf do those have to do with each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
You just made a random list of abilities with no context and said "wars are just greedy". Explain prz. -
04-24-2018, 07:56 AMDhaidTrimmed out the stuff that made no sense (holy spirit has nothing to do with anything else, nor does abyssal drain or holmgang)Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Yeah WAR did get these tools, and a good argument could be made that they got a better version of Plunge while getting a worse version of Tempered Will. -
04-24-2018, 08:31 AMExiled_Tonberry
So much for not adding tanks or healers in SB because they wanted to focus on the balance and identity of the current ones.
It's pretty apparent that SE can't develop interesting tanks or healers, at best DRK and AST are a mixture of what we already had with a gimmick thrown on top. -
04-24-2018, 09:03 AMDhaidThey DID do that though. I'm not sure about the specifics of pre and post SB for AST and the other healers, but letting PLD finally block magic attacks and giving them holy magic for more damage as well as letting WAR's loose with Inner Release certainly do concern the balance and identity of the tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
DRK got the short end of the stick, what with a random focus on gauges and the removal of reprisal (their most loved skill lost if the forums are to be believed) for a role skill so all tanks can help the main tank during a tankbuster. I'm not dissing The Blackest Night, but altering DRK from the atk down tank to the barrier tank was a change nobody asked for. -
04-24-2018, 10:09 AMBiridan
PLD and WAR are very closely related. DRK is related only in that it usually takes two steps to do what the other tanks do in one.
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04-24-2018, 10:14 AMExiled_TonberryLooking at the healers, WHMs identity as the "big healer" is shaky at best, especially with he edition of stuff like Earthly Star and the buffed indom. On CDs sure, but they're actually stronger that what a WHM can do, while being easier to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhaid
For tank you already mentioned it. PLD and WAR got into their identities pretty well, but DRK is just lost. It does nothing better or unique as a tank, and it's just sad really.
When I heard Yoshi say this, I thought we would actually see some really nice pushes towards all healers and tank feeling unique. Instead it really feels like nothing has changed. -
04-24-2018, 10:37 AMDhaidNot really sure what you mean by this, can ya give some examples? Only thing I can think of is that they don't have an oGCD for generating enmity, like Circle of Scorn or OnslaughtQuote:
Originally Posted by Biridan
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04-24-2018, 09:54 PMMalkria
To be frank, both the healers and tanks play the same up to about the level 50. It's here that all the classes have enough of the 'basics' to allow the mechanics to really start to shine. I mean both the white mage and astrologian pretty much play the same to this point too. But considering how the lower level content was built and balanced, it makes sense. So yes, you are going to see a bit of overlap.
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04-25-2018, 04:16 AMLuinAs much as DRKs hate to share the love, giving Reprisal to all tanks allows better fight design. That's a good change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhaid
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The problem with that is it wasnt replaced. Dark Knight lost EVERYTHING and got nothing in return, except a mediocre Fell Cleave. They changed from fast-paced proc and debuff management to a PLD clone with 1 ridiculously powerful shield.
He means balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhaid
In that sense they're all very close. Same problem all jobs have, parts of the community think the one that isn't used for speedkilling is unusable, even though most of the community can't even attempt a proper speedkill.
Enmity isnt an issue (and besides, Onslaught and CoS arent really enmity tools), since WAR does the pull anyway, DAPS got buffed ridiculously, and Shadewalker is still in the game.
The problem most DRKs have with the job is that it's just Paladin, but less. DRKs want high APM, but right now DRK APM isn't Actions-Per-Minute so much as it is Dark Arts-Per-Minute. Whereas in Heavensward you were smashing Low Blow/Reprisal and maintaining Scourge and Delirium, now you're just doing 1-2-3 over and over, using Dark Arts on BS and SE. And you do that for 6-10 minutes, and your cooldown "rotation" consists primarily of TBN, and if the fight allows, Dark Mind. Since you don't even have burst for TA or other raid buffs, your 'optimization' is mostly ~90 blood and ~6000mp every 60 seconds. Not hard to do.
Basically, DRK's problem is it isn't fun.