Discussion on clearing content without your raid group.

Heyo everyone! First time posting here and I thought I would hopefully begin a discussion I haven't actually been able to find yet (If there is a topic for this, please let me know so I can migrate over to there).

Now to take a real life example into consideration, I am part of a raid group in game. After being goaded into clearing O3S at the time with pick-up groups (by a member of the group I may add), I was scolded and even shamed within the raid chat by the leader for clearing it without them.

Anyways, steering back to the discussion in hand, I was wondering about how people felt about the idea of clearing content in your own time, without any drawback to the group? Do you take the side of clearing it all together, or feeling like each person should be fine to continue their own progression, or even a bit of both? Please let me know, I'm eager to know more and see the sides!

I don't think there's any problem with this as long as you're not hurting the group (for example, clearing a turn before your group is done raiding on that turn for the week, which would instantly reduce loot to 1 chest if you cleared). In fact, I feel the people in the group should have been happy for the fact you're clearing.

They shouldn't be angry or shame you if they can't clear the content due to their own shortcomings, and likewise, you should not be denied your own progression - again, as long as you're not hurting the team in any tangible form.

For the current savage-raid its obviously a no-go to go in alone when you're part of a static - for the simple reason of chests (you'll get less if people have already cleared it for the week). But thats the only context in which I consider such a behaviour okay.

For other content its a bit more difficult to say - in general I'd say everyone has the right to progress in their own time. Personally I like clearing content with my friends for the first time, so I'll often wait for them, but given you follow a few "ground rules" it should be perfectly fine to go ahead and clear it on your own.
For me those ground rules are:
1) Communicate with your group - specially when new content comes out, talk about wether or not you want to do it together (if you want to, pick a date!) or if its "free for all". Stick to that agreement - with new content I'm willing to wait a week for everyone (on average, depends how intrested I'm in it). If it doesnt happen til then, I'll go on my own. Again: Thats something I communicate to my group.
2) In case your raid-group still wants to run the content blind, keep your mouth shut if you've already cleared it and dont spoil that fun for them!

I used to be in an FC where the FC-leader would get outright hostile when I went ahead and cleared EX-primals and the like with other friends - and that after I had waited for him to set aside 2 hours for that content for weeks. He wasnt short on time, basically on 24/7, but always found a reason not to do that content when I asked. It was a pretty bad situation - I hated raiding because I always had to kinda do it behind his back, even though he wasnt really intrested in that content he had issues with me clearing Ex-Primals and Coils. I can only strongly advice you: Run when you meet a person like that! Its a goddamn game, you're playing to have freaking fun - not to be shamed for playing content that helps you achieve excatly that! No one has the right to scold you for that. Period.

However, refering back to my ground rules and my new FC: We're following the first rule, basically. We talk about how we want to play the content - and its okay if someone says "Hey, I want to go ahead and clear that asap!" even if the rest is like "Yeah, we wont have time til the weekend and we'll go in as group then". The important thing is to communicate about those things, come to an agreement and stick to that.
"Betraying" such a "promise" (as in: "We'll all do Savage together on friday") is not okay in my book - but not sticking to an agreement with friends would never be okay, regardless of ingame or outside of it. That being said: if the agreement was "We'll do that friday" and people dont show up on friday and you re-schedulde and people dont show up or its gets postponed again, I'd consider it perfectly fine to say "Okay, I've waited now for a while, but this doesnt seem to work right now. I really want to see this content though, so I'll go ahead on my own - everyone is welcome to join ofc, but if you rather wait for Jimmy, thats fine too!"

In general: You're playing this game to have fun - so make sure you surrond yourself with people who share your idea of "fun"! Stick to your word - but also stand your ground, when there is no word to stick to!

Please, please dont repeat my mistake and stick with someone who makes you feel miserable for clearing content a month after release without them because they cant get their shit together - it ruins your fun in- and outside of the game... and you're not paying 13€ a month for that.

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Originally Posted by Arlinne

each person should be fine to continue their own progression

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This, assuming the team is done progressing for the week. Getting mad at you for learning the fight further and having a chance at loot is very petty because those things can only help your group the following week.

If you show up to each scheduled raid day and don't reduce any chests from static runs it's none of their business what you do with the rest of your game time. However, getting yourself a clear and ruining the loot chests for your static would be pretty selfish IMO. (Unless it was an accident like if you joined a practice group which happened to clear.)

If the group is done for the week and you cleared, I don't see why anyone would be miffed. So long as your not taking chest away from your group its all good.

