Bards, Eureka and the Archer who lost their voice

This thread is to discuss my thoughts on Bard and the issues I feel it currently has.

Please don’t misunderstand, this isn’t a thread about how the job needs buffs or anything, if anything I feel it’s too powerful for what it does.

Eureka is an area where ‘support oriented’ jobs (at least in XIV’s content) shine, to the point where many of the parties you join will be made up of Red Mages, healers and the occasional Summoner.

Now, as most of us know by now, Eureka can be extremely boring. Unless you’re high level, you spend most of your time afk, able only to contribute through healing / support. You’d think this would make Bard a great job for the area, but because of the way our support works now, all you do is stand around waiting on cooldowns. You can sing Foe Requiem, but you’ll likely die from pulling mobs.

Back when songs were actual songs and not dps cooldowns, as a Bard you could consciously decide whether to sacrifice dps to support the party. Now, with Refresh and Tactician being cooldowns, as well as things like Lucid Dreaming / Thin Air / Manashift / etc making MP management extremely easy, you don’t get to make this choice. The cooldown does. The same applies to Warden’s Paean and Nature’s Minne; you don’t get to decide when you want to use them to support your party, your cooldowns do. Bards playstyle took a pretty weird step backwards from a job that could support the party at the cost of dps, to a high dps, proc-based job with a couple of choice support cooldowns that you could probably forget about and nobody would be any the wiser

Outside of opener much of Bard’s playstyle is standing around waiting for procs and spamming Heavy Shot. This is the perfect time to have players cast buff songs instead of making us use the same boring attack animation over and over and refulgent proc and over and over. The job is described in-game as being distinct from Archers specifically due to their ability to inspire their comrades to greater feats. How does this translate to an almost entirely dps-oriented with passive, infrequent buffs that require no thought to use? Surely having to strike a balance between the ‘bard’ and ‘archer’ aspects of the job would make more sense?

The reason I specifically mention Eureka is that these issues are exacerbated there. Unlike normal content, you might need to use Esuna more than once every 45 seconds. You might pop Refresh, only for the second healer to die, meaning you now have to stand around doing nothing for another 120 seconds until it comes back up. It feels like you’re fighting with your cooldowns, desperately waiting for them to come back up so you can support the party once again (them wait another 120 seconds). Even the standard dps songs (Ballad etc) feel pointless in terms of supporting the party; if the party member is high enough level to attack the mob, they probably don’t need a 3% crit buff to kill it.

Why have ‘Bard’ as a thing if the ‘Bard’ side of the job is constantly being undermined or outright removed. We don’t even have to ‘sing’ our songs anymore, they’re all instant-cast. When people complained about cast times on Bard, I don’t think anyone was complaining about having to cast their songs (considering it had been a thing since 1.X). I get that I’m instantly going to be hit with “well this is XIV not another FF!”. Which I get, but consider this:

Dragoon is released in FFXIV. It comes from the job ‘Berserker’. You wield a club, smack things, and every 120 seconds you do a jump attack, but it doesn’t do very much, so you just set it aside because you might need it one day if something goes very wrong.

Doesn’t sound like much of a Dragoon does it? Honestly, I don’t get why it’s ok for Bard to be moved away so much from its base material but every other job has to be ‘traditional’. Would we be happy if Black Mages were to cast Ruin spells instead of Elemental? Or if a White Mage was more of a dps than a healer? (Oh wait).


Personally I believe that Bard really needs this aspect to return to the job, of actively buffing and supporting the party instead of doing it entirely passively. Songs could have a base MP cost, 1.5 cast like Requiem, and a short duration. Ballad/Paeon/Minuet could give different buffs instead of all giving the same crit buff, and have a slightly higher potency to balance out the cast time if such a thing was needed. This would let the Bards actively decide whether it’s more appropriate to support the party, deal damage, or a mix of both, rather than having to constantly wait for timers to stop ticking before you can do what your job was made for.

As an addendum: I’m well aware that my opinion is solely my own and doesn’t represent the opinion of the community. I understand that Bard is one of - if not the - most popular job, and thus nobody wants it to change. I understand that nobody wants to be a traditional ‘Bard’, they want to be a cool Hunter Ranger with useful party support that gets them into raids easily. But, as one of the extremely few players who always loved the Bard job for what it was in past iterations of FF, it’s painful to see the job I loved becoming so distorted, especially when it’s the only job in the game that still has two diametrically opposes roles thrust onto it (both dps and support), in a game that can barely accommodate the trinity role system, much less the notion of a ‘support’ class

Bard is a premier support role. Its kind of always been. Just, right now, its almost a perfect job in terms of identity.

