Unique Ways RDM can utilize it's Manameter

Yeah, RDM can Raise / Cure... but what-if:

-Certain Spells only were accessible via White or Black Meter Gauge, but also cost MP.

Here's my thought:

Haste: Party Wide 10% Increase to Auto Attack / Ability Recast / Spell Speed. Uses 1500 MP / 40 White Mana
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Temper: Party Wide 10% Increase to Direct Hit Rate. Uses 1500 MP / 40 Black Meter
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Regain: Party Wide HP / MP / TP Regeneration. 3500 MP /50/50 White + Black
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Would this be TOO much Utility? Or could this even work in FFXIV's perception of the RDM?

The fundamental idea of making spells that cost white and/or black mana is a good one, but those numbers are really off. 20% is incredibly powerful (Compare with Battle Voice and Battle Litany, both of which raise only one effect and only by 15%) and they'd each need a cooldown, otherwise a correctly-played RDM would spend all their time buffing the party and never get to actually do their melee combo. Costing 40 of one type of mana also makes them tricky to set up without overloading.

so lets face a grp of 4 rdms than... well got it? ;3

The overall idea is pretty cool to chain buffs on mana gauge - but the skillideas are way to powerful... smns also came up with demi-summon ideas like hast/reraise/regain/reflect etc but even if those summons would be locked like bahamut in a several minute time-window (which you also have to build up first) seem kinda overpowered - now imagine those effects on rdm, a cls which isn't locked by any timeframe and multiply it to a 8 man grp... see what would happen than? q.q

Ways to make unique use of its core mechanics so it's not just a game of "can I remember what I cast last?" Ooh, ooh, pick me!
...Or not. Crud, I forced these thoughts out of my head so I could actually level the damn thing without being disappointed.

The few surviving ideas, left in abstract or blueprint form for now:

• Give some sort of general buff to levels of Black and White magic based on actual value and (im)balance between them. Equal amounts give you "Red" mana or 'aspect', whereas being imbalanced towards either end shifts you 'Dark' or 'Light' aspect.
• Give some sort of more transcient, scaling buff to spending Black or White mana.
• Possibly allow for healing to work as a White-magic-specific spender and similarly provide a 'dark' counterpart. Essentially, allow for Black/White/Both spending. Give unique effects to the Both spenders as well, such as Light reducing hit chance by blinding or causing healing to nearby allies while Dark inflicts something like Evasion down (but useful for variable damage bonus even in a post-Accuracy world) or absorbing up to x amount of the target's damage dealt to a cap of y% per attack and a limit of z duration.
• Allow for effects based on balance/imbalance. Perhaps the opposite accelerates the other's cooldowns caused while more of the same increases its power.

The idea should be to increase portions of unique utility and complexity of play without yet having to create an actual elements system and without increasing RDM's optimal throughput any more than is necessary. It's slightly UP atm, but I'd rather see its viability increased in a way that also makes the gameplay more entertaining, such as I would hope would be the draw of such suggestions as those here.

Yeah the buff, FFXIV wise is outrageous lol. Perhaps something along the lines of 5-10% and of course the cooldown having to be substantial. Like 2 minutes.

However, I’d defiantly have the buff last at least 30 sec or even a minute.

Bc RDM is a DPS, so the last thing they’d need is mid boss fight, during a Combo being asked “hey where’s my haste?”

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Originally Posted by PatronasCharm

Yeah the buff, FFXIV wise is outrageous lol. Perhaps something along the lines of 5-10% and of course the cooldown having to be substantial. Like 2 minutes.

However, I’d defiantly have the buff last at least 30 sec or even a minute.

Bc RDM is a DPS, so the last thing they’d need is mid boss fight, during a Combo being asked “hey where’s my haste?”

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I mean, if it were mutually exclusive with, or the two sides of, Embolden, it could be workable, but depending on duration even 5% would be too much for something that you could just keep feeding into a 5-DPS party potentially every 4 casts. Worse, imo, though, it just doesn't synergize with the surrounding toolkit, which doesn't yet allow for use of imbalance and punishes gaps over 30.

I know DoTs have been starting to phase out, but I think Red Mage might really benefit from some sort of DoT or over time effect that acts somewhat like Comfort Zone for the mana gauge. That is, it costs a certain amount to apply but then slowly pays for itself from uptime, allowing you to then engage in melee slightly more often. Perhaps an en-element/saber effect onto their weapon's auto attacks? It would create an interesting dynamic for Red Mage to keep in melee range while the effect is active and timed with Embolden/not Displacement and also give manafication timing some more complexity.