My group has it so that we don't do any current raids before our assigned days. Once we've done our days and got our clears it's fair game afterwards. This way we can try stuff ourselves and share anything we happen to find with the group to try out next week.

dont reduce your groups chests. That's why its not something you do.

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

I don't think there's any problem with this as long as you're not hurting the group (for example, clearing a turn before your group is done raiding on that turn for the week, which would instantly reduce loot to 1 chest if you cleared). In fact, I feel the people in the group should have been happy for the fact you're clearing.

They shouldn't be angry or shame you if they can't clear the content due to their own shortcomings, and likewise, you should not be denied your own progression - again, as long as you're not hurting the team in any tangible form.

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Pretty much this. It's highly disrespectful to go for a clear when you guys aren't done raiding for the week. Other than that, before you pug, you can extend an invitation to any of your group's members to join you in PF and pug together.

There are many factors though: How close is your group from clearing? As a personal story, back in Creator, my static was unable to clear A11S. They were having lots of issues during the first Limit Cut and barely making it through Lapis. We raided Tues-Thrus. So, during the weekends, I was able to clear the fights I wasn't able to with them (TFW pugs are better than your own group -.-). Some of my members appreciated it, since I gathered enough experience to teach them how to deal with some mechanics they were struggling with.

People don't like it mostly because the people who go out and clear it with pugs over time will leave the raid group. Plus, if you have someone goading you, it's not a good sign anyways because to me it sounds like "If you're so hot and we are so bad, why don't you go clear it with a pug then?" is what happened.

If your raid group isn't clearing the floor you pugged to clear, it isn't disrespectful at all, and anyone mad over it is just petty.

As others said, only reason for the group to be upset is if you screw them out of a chest for the week, but that's only if they're clearing

It's a possibility that the raid leader has the mentality that all things must be done together but I find that could be detrimental. When I did progression, the mentality was that once your raid week is done and there weren't any more scheduled raids with the group that you were free to do as you wish. Practice to clear. Clear. Don't raid at all. So long as the group's progression was not hindered (ie chests) then it was actually for the better. You bring back possible tips or suggestions. You yourself in that clear might have gotten upgrades etc. Maybe there's a better way to handle the mechanic than you thought. Maybe they can be using a different aoe heal.

It's also a possibility that you are now seeing a very different mentality about how your group should progress and that this may be an indication that you will in fact not get along with the raid lead.

I'm not sure if your words are correct or if you thought you used the correct word but didn't... How'd you get 'goaded' into progressing? Did you not want to?? If your scheduled raids aren't done, yes you messed up.

People still raid with statics and groups? Its like destroying friendships with uno or monopoly.

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Originally Posted by Soupa

People still raid with statics and groups? Its like destroying friendships with uno or monopoly.

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NEST would like a word with you on that!

As for the OP. Sounds like a group that doesn't jive with you, so you might be best placed to look elsewhere. That's fine, you won't jive with every group. I created a static and lost most of the members because it wasn't what they were expecting (they were expecting more serious progression, something which I am pushing towards, while somehow keeping all of the humour so it's entertaining for people to watch), so it's OK if you don't feel right in that group.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

NEST would like a word with you on that!

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Oh no. Heavens forbid there an actual exception to the rule that makes it work because they have wonderful group chemistry. Raided in 2.0, 3.0, and 4.0 never found a static that didn't result in explosions and all my friends leaving, maybe I'm the crummy person I dunno. If I ever raid again it'll be PF Pug only. Statics are a lost cause to me, if you guys make it work great 10/10 go for it. Eureka is my city now.

Oh and hey OP leave your group, your static sounds like a buncha jerks for scolding you for trying to improve yourself on your own.

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Originally Posted by Soupa

Oh no. Heavens forbid there an actual exception to the rule that makes it work because they have wonderful group chemistry. Raided in 2.0, 3.0, and 4.0 never found a static that didn't result in explosions and all my friends leaving, maybe I'm the crummy person I dunno. If I ever raid again it'll be PF Pug only. Statics are a lost cause to me, if you guys make it work great 10/10 go for it. Eureka is my city now.

Oh and hey OP leave your group, your static sounds like a buncha jerks for scolding you for trying to improve yourself on your own.

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Perhaps you're the actual exception to the rule? Some people get crazy in statics, some don't. Who knows where the majority lies.

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Originally Posted by Soupa

People still raid with statics and groups? Its like destroying friendships with uno or monopoly.

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Yes, they do. It's fairly common. Even if it lasts for a tier or two, some people still prefer to go with the same group over and over for the sake of consistency and optimization.

OP said o3s.. so chests shouldn't be a problem? what was this leader saying to you? or saying to the other member in the static that nugged you to go?