I'd personally love some QoL stuff here and there for it.
* A trait that upgrades straighter shot to refulgent arrow (I seriously don't know why this isn't a thing)
* A trait that upgrades quick knock to wide volley (keep potency/tp cost, just give the option to AoE from a distance in PvE.)
* A trait to upgrade rain of death to flaming arrow (I miss my flaming pool) T_T

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Bard is a premier support role. Its kind of always been. Just, right now, its almost a perfect job in terms of identity.

I'd personally love some QoL stuff here and there for it.
* A trait that upgrades straighter shot to refulgent arrow (I seriously don't know why this isn't a thing)
* A trait that upgrades quick knock to wide volley (keep potency/tp cost, just give the option to AoE from a distance in PvE.)
* A trait to upgrade rain of death to flaming arrow (I miss my flaming pool) T_T

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Did you read my post? You seem to have misunderstood what I meant. I said that Bards identity and the things that make a ‘Bard’ a ‘Bard’ are heavily undermined by the Archery aspect of the job.
You reply by giving three job changes all related to Archery and haven’t discussed the issues I raised about buffs being entirely passive and barely incorporated with the playstyle.

In the context of FFXIV, Bard is not the premier support role. It isn’t even a support role, as sadly such a thing does not exist in XiV (not enough server power to make them? Or maybe dev team too smal). With the current design of Bard, you are there to dps and your sole function is to deal as much dps as possible. The support is passive to accommodate this and to give the illusion that this is a ‘bard-like’ job. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter how little you use your songs if you can be the top dps. Surely having such a playstyle is already contradictory to the jobs identity? You’re supposed to be a battle hardened Archer who sings in the midst of battle to inspire your comrades, but in practice you’re just an Archer pulling out a harp on an 80 Second cooldown, and even then, that’s literally just to increase your personal dps . Would anyone use those three songs if they just gave a crit buff? You don’t need to consider how to use your support, when to use it, who you should use it on, how much resources it will use, whether the timing is appropriate, whether it’s going to cut into your dps. These are things a well designed support/dps hybrid should be considering, not just placing them on a cooldown so we get used them so little that none of the above ever really applies. What’s the point in a ‘Bard’ that can’t sing when they need to? Surely if they didn’t want support to be the primary function of the role they could’ve just named if after...well,, not a traditional support class.

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Originally Posted by Connor

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Oh yeah, because things have to be a certain way to be something meaningful because reasons.

Bard is no-where near in a bad spot in design. An archer+bard hybrid is great instead of just a singer. And solely seeing the skills they have, regardless of the frequency of their utility, this is including the role skills. Bard can do everything by itself, and help out the party. People didn't play songs when the songs were a trade off. Plenty of stories are shared on sites where you'd have BRDs avoid any of the pre 4.0 songs that weren't a buff because "muh deeps".

Hell, I have plenty of personal anecdotes where being a BRD that played songs pre 4.0 earned me comms in instances because "omg, a bard that plays songs without asking them?"

Under what the dev team would clasify (based on skills) as a "support" role. BRD nails it. It has zero trade-offs to help out anyone on anything, and 100% of the time, its encouraged. They went forward in a way that not playing songs is bad because you don't do things anymore that help you nor the team, instead of "just the team".

I am with you OP. I feel Bard is in a weird spot but also the game has a weird identity crisis. Due to the way the game functions DPS is king so there is no true fit for a true support role. I personally enjoyed having BRD have the healer LB3 but then I am also pleased with the new one as it feels more fitting for the role. Tanks were originally meant to absorb damage but now are pushed to max dps. Healers now only heal when necessary and Support to just push DPS. Foe was really the only song acceptable to sing during HW and ARR unless MP/TP were needed but those were rare circumstances.

If anything to encourage diversity you would need to have encounters that were an endurance test over a DPS race with effects that resulted in creating a diverse group. Enemies that were immune to melee/Ranged/Casting at various times or spawned. Enemies that force tanks to minimize damage received versus popping a cooldown for the one tank buster. Sustained damage that forced healers to heal. But all of this goes against the core of the game but in all reality if we want to bring back job relevance and eliminating a "Meta" we need to bring back things that make jobs classes desired to be included in the group.

You still aren’t understanding what I’m trying to say though.

Making songs actually useable outside of the long cooldowns would make them more meaningful because you can actually use them when you need them, not when the cooldown decides. The entire part of a ‘support’ class is to buff the party; if Bard really is designed to be the premier support class, why are all of its support abilities on long cooldowns? Why is there not a single ability to modify them in any way? Why are there so little of them? Why do they not require resources, or forethough, or timing, or, well anything? Surely a premier support class should be focused on support and not dps procs?