This would be a selfish gain and not necessarily party utility, I suppose. I'm not so sure I like the idea of such strong buffs tied to the mana meter, and also while there's still conflict over Verraise's power.

I do like suggestions though overpowered like some pointed out and i would rather not Red Mage get a mp/tp Regen, that is a Bard or machinist utility, we should be more damage buff focused i think

Should it be considered for Embolden to be effected by the RDM's current mana levels?

The reason I mention it is because Embolden benefits are quite restricted, the RDM gets the perks of increased magic damage but only physical type allies get any kind of bonus from it. I know you could argue that the percentage it increases the damage by is a lot which slowly decreases but compared to something like Litany, Voice or Aetherpact, everyone in the party can benefit from those. So perhaps Emboldens effect could be customised using either Light or Dark Mana that could be useful to everyone depending on the situation.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Should it be considered for Embolden to be effected by the RDM's current mana levels?

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That is a very neat idea. Embolden having an additional effect to party member's determined by the meter.

I just chose Haste / Temper seeing they were fun classic's from previous FF games.

The % numbers may be a bit overboard, but then again it's just a fun post, not fully being realistic. Seeing SE FFXIV is so balance oriented; but the idea I enjoy. RDM was a great enhancing job, why not bring some of that back to its nature.

Thanks for all the replies=)

oh you are the geomancer guy? :P

I really love reading the concept back in the days - thumbs up for that one :3

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Originally Posted by Neela

oh you are the geomancer guy? :P

I really love reading the concept back in the days - thumbs up for that one :3

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Yes... maybe one day we'll see a Geomancer fleshed out in FFXIV's pool of one of the following options of the holy trinity!
It's fun reading those posts I wrote 7 months ago lol, their buried deep in the forums XD

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

I know DoTs have been starting to phase out, but I think Red Mage might really benefit from some sort of DoT or over time effect that acts somewhat like Comfort Zone for the mana gauge. That is, it costs a certain amount to apply but then slowly pays for itself from uptime, allowing you to then engage in melee slightly more often. Perhaps an en-element/saber effect onto their weapon's auto attacks? It would create an interesting dynamic for Red Mage to keep in melee range while the effect is active and timed with Embolden/not Displacement and also give manafication timing some more complexity.

This would be a selfish gain and not necessarily party utility, I suppose. I'm not so sure I like the idea of such strong buffs tied to the mana meter, and also while there's still conflict over Verraise's power.

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I'm generally against DoTs because I'm tired of Final DoT XIV, but a comfort zone like dot like you describe doesn't sound horrible. I like it.

I would prefer if embolden buffs both magic and physical damage personally :o
In it's current state while it is not useless it also does not bring much compaired to other jobs named "support"

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Originally Posted by PatronasCharm

Yeah, RDM can Raise / Cure... but what-if:

-Certain Spells only were accessible via White or Black Meter Gauge, but also cost MP.

Here's my thought:

Haste: Party Wide 20% Increase to Auto Attack / Ability Recast / Spell Speed. Uses 1500 MP / 40 White Mana
-
Temper: Party Wide 20% Increase to Direct Hit Rate and Critical Hit Rate. Uses 1500 MP / 40 Black Meter
-
Regain: Party Wide HP / MP / TP Regeneration. 3500 MP / 60/60 White + Black
-
Would this be TOO much Utility? Or could this even work in FFXIV's perception of the RDM?

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I want those... On WHM. And not with those numbers (it will hit HARD the healer balance). With temper, the WHM can have an equivalent of SCH's Chain Stratagem and with Regain the equivalent of BRD's Refresh.

And the haste effect could also add improved movement speed (such as Peloton does), to feel faster.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Should it be considered for Embolden to be effected by the RDM's current mana levels?

The reason I mention it is because Embolden benefits are quite restricted, the RDM gets the perks of increased magic damage but only physical type allies get any kind of bonus from it.

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Wouldn't this make it even more restrictive, though. While you'd be forced finally to prioritize your own burst over your party's, I imagine it'd only be an rDPS nerf, as it'd have to be balanced around its greatest theoretical benefits, yet would rarely be able to reach those circumstances.

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I know you could argue that the percentage it increases the damage by is a lot which slowly decreases but compared to something like Litany, Voice or Aetherpact, everyone in the party can benefit from those. So perhaps Emboldens effect could be customised using either Light or Dark Mana that could be useful to everyone depending on the situation.

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This part would be nice, though. I'd love to have situationally- and macrorotationally-dependent optimal choices, each closely competitive over time, for how to deploy my Embolden.

