Crime in Eorzea

Now, all the recent hubbub about how terrible the Garlean Empire tends to be has got me thinking, what about Eorzea?

Well, more specifically, what is and isn't criminal relative to the real world. We don't know a whole lot about Eorzean law, per sé, but details can be gleaned if you pay close enough attention.

Prostitution seems to be socially accepted. The dancers in Ul'dah are certainly not getting by just on dancing, courtesans are in Gegejuru's employ, there are a pair of prostitutes in Ala Ghiri, and so on. Brothels were also seemingly a fixture in Doma, and they remain active in Kugane (and likely the wider Hingan nation).

Other than that, and natural problems that arise from the Gridanians not really making their own laws, I can't really think of any major differences between modern values and those expressed in Eorzea?

Things treated as criminal in the real world are also typically criminal in Eorzea, regardless of whether or not people get away with it. Murder, rape, extortion, theft, embezzlement, assault, human trafficking, poaching, etc. Justice usually boils down to execution in self-defense, but that's only what we (as player characters and as players) see - there has to be a justice system in place, non?

Now, when it comes to wartime conduct, it has been argued that the characters and nations in the story don't need to adhere to any code of conduct and, indeed, don't have one. However, this is clearly not the case. Eorzea takes POWs, and as far as we are shown, treats them with dignity and respect, even going so far as to heal and protect them from lynch mobs. Not all enemy soldiers can be saved, but the Eorzeans clearly put some effort into doing so. In the wake of Specula Imperatoris, a soldier also mentions Zenos breaking whatever rules of war could be said to exist, further lending credence to the idea.

However, the Immortal Flames at least are willing to use torture to extract information if necessary.

In regards to the beast tribes, the Eorzeans are very clearly willing to coexist and live alongside them whenever possible. Prior to Silvertear they were on rather friendly terms with most if not all of the beast tribes, even if the latter did still live mostly in their own enclaves and not the major cities. Midgardsormr's presence wasn't the only thing keeping summoning rates down - primals were controlled passively through trading for the beastmen's crystals, a practice that declined in the wake of Silvertear. While the Eorzeans may disagree with beastman religion, they do allow it to be practiced - even the tempered are left alone, albeit oftentimes with a vigil, as long as they do not summon their primal. The Warrior of Light's activities, as well as the activities of others in the beast tribe quests, also clearly demonstrate that the Eorzeans at least wish to reconcile... whether it's out of genuine goodwill or pure practicality is beside the point.

The only instance we have of Eorzean aggression against the beast tribes is the Limsans breaking their land treaty with the kobolds, and even in-universe the incivility of that is called out. (The sahagin are actually the aggressors in their feud with the Limsans, having sacked Halfstone in the wake of the Calamity and taken the surrounding territory for their spawning grounds.)

There is a bit of racism and xenophobia, but it is portrayed as a bad thing, not socially accepted or normal. It isn't punished, but nothing good comes of it in context, and those who indulge in this behavior are not portrayed sympathetically.

So... what crimes in the real world are treated as socially acceptable in the Eorzea of 4.2 (and Doma too, I guess)? How are criminals tried when the Warrior of Light doesn't execute them in self-defense (or as a vigilante)? Thoughts? Opinions?

Human trafficking and slavery appears to be zigzagged as to it's legal standing/criminality in Eorzea. It's mentioned as being illegal in Limsa Lominsa, but as the ACN class quests showed, it doesn't stop pirate groups thumbing their noses at Limsa law and enslaving innocents. In Ul'dah it appears to be at the very least accepted if not legal - especially for debt delinquency, it is especially common in Ul'dah for debtors to sell themselves into slavery instead of paying their debts.

Horrifyingly, this also includes selling your children instead of yourself into slavery (this is what happened to Pipin, his father sold him into slavery to cover his own debts, not to mention this appears to be the impending fate of that child in the lobby of the Gold Saucer who is complaining about his father forcing him to "work in the silver mines" to cover his debts). The Colosseum is especially a common destination for those lowered to debt-bondage to end up, as indebted gladiators (Pipin and Raubahn were both enslaved fighters there - Raubahn earned so much money that he bought not only his freedom but Pipin's as well). This does explain how Ul'dah has seemingly recovered so quickly from the destruction caused to the city by the Calamity, they did so on the backs of indebted workers.