My static pretty much has a standing rule (and it's more of a guideline, as we all are friends and get along) that for content in which we're still progressing, folks are free to get any kind of practice INCLUDING the win outside of the group, even if it reduces our chests once we finally do get the win. Having folks with clear experience is well worth one week's chest shortage. By the same token, on days when we need to replace members that can't be in attendance we do not turn up our noses at veterans who already have the week's clear, even though it costs us a chest. Once again, their experience is worth the price.

For content that we have on farm, members are either expected to save the weekly clear for the group, or we all agree ahead of time to individually get the clear in PUGs before we meet (so as to save time in getting to the content we're progressing on).

Apparently I have an unpopular oppinion on this topic:

What's the point of having a static if you run off to clear content with pugs? Don't get me wrong, I don't mind that static members re-clear stuff after the static got their 2 chests but I do mind if the static is still progressing in one turn. That might don't hurt the static directly because there might be no kill in this week anyway but then again it kills (some of the) feeling of accomplishment if you finally be able to clear it with your static. Because fights always get easier if one or more already have the kill.

But it seems I'm old-fashioned that way.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

OP said o3s.. so chests shouldn't be a problem?

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They said "at the time", so I imagine this situation happened to OP when chest-lock on Deltascape Savage was still a thing.

As far as my static is concerned, we progress together and then past the last raid day, you're free to pug with others. Unfortunately, our static raids mostly on weekends, so our only real day to try to get a late clear in is Mondays or late Sunday if our raid is done and parties are up. I think most statics adopt this? I've heard some statics don't care and encourage people to clear during progression for the experience?

Aye, to answer a few questions:

I was called out by the off-tank of the group that "If you can clear O3S I would buy you a house". Obviously it was more of a joke bet and I expected nothing serious from actually achieving the victory but I thought it would be fun to try! We had only seen last phase a few times within about 8 weeks of practice, and it was the last raid of the week, and furthermore no one actively said no to it while the bet was being engaged, so I assumed I had the right to do so.

I will fully admit that I would not attempt to gain a win, nor participate in any group currently doing a fight if we still had at least one raid day left. Ruining chests is not fun, and so I would only do a pick-up shot at a fight if raid was finished for that week.

Finally, I get along with everyone within the raid outside of the raid times. We're basically two happy FCs connected, and so we have a laugh and general funsies outside of the time.

the reason I bring this up, by the way, is due to our raid stuck at Virus from O7S for about four weeks now, and I grew tired and even found myself a little angry at the lack of progress, so I was thinking of attempting it with PUGs for a clear and getting some gear to help out with the second half of the fight, to also keep myself tempered and not get more irritated at what is essentially wasted time. (Though it was fun time!)

If you're not taking chests from anyone, having someone that cleared in the party is a positive for the rest of the group. Tell the OT to bite you.

Four weeks of virus prog also points to a problem within the group. Either there is too much time being wasted between pulls resulting in not enough actual practice time, the raid's strategy is flawed, or a member needs a helping hand. I would make a mental note of the repeat offender(s) and reach out to them privately after the raid. It's possible they've misunderstood the mechanics.

I got yelled at this before too.

I too got shamed for doing it, but we were done clearing for the week, it was a MONDAY NIGHT, and I even posted in the discord that i'd be putting it in the PF for anyone available to join. When no one responded, I went on my merry way.

My group sucked tho, always having people need to reschedule, forgetting mechanics, and holding others back... So if an opportunity arises to improve yourself (which in turn improves the group), I dont see an issue with it

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Originally Posted by Driavna

You did everything right, once the raid week is over if you want to keep going with randoms is no problem at all. Looks like someone was salty about your clear and that's the real problem.

Also, after so many weeks without progress, I say that something is wrong there and need to be corrected. If can't be fixed and you are not happy perhaps it's time to find another static before you resent the game our your current group.

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This is very very true, and should be heeded. Some groups just dont have the organization and/or leadership to stay cohesive and progress after a week or so of struggling on the same fight.

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Originally Posted by Arlinne

Heyo everyone! First time posting here and I thought I would hopefully begin a discussion I haven't actually been able to find yet (If there is a topic for this, please let me know so I can migrate over to there).

Now to take a real life example into consideration, I am part of a raid group in game. After being goaded into clearing O3S at the time with pick-up groups (by a member of the group I may add), I was scolded and even shamed within the raid chat by the leader for clearing it without them.


Anyways, steering back to the discussion in hand, I was wondering about how people felt about the idea of clearing content in your own time, without any drawback to the group? Do you take the side of clearing it all together, or feeling like each person should be fine to continue their own progression, or even a bit of both? Please let me know, I'm eager to know more and see the sides!