The idea would work actually (with appropriate balancing of numbers). It tasks the RDM to choose between personal damage (melee combo) or raid-wide buffs.

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Originally Posted by aldoteng

The idea would work actually (with appropriate balancing of numbers). It tasks the RDM to choose between personal damage (melee combo) or raid-wide buffs.

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But if, as per the usual, rDPS favors the raid-wide buffs over your personal melee combo (and if it does not in an 8-man setting, it never will unless you're suffering from rez penalty), your sword will never be used again.

I felt like mana spenders would be the ideal way to go with RDM, something simple like this:
Verblizzard - 175 potency. 4.5s cast time. Potency doubled if White Mana is above 45. Costs 10 White Mana and gives 5 Black Mana
Verwater - 175 potency. 4.5s cast time. Potency doubled if Black Mana is above 45. Costs 10 Black Mana and gives 5 White Mana

These skills would also cost no mp, which would help with RDM's mana issues and fit the flavor that these elements offer to White/Black Magic respectively. The numbers are also balanced so that you want to use them whenever you can, except when you have Manafication available. I'm in favor of lowering Manafication's cooldown while removing the reset on Corps-a-corps/Displacement and re-balancing their cooldowns to further facilitate this.

RDM doesn't need a DoT, but if it got one, making it work off of the Impact Proc would be the best option. Perhaps as a long GCD spell to make it easy to fit into the rotation? It would make sense to have the manapadding effect on it in that case, but you could accomplish the mana padding effect by simply converting it into a cooldown based buff instead, and that way it'd work with Scatter's AoE, as boring as it is.

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Originally Posted by PatronasCharm

Yeah, RDM can Raise / Cure... but what-if:

-Certain Spells only were accessible via White or Black Meter Gauge, but also cost MP.

Here's my thought:

Haste: Party Wide 20% Increase to Auto Attack / Ability Recast / Spell Speed. Uses 1500 MP / 40 White Mana
-
Temper: Party Wide 20% Increase to Direct Hit Rate and Critical Hit Rate. Uses 1500 MP / 40 Black Meter
-
Regain: Party Wide HP / MP / TP Regeneration. 3500 MP / 60/60 White + Black
-
Would this be TOO much Utility? Or could this even work in FFXIV's perception of the RDM?

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I'd be ok with this if RDM's lost their ability to rez with Dual cast. While it's great to have those raises, I think that sorta limits them on what else people are OK with them doing. To some, their rez's are invaluable, but literally only maybe week 1 or 2 of progression, not for raid clears. Then their utility wouldn't be in that "Gray area" since the utility of the raises is VERy situational and would allow them to be more useful on the norm.MOST people over value RDM's raises worth in normal raid progression and think because of it, it never needs any buff or any utility. At the very least, make it to where instead of dual cast using raise, make acceleration raise in some way. secondary swift cast for it (as in once you cast verthunder, you get a 100% chance at verfire, but you can also instant cast verraise. if you use it on verraise, you can't use it on Verfire) Would make it to where verraise isn't AS on demand or easily available but still give them another way to raise and makes you think about it more or let the healer do it. Idk just a theory.

I think the numbers are far too high with your numbers. I'm not sure about it costing so much mana and losing out on your main burst phase. especially with Regain. It would probably be better to bring a bard in some of those regards considering you'd lose out on some of your best damage to give a HP/MP/TP regen. Though, if so I think it would be better to axe the HP part and just make it a MP/TP. you don't need that extra aggro from a heal. Wouldn't be great considering RDM's major weakness atm is it's "the class you may hit enrage with" by normal players. Does that mean they all have bad dps? no. but it's low enough for people to question it.

Also, I sorta liked your GEO class Idea TBH, I think they should wait a bit on GEO as much as I want it because I think it would be a great class, but the outcry for having a new tank/healer is pretty high and I definitely don't think GEO should be anything but a DPS. It's never been one, it's always been a debuff/buff/dps class. Also, people saying "BUT THE AST STORY LINE MENTIONS THEM" doesn't mean they have to be Healer, just means they draw their power in the same way AST's do from a different star close to theirs. Would be kinda weird making two classes linked together being the same thing. Like SMN and SCH. Came from the same base, but are Healer/DPS.

Verraise as a utility skill is definitely overrated. Sure the red mage can dualcast raise a few party members, but then what? The red mage is then out of mana and can't DPS, and if that many people died in a raid setting, you're probably not passing enrage anyway. So for what it brings to the table (comparing it to summoner) it really either needs more utility to make up for its lower damage, or a damage buff, or both.