An Archer + Bard hybrid instead of just a ‘singer’ (which is only one aspect of a traditional Bard) is fine when it’s not parading around pretending to be something it’s not . If they called Ranger it whatever then this thread wouldn’t need to exist. But the fact that they’re marketing job as something it’s basically not means it does.

Like I said in my previous post, if Black Mages cast Ruin spells and had a pet, people wouldn’t be very happy if it was marketed as a ‘traditional black mage’ with Black Mage-ish lore behind it. Why should it be different for Bard?

Songs not having a trade off doesn’t make them more worthwhile than before, it just makes them require less thought. In fact, the majority of Bard songs are even less important than pre-4.0; they increase your personal dps, sure, but you press them once every 30 seconds and that’s it. No cast times. No thought required. No resources consumed. No real buffs to the party (unless you count 3% crit which isn’t as much a buff as it is a quirk of dps songs). You’re lucky if you even get to see the animation between all the other oGCD attacks you’re using.
Yes people ignored them pre-4.0, because they were a dps class designed primarily to dps .
It doesn’t matter what kind of support a Bard has, with the current design you either dps as high as possible or you’re flat out bad. Any support is just an added bonus, regardless of how you use it. Sounds a bit backwards when you consider the lore...the job aesthetic...what a traditional FF Bard is...what a traditional D&D Bard is if you want to go that far back.

I agree with you’ve said Winter, the healing LB3 Bards used to have really helped give that extra feeling of ‘supporting’ the party (when you got to use it anyway lol). I also agree that due to content design, there’s very limited scope for anything other than standard dps roles. I feel like this is an overarching issue that’s been gradually poisoning the game, but unfortunately I seem to be mostly alone in that thought

>Foe's Requiem
>Three main songs
>Battle Voice
>Warden's Paean
>Troubadour
>Nature's Minne
>Refresh, Tactician, Palisade (admittedly not exclusive to bard)

Yeah, bard definitely isn't about support. Like they're pretty much only missing a haste and regen to really have all the things short of a rez and I could honestly see one or both of those happening in 5.0.

> three main songs exist almost solely for personal dps, unless you count the crit buff nobody notices. I mentioned this in my original post
> battle voice isn’t a song and hasn’t been mentioned by anyone
> Troubadour is a nice skill and I don’t want to see it removed, but there are so little opportunities to use it in a fight because of the 180s cd. Also, like everything else I mentioned in my original post, you can’t use it when it’s needed because of the cooldown, and it requires no thought. Not to mention the issue of being locked into a song that gives the wrong damage reduction. (E.g in Paeon but need HP increase or in Minuet but needing Physical)

> Foe Requiem works fine because mostly they’ve kept it in its 2.0 incarnation. You can use when you need it and determine things like when is best, how much resources to dedicate to it, when to use it to minimise dps loss, how long you want to use it for, etc

> Paean and Minne are usually on cooldown whenever they’re needed, that’s exactly the issue I mentioned in my post. How does a ‘support’ class buff the party when their support abilities are on cooldown? Paean and Minne are good but that doesn’t mean they should be left as set-and-forget afterthoughts

> Refresh / Tactician / Palisade are role skills and thus aren’t related to what I’m talking about (job identity not meshing with design). If you really to consider them then they do fall into the same category as other abilities; since they have a massive cooldown, you can use them whenever you want without considering anything and that’s it. Back to dps. Just pray that nobody else dies in the 3 minutes they’re on cooldown

Part of why Bard's songs were changed is due to them being penalized for utilizing them. A great many Bards simply didn't want to touch their MP or TP songs and lose 10% of their DPS. That inconsistency contributed to the constant balance issues both Bard and Machinist faced throughout HW until both dumped on the Casters. If Songs were made casts again, they would have to have an activation potency nearly equivalent to Heavy Shot and not have any damage penalty, which makes them exceedingly strong.

Personally, I much prefer Stormblood Bard to Heavensward. The cooldown timers essentially function the say as MP. So I don't really see a need to alter anything.

Well, ultimately the game doesn't have supports. While the old method of using songs (and MCH's turrets) didn't come with hefty cooldowns and there was some thinking involved, there still wasn't really anything else to consider? Except like, using Ballad / Paeon meant less Requiem. Even with those it still feels more like a DPS, and likely it always will. The game simply isn't designed to accommodate support to the degree of Bard in other FF games, without it being either useless or OP. I'd agree that it's a shame about it not feeling more support-y if not for the fact that it does, to me at least, feel like they incorporated traditional BRD elements into its DPS well, without sacrificing too much support. If anything I feel like this is by far the most supportive incarnation of BRD yet...even if it doesn't come in the form of a huge degree of decision making.