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As a guild officer in WoW this was my recent stance:
You clear stuff on your own time: Great more practice, less errors more knowledge and possibly input on tactics that work for others and might work for us.

However: In the days of old: if you get yourself an ID/Lockout and subsequently can't clear the encounter with us, then we would not tolerate it because you would actively hinder our progress.

Not entirely sure how it works in FF but as long as you can help your group kill stuff, I find it idiotic to QQ about s/o putting in extra effort. Unless you are "Ermagawd how dumb are you, even randoms killed this faster!1". Then you deserve to get some FLAK. :D

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Originally Posted by Granyala

However: In the days of old: if you get yourself an ID/Lockout and subsequently can't clear the encounter with us, then we would not tolerate it because you would actively hinder our progress.

Not entirely sure how it works in FF but as long as you can help your group kill stuff, I find it idiotic to QQ about s/o putting in extra effort. Unless you are "Ermagawd how dumb are you, even randoms killed this faster!1". Then you deserve to get some FLAK. :D

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Way it works in Final Fantasy XIV is if you get the clear: you're locked out of loot until reset, plus number of clears for the week influences number of chests on clear.
0 previous clears that week: 2 chests
1-4 previous clears: 1 chest
5-7 (potentially 8 too, can you go on a floor if all 8 members have cleared it for the week?): 0 chests

So you do hinder progress by means of reducing loot that comes in from the clear for the rest of the static.

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Originally Posted by Arlinne

Now to take a real life example into consideration, I am part of a raid group in game. After being goaded into clearing O3S at the time with pick-up groups (by a member of the group I may add), I was scolded and even shamed within the raid chat by the leader for clearing it without them.

Anyways, steering back to the discussion in hand, I was wondering about how people felt about the idea of clearing content in your own time, without any drawback to the group? Do you take the side of clearing it all together, or feeling like each person should be fine to continue their own progression, or even a bit of both? Please let me know, I'm eager to know more and see the sides!

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As long as you are doing it after all of your static's scheduled raid times are done (don't want to screw your group out of getting 2 chests) I don't see the problem at all since the group apparently didn't put any rules about pugging after.

The only thing I would say would be a jerk move to do would be if you (or anyone else in your static) personally created the PF, but didn't extend invites to the rest of the players in your static first before pugging the slots either by FC/LS/Tell or even leaving an @ in the discord that you are making a PF (even if it is outside scheduled raid times).

If no response or they aren't available to go then no problem make your PF and pug the slots, but if they are online and you don't bother asking them if they would also like to join even though you (or another static member) are the ones personally creating the PF that would be pretty darn rude in my opinion.

A static is a static so ignoring other members of it to prioritize your own clear doesn't seem like a nice thing to do imo. It would sort of send a message of "I don't think I can clear with you so I'm not going to invite you even though we are supposed to be a team and you are online and might go if I asked". Even worse if your static is decently close and consider each other friends.

If you are just joining other random player's PFs then it doesn't really apply since it may be hard to find a PF open enough that you can all join, but you could still let people know so they could try to join a group with you, but no big deal if it doesn't work out. It isn't the same thing as if you or another member of your static were the ones creating the PF personally.

Not accusing you of doing this, just stating a specific situation where I could see people getting upset about PFing outside your savage static for savage floors. As long as you aren't ignoring static members who are online and if you are the one making the PF and you are making a gesture to invite them also then there is no issue that I can see.

I mean just in general if anyone gets to the point of snubbing certain members of their static and/or trying to sneakily avoid playing with them they may want to think about why they are staying in that static, might be time for a change.

To me it seems like they asked you to go do it, you did, and then they shamed you for doing so.

That's kind of shame on them - if I understand right. EVEN IF you had done it before the raid and reduced their chest count... they dared you to go do it... and you responded in kind.

But under a 'normal fact pattern'... I'd say as long as someone does their PUG after the day of the static... fine. Helpful even. The more people who know how to clear content the better.

As to the poster who talks about 'why is anybody using statics anymore'... I'll also bring up WoW.

I'm tanking for a heroic antorus raid group in WoW right now... and our constant nightmare is not enough DPS... Every week we have to PUG in about 6+ DPS, and then 1 healer...
- Between fights, or on any wipe, a few of them leave. No tolerance for working to a goal... And even if it is just 1... we spend 10-30 minutes before the next pull replacing. Even if we find the replacement right away, we have to get them there, go over our strat, get them into discord, and so on...