I like the idea of using up the black and white mana gauge for utility effects on paper, but my only worry there is that doing so will even further lower the personal DPS of a red mage since you won't be able to utility your melee combo or cast verflare/verholy as often. Seems like adding in the abilities will either require a higher ceiling to be placed onto the mana gauge or some other major overhaul to how the job plays.

Basically you want RDM to be RDM, you have my vote, although it needs to be toned down in the numbers but good concept overall.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

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Yeah this is really true. Outside of progression RDM isn't the pick for utility any more, yeah Embolden is great but as mentioned it's quite restricted. SMN is great for Rez too but at least outside of that they have other great party buffs, and those lovely dots for constant damage.

While I like the idea, I think it would significantly hurt RDM's dps. It is effectively delaying the combo by 3-4 GCD's which is a 1500 potency combo. With RDM's already low on the DPS charts I don't know if this would be a good idea. Unless while under Temper/Haste bonus mana is awarded.

Thanks for all the replies btw! Wish I could reply to all individually.
-It would hurt the DPS somewhat, my vision for these AoE Buffs would last at least 30 s ~ 1 min. Wouldn't be worth it if you had to pop it every 10 sec. that would seriously put a damper on DPS. He's not an AST.

-But it's a risk and reward. You're sacrificing a cast of DPS (which you already DO when raising or having to cure anyone) to give a slight boost to your party members.

The Regain is sort of designed as a help during any sort of huge encounter, that could save the party from a wipe, which again is a sacrifice to DPS, but so is Raising and Curing.

Liked the Idea where Haste could potentially also grant a movement speed, seeing that auto attack is pointless in this game.

Thanks again guys! Look forward to seeing the future of RDM

I like the 3 effects you proposed : RDM would have tremendous utility.

However I would see it another way :
- Long cooldowns (120 sec) on those skills
- duration 30 seconds and power decreasing like embolden (starting 15% and losing 3% every two ticks (6sec), btw I would also put embolden on that regime)
- The mana requirement becomes only threshold, not a cost anymore. Like your last skill you can only use it IF your mana is 40 / 40. So it would be a combination of both CD and mana threshold to be used. And you could use it 1 out of two times the mana conditions are met, kinda like manafication actually.
BUT, with these conditions of not spending the mana, you meet all three conditions quite quickly within each other. So I would also make a change so you can't all stack it, it becomes : one skill requires a difference in white mana equal or greater than 30 (yes, do something a little wrong on purpose but repaired after a GCD), one is the opposite, and one is equal mana levels at 40 / 40. So obviously the first two skills would be easier to use after a finisher, while the last one would be used before a manafication. Would help bards with foe in openers :D


I think RDM would then finally have the real utility (not only in prog) to justify having one of the lowest personnal DPS.

I thought of another way to implement Chainspell that would increase RDM's DPS:

Chainspell - Ability - 90s CD: Reduces weaponskill cast time and recast time, spell cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay by 50%, reduces damage by 40%, and require no cast time for 10s. Effect is lost if you use a weaponskill.

This is an overall gain by itself if you look at the math: (1 - 40% damage reduction) /( 1 - 50% cast time) = 60/50 = 1.2 for a 20% damage increase.

This also acts as a massive mana generator as well. You can alternate between Veraero/thunder for the duration and get 8-9 casts in for 44 black/white mana very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I thought of another way to implement Chainspell that would increase RDM's DPS:

Chainspell - Ability - 90s CD: Reduces weaponskill cast time and recast time, spell cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay by 50%, reduces damage by 40%, and require no cast time for 10s. Effect is lost if you use a weaponskill..

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That seems fun! I really like that idea. I know in my 5.0 wishlist I asked for a Chainspell but it was along the lines of a double to triple dualcast effect where you can instant cast twice guaranteed and a 25% chance to grant a triple dualcast.

Bringing homage to ffxi’s amazing Chainspell 2 hour lol.

RDM should get a little ground AoE puddle like a Shadow Flare. Would really help our AoE damage too. Could make it cost 20/20 mana and give it that green/blue fire puddle effect

Would be cool to have a DoT to keep on a Weaponskill that cost gauge. Would help to line melee combos on party buffs better too. Fun stuff.

Or what about En(spell) and (Spell) Spikes instead of a straight damage buff. If RDM's could put out EnBlizzard party wide that would also be an alternative which would be a potency and or damage buff of some kind. Spikes could be cool depending on how it was implemented.