Command missions - why not just release all the dungeons?

When I heard command missions were only coming out a few at a time my immediate thought was that they were tuning the AI to work with specific dungeon mechanics, like when doing certain job/story quests with npc’s they will, for example, gather for stack markers and spread out for splash damage.

But so far the squadron just uses generic all purpose AI that is outright broken in some bosses and seems like it could be applied universally to every dungeon that can be undersized.

So why not just release every dungeon for command missions? If the AI isn’t being changed for each instance then what’s the reason to withhold any of them?

I think there's no AI in the quests and them dodging aoes are simply a programming to respond to boss dances. Frankly I noticed this during the SCH quests when the Npcs kept getting in my way with splash markers, which made me question if it was AI or just them programming the boss to behave in a pattern with NPC then responding and creating the illusion of AI.

Ofc I'll be glad if proven wrong

Yeah, its the lack of AI. Each npc must be programmed to attack and dodge. If there's a special boss mechanic the NPCs must be able to do it all. Imagine if the NPCs had no idea to break you out of an instant death mechanic like a Granite Gaol (Titan mechanic) the whole dungeon run would be impossible.

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Originally Posted by Zeromon

Yeah, its the lack of AI. Each npc must be programmed to attack and dodge. If there's a special boss mechanic the NPCs must be able to do it all. Imagine if the NPCs had no idea to break you out of an instant death mechanic like a Granite Gaol (Titan mechanic) the whole dungeon run would be impossible.

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Not only that, some boss attacks targets only players and nothing else, it seems the computer doesn't recognize the presence of the squadron as players or valid targets, which means that in an ipotethical dungeon or trial like titan HM the fight would end after few secs of beign gaoled (Unless you can order them from the gaol)

Even if they're not changing AI, they've still got to thoroughly test to make sure nothing breaks. Running as every job, with every possible combination of squad classes, with varying orders (balanced, defensive, etc).

Didn't they also change how some of the dungeons work when your doing them with your squad? I already know they ignore jail type things. They do it every time the 2nd boss in Bray puts me in that bubble. If anything the squad needs to be taught how to break off from a boss that isn't taking any damage. They can stand in pools of bad but when you have the 2nd and last boss of Halitali types where you have to kill adds in order for it to take damage again they just whack on the boss. I know you can make them attack the propper adds, but in some of the later places that can become hard. I shudder to think about taking them into Pharos where we all know what happens if you try to burn the 1st boss down. Or even Quarn normal or Hard. Would they be effected by doom or be turned into mummies?

I can't think of in any way the dungeons have been edited to work with squadrons. The reason mechanics only target the player is because squadron NPCs are coded as pets. Theoretically the groundwork is already set so long as there isn't a mechanic that needs to be done while you're disabled that isn't as simple as kill something.

That being said, I doubt they'd be able to do any dungeons in Heavensward and beyond. Damage really ramps up, especially since the NPCs don't dodge anything, and the healer AI is absolutely awful.

dmg does ramps up but since they are pets they take less dmg from most aoes anyway

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Originally Posted by Remedi

dmg does ramps up but since they are pets they take less dmg from most aoes anyway

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That damage resistance does not apply to squadron mates. They would absolutely eat the dirt in the Vault.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

When I heard command missions were only coming out a few at a time my immediate thought was that they were tuning the AI to work with specific dungeon mechanics, like when doing certain job/story quests with npc’s they will, for example, gather for stack markers and spread out for splash damage.

But so far the squadron just uses generic all purpose AI that is outright broken in some bosses and seems like it could be applied universally to every dungeon that can be undersized.

So why not just release every dungeon for command missions? If the AI isn’t being changed for each instance then what’s the reason to withhold any of them?

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The game doesnt have true AI, they have a script.

This isn't even considering the enormous amount of testing.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

That damage resistance does not apply to squadron mates. They would absolutely eat the dirt in the Vault.

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They do, they don't get wrecked completely by many aoes, while cleaves still wrecks them, but so fo pets with them

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Originally Posted by Remedi

They do, they don't get wrecked completely by many aoes, while cleaves still wrecks them, but so fo pets with them

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Huh, that's a weird distinction. TIL I guess. I can't imagine why they would put an exception like that.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

I can't think of in any way the dungeons have been edited to work with squadrons. The reason mechanics only target the player is because squadron NPCs are coded as pets. Theoretically the groundwork is already set so long as there isn't a mechanic that needs to be done while you're disabled that isn't as simple as kill something.

That being said, I doubt they'd be able to do any dungeons in Heavensward and beyond. Damage really ramps up, especially since the NPCs don't dodge anything, and the healer AI is absolutely awful.

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I'd love to see the Squadrons being used in the trials, but I'm pretty sure I know how it would go:

- Garuda, doesn't attack the right one, enrage timer is hit, no way to get them to stand behind the rocks.
- Titan (all versions), all immediately fall off, none of them get you out of the gaol, so you die.
- Ifrit, probably the only one you could conceivably do if you can manually have them target things.
- Ramuh, see Ifrit, add fear mechanic
- Shiva, they won't attack the frozen popsicle you get stuck in, so you die.
- King Moggle Mog, NOPE, that ain't happening.
- Greg, NOPE
- Leviathan - unlikely.