My raid lead over in WoW spends every night after the raid venting in discord about this... and complaining about how hard it is to recruit DPS in WoW at this late stage of an expansion where... everybody is now playing their other MMOs, like FFXIV (/waves a catpaw).

Having a nice, stable static roster you can depend on... to be there at the start of raid time, and willing to stick it out through 312 wipes that night because they know the other people and they value learning not JUST the fight but also how to work better as a team and even value hearing the voices of those people in discord talking about life and stuff...
- That's gold.

Last time I had that in ANY MMO was maybe 2011... Came close in 2013 in WoW... but we had a micro-manager of a raid boss (the guy was trying to pic our individual talents, rotations, and I think even gave me transmog "advice" at one point)...

Don't pass up the value of a good static.

I feel doing content with PuGs is acceptable with the following caveats:

1. You're not hindering the group from collecting their loot by reducing the chest pool
2. I would inform your static of that intent and see their response

I personally don't mind my static members to go out and clear content after our raid week is over but I know some players may find that offensive. Yes, it technically doesn't affect them since you're already doing it past your raid nights but some players take pride in clearing content together as a group for their first time and I would gauge your actions around those nuances of your group.

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Originally Posted by Arlinne

I was wondering about how people felt about the idea of clearing content in your own time, without any drawback to the group? Do you take the side of clearing it all together, or feeling like each person should be fine to continue their own progression, or even a bit of both? Please let me know, I'm eager to know more and see the sides!

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My raid team raids twice a week, on tuesday and thursday. In the raid rules we specifically state to not kill any bosses we plan to fight until we have done both raids, and after that you're free to do as much and any raid content as you like.

One of our tanks frequently does additional raids in party finder after thursdays and it has honestly helped us a lot. Not only does he get gear which made his combat performance even better, he has been able to give us insight to bosses he saw before us or phases of bosses we had not reached yet.

I have to add that his attitude helps. He is a very helpful and perceptive player without an elitist attitude. In the past in another game I saw other players use their additional personal progress as a platform to be rude to others. But that's an attitude issue more than a raid progress issue.

In short, as long as it doesn't hurt the team in any way, I think doing additional raids in your own time is fine.

If you're not hindering the group in any way and you're not breaking any rules that you were informed of and agreed to when you joined, it's none of their business what you do in your spare time.

I've always shaken my head at the chest thing. Loot lockout is fine, but I've never understood the chest reduction just because someone has cleared. The cleared person can't get any of the loot. But the game actively discourages you from helping your friends because just by joining them to help out you will hurt them.

If, for example, your raid group does their raiding on tuesdays, wednesdays, and thursdays, and you cleared on friday? no problem at all. If your group is still in the middle of progging and won't clear that week, no problem then.


But if you cleared on wednesday and you guys were all close to clearing, then you're a bad person.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

One of our tanks frequently does additional raids in party finder after thursdays and it has honestly helped us a lot. Not only does he get gear which made his combat performance even better, he has been able to give us insight to bosses he saw before us or phases of bosses we had not reached yet.

I have to add that his attitude helps. He is a very helpful and perceptive player without an elitist attitude. In the past in another game I saw other players use their additional personal progress as a platform to be rude to others. But that's an attitude issue more than a raid progress issue.
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Oh good to note that. An added concern I had forgot about...

In the past for me... in fact a major reason why I've lacked a "static" in any MMO since 2011... was the results of people who PUGged ahead in poor form.

One fear is people that PUG ahead will abandon the group if they find easy progression elsewhere.

This is a two sided issue: Obviously that person is better served elsewhere... But it also becomes a major issue for smaller statics or statics where some members are still gaining gear or mechanics knowledge...
- Brain and gear drain can kill a group fast.

My old WoW raiding before 2011 kept having that issue. I stayed with them as it was my guild... but everytime I got a new tank 'geared and ready' they'd get poached by a faster progressing guild...

- So FC leadership can "panic" if they see members that look both "able" and "willing" to get poached away... There's no good way to respond to it... because why wouldn't that person jump ship? But if they do... everyone else is hindered, and you can be sure it will become a pattern...

Back in 2010... the more organized 'raider guilds' on my WoW server basically started circling my guild like sharks. They knew we knew how to train raiders... so anyone who hadn't been with us for years, but had been for more than 2 months... started getting whispers and in-game mails...
They'd back off just long enough to let us train a replacement DPS or Tank... and then jump in again... we did finally get past that... but drama between my 'raid lead' and my 'casual lead' is what finally did us in in 2011...

I very much remember the poaching though, and the constant dread we had that people would jump ship as soon as they'd used us to learn fights and get 'ahead' in gear...