Paeon is kinda garbage, but Minuet and Ballad have a kind of rhythmic element to them when you get lots of procs, it feels like there's some of the "musicality" in the dps. Troubadour has a long cooldown, yes, but the mention of being locked into the wrong song you want implies emergency or a panic button. The duration is an entire song's length, if you have the forethought to cast it on the tail end of the song you think would be most useful it can persist and serve a good purpose up to half a minute later (I find Kefka has many points where this works well, using Troub's Minuet just before it ends). To be most effective Minne requires you to pay attention to everyone else, you can use it as tank buster fodder but sometimes it's good on others in a pinch.

I mean I don't really disagree, but at the same time I think it's one of the most cohesive-feeling jobs in 4.X. I love Minuet as a personal DPS thing, Troubadour / Minne etc feel satisfying to use to me, even if there's no sacrifice on my part to do so. I think it's as good as it could be while fitting into the trinity and still feeling support-y. Plus the SB incarnation feels like it emphasised the musical aspect of Bards. You could sing 3 songs before, but you'd never even really notice apart from the brief sound effect on activation and bar buffs (though I do wish there were flute sfx for Minne / Refresh etc). Most support and utility in the game is passive, that's just how they chose to design it. Perhaps in 5.X onwards they could make the support feel more interactive and I guess "meaningful"? But ultimately they're still gonna be a DPS first and foremost, so I don't think the feeling of "Ranger that occasionally gets surrounded by musical notes" will ever fade for those wanting a more pure Bard identity.

I wouldn't be opposed to Refresh / Tactician being like old songs though. But then its position as a role action would have to be re-evaluated, unless MCH also had a cast unrelated to its turrets, as opposed to in HW.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

>Foe's Requiem
>Three main songs
>Battle Voice
>Warden's Paean
>Troubadour
>Nature's Minne
>Refresh, Tactician, Palisade (admittedly not exclusive to bard)

Yeah, bard definitely isn't about support. Like they're pretty much only missing a haste and regen to really have all the things short of a rez and I could honestly see one or both of those happening in 5.0.

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Jesus Christ, can you even comprehend words. He clearly never said anything about current Bard NOT being about support.

ok i dont play bard very often but have dabbled since 2.0.

bard in arr was very much needed in endgame content because of their songs all 3 of them.

the main reason being is that jobs just didnt have the same kind of self sufficiency with regards to tp and mana sustain in long uptime fights. so melee and tanks needed tp and healers would need the mana.

not to mention in both ARR and HW there was still very much a need for both manasong and tp song in dungeon content with lots of aoe not that most bards would use it between pulls if you had a brd in your party.

so even though they had a cast time and a penalty to bards personal dps they were still being used at appropriate times to support the party. usually at times that wouldnt even impact bard dps very much accept for in the previously mentioned long uptime fights. but even then it meant more raid dps because melee and tanks being tp dry was not a good thing.

so with those things in mind brd and mch were always bought into atleast raids because of the support they offered.

part of the problem though was during in ARR and HW people were complaining to much about the penalty aspect of bard and so it became the standard to pretty much not play songs often unless really needed barring foes backed up by battle voice. and even this was still rare in dungeon content.

what this entailed was SE's costant buffing of brd and mch to where they became really good dps jobs with back up support cementing their place in all trials and raids atleast until people were comfortable enough to not need the support or just didnt care and figured ways around it.

this brings us upto SB and SE's newer version of the idea of support and the changes to the cross action skills.

you say cross roles skills dont matter much but in reality they matter just as much as before in the sense they are support only cross roll skills that are better than other jobs equivalents.

also to note the 3% crit buff might seem like its not much but over a full party and a full fight it can add up to quite a bit of dps and could even be a factor in a first kill thats close to enrage. its hard to atribute just how much of the crit hits in a fight were because of it but its definitely a very useful party buff even if the rest of the song aspect is a persoanl dps buff to bards now.

the main reason brd and mch do not feel like support jobs anymore is because SE has changed how jobs can self sustain there own tp and mana and longer downtime in fights means less need for the support skills. not to mention things like stun, bind and silence barely seeing the light of day in content where it would actually matter to have it and this can make the support jobs feel like they dont need the support aspect of their role.

it would take SE changing a far bit about the current design of self sustain and fight encounters to put brd and mch in a place where their support is needed but you have to remember that people are already complaining about the meta comp and how powerful stacking certain jobs is and how it makes them mandatory this would just be compounded if the support aspect was essential too.

the only way you could have the support be a feature of the jobs is to nerf the jobs dps and allow the support skills to be needed again to help party dps and survivability like it was in ARR especially. this would allow for the role identity to come back out which wouldnt be a bad thing but it would have major repurcussions to party comp requirements further pushing other jobs out of harder content or even potentially easier content if the cc skills were needed even in dungeons and EM NM trials.