As for the dungeons:
Haukke Manor Hard - doable
Halitali Hard - doable
Brayflox Longstop - ugh, probably doable if you don't try to speed run it. Mainly the final boss would result in party KO, as they'd target the bombs if you don't disengage them.
Hullbreaker - I don't see them being able to do the final boss mechanics
Stone Vigil hard - Cuca Fera would not be doable
Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Hard) - Probably doable, might have to play healer
SnowCloak - Doable, though the second boss and final boss have mechanics that might be hard to get the party to stand behind objects
Satasha Hard - Nope, unless you play healer.
The Sunken Temple of Qarn (Hard) - Probably impossible just due to the final boss mechanics, same issue as the Vault's final boss.
The Keeper of the Lake - Doable, though this is rather heal intensive, so I don't see it working with an AI healer.
The Wanderer's Palace (Hard) - Probably doable, but again AI healer would absolutely not know what to do here.
Amdapor Keep (Hard) - AI player would probably suck at the first boss, but I don't see anything that would make it impossible. The final boss might be an issue if you get Suppuration. Mostly I think they would not avoid the spinning scythes.

I think half of these problems could be solved if there was a "stack on my position" button. Everything else requires mechanics awareness, and given how many solo instances during jobs go, the AI tanks and AI healers tend to make no effort to avoid stepping in bad, and have no way to prioritize targets.

With the HW and SB content, there are much more mechanics, and unless the AI players suddenly become aware of those mechanics, I don't see it working.

Like Copperbell was a lot harder than it needed to be, primarily because the AI players ignore the mechanics from the bosses.

Like Square-Enix, here's a suggestion. Allow the players to execute a "playbook" which contains some simple "AI Pet" type of commands.

eg,
"If (boss) casting (skill), move (away/closer/stack on my position)",
"if (I) am casting (skill), move (closer/closer-even-if-AOE-telegraphed)",
"if (list of possible things this boss can cast/environment can cast) do (things the tank/dps/healer AI can do)",
"if (monster spawned) and AI player is (DPS/Tank/Healer)(attack/ignore/stack on tank)"

I know of a game that had this kind of thing, but we're talking about a supplemental rule that overrides the AI rather than acts as the sole instruction.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

Huh, that's a weird distinction. TIL I guess. I can't imagine why they would put an exception like that.

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This has always been an issue for some reason.

Cone/line AoEs frequently ignore the AoE damage reduction that pets are supposed to be subject to with no rhyme or reason to it whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

Huh, that's a weird distinction. TIL I guess. I can't imagine why they would put an exception like that.

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Cleaves are suppose to be something tanks deal with. If pets took their reduced damage on them, there is a risk the pets become better at tanking something than the player tanks. An example is Ramuh EX. Shock strike was miscategorized as a AoE, so people kicked out all the tanks and had a SMN's titan-egi tank it.

For me the hard boss on Stone Vigil Hard would be the 2nd boss where you have to use the cannons. After a point you'd get soo many adds come rushing you I'm not sure you could get past that unless you were on a healer. I don't mind them standing in bad stuff that gets placed on the ground or if the ground turns into a bad. I want more places to take them out in, but Im not sure how that happens unless we get this version is for squad only. Or they get tweaks to their AI or we get a true fall back to me command. Because they shouldn't be trying to hit bosses that go into a no damage taken phase or are like Siren where they become untargetable. They wont break off from those unless you hit disengage. Or you make them go after the adds.

Although, funny thing with Siren (and probably other bosses with Divebomb-type attacks), as long as squad keeps targeting, at least it gives you a bigger queue to watch for where the attack is coming from.

There hasn't been a squadron dungeon yet where mechanics were considered for the "AI". So yeah, they can add more dungeons where they don't need squadron members to execute more complex mechanics. The failed mechanics up to this point don't have an effect on the player or squadrons just don't take enough damage from them to matter.
Many of heavensward and stormblood dungeons have those unique mechanics that are a bit more complex and cant really be ignored all the time, therefor I don't see them adding new dungeons of that lvl range in the near future (could be botting reason too). They can probably add more ARR dungeons, they can sell it as new content, but players probably pick the fastest exp dungeon anyway so it wouldn't really matter that much and would feel like wasted dev time then.

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Originally Posted by Ariane

Cleaves are suppose to be something tanks deal with. If pets took their reduced damage on them, there is a risk the pets become better at tanking something than the player tanks. An example is Ramuh EX. Shock strike was miscategorized as a AoE, so people kicked out all the tanks and had a SMN's titan-egi tank it.

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This makes sense for instant cleaves, but not so much avoidable AoEs.

I've noticed that Oni Yumemi's Head Snatch and Orghana's Epigraph can both instagib pets despite them being telegraphed.