As for Gridania, as they are bound by the will of the elementals, there is a very tight leash around the necks of everyone in the city as to what they can and can't do. Gridanians have to be mindful of their actions impacting the ecology of the forest and so minor acts we would consider trivial (like vandalism of a tree), is effectively a capital crime in Gridania. Poaching especially is treated very harshly. It does earn Gridania a not entirely undeserved reputation for being stubbornly pragmatic though, to the point of being cold and heartless at times.

And Ishgard was until the end of the Dragonsong War a theocratic state ruled by the Church of Halone, so Ishgardian Law was theocratic law, hence, crimes that were in violation of the teachings of the Church of Halone carried with it steep, even draconian, penalties. Being even suspected of involvement with dragons earned you either a one-way ticket to Witchdrop where you were literally thrown off a cliff to your certain death (the reasoning was if you were innocent you would die an innocent and be accepted into Halone's Halls, but if you were a heretic you would turn into a dragon to save yourself which would be death due to the archers who would quickly shoot you down), or, if you were lucky (or unlucky depending on your point of view), you could plead to the Tribunal for a Trial by Combat, which, due to facing the Heavensward usually, normally resulted in death for the accused anyway. So Ishgard was probably the most extreme as far law went, although with the end of the theocracy, the establishment of the democratic parliamentary republic Aymeric established to replace it, and the resulting separation of church and state, there is a softening of Ishgard's law system (this was a plot point of the HW Hildibrand quests - Cyr's antics were partially because the Tribunal was regarded as mostly obsolete and thus had little purpose anymore).

As far as prisons go, every (functioning) city state in Eorzea has their own gaol system - Limsa Lominsa has cells underneath the Coral Tower (the headquarters of the Knights of the Barracuda), where as Ul'dah has the Mahjaraja (sp?) Pit (where Raubahn was incarcerated for the first half of HW). Gridania formerly used the old Gelmorran structures Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak and the Spirithold as gaols, but apparently constructed "a new prison facility" to replace them. Ishgard has both cells at Whitebrim Front and within the Vault for their prisoners (Whitebrim's dungeon has heretics inside which you can even speak to, and the Vault was where Aymeric was imprisoned after rebelling against Thordan). Justice seems to be arbitrary though - only Ishgard is shown to have an actual court system in place, but that does not mean the other cities do not.

Ironically Limsa's probably the most Beast Tribe-friendly city in that you'll see actual Beast Tribe NPCs peacefully hanging out there conducting business. The worst is actually Ul Dah since any Beast Tribe found within their walls is killed on sight by law, something which causes you issues in the 2.0 Alliance quest-line.

Regarding Law in Limsa Lominsa - the pirates seem to regard it as more of a suggestion than anything. The Yellowjackets do what they can to keep order in the various settlements but as long as no one breaks The Code, no one seems to care. On the other hand, should the code be broken, you've earned yourself a visit from the Rogue's Guild. Those don't end well for the one breaking the code.

If we ever did get a little more detailed lore, I'd guess it would be pretty similar to English Common Law. With some obvious additions re: rules regarding elementals, forbidden magicks, the usual fantasy stuff.

TBH though, I was a bit surprised Laurentius got off so easy. I would have thought that his original crime was an executable offense.

Well, I did forget the presence of debt slavery in Ul'dah, as well as privateering being legal in Limsa. Note that piracy itself is technically illegal, hence the need for the Kraken's Arms pirates and the protagonists to refer to their... particular profession as "spice trading."

Regardless of whether or not people get away with it, beyond Ul'dahn debt slavery human trafficking is still illegal in Eorzea as far as we know. People get away with it in real life as well, regardless of legality or morality, and those who are caught are punished, like in real life. (Doesmaga is heavily implied to be involved in slave trade, and was exiled from Limsa for it; the SAM 52 quest involves stopping human traffickers, including a corrupt Brass Blade, and so on.) I'm just inclined to argue that crime, as we would see it, seems common in Eorzea because of how the Warrior of Light frequently deals with criminals as a part of their profession. The cities, at least, seem pretty lawful and secure, even if corruption runs rampant in Ul'dah.

Both Gridania and Ishgard are very disciplined, of course, for their own reasons, though I suspect Ishgard may get a bit more lax now that people aren't being arrested for heresy with the end of the theocracy.

While there are some practices we've left behind in the real world - debt slavery and privateering - Eorzea's not too bad, in the cities at least.

Can't account for the borderline transparent corruption in Ul'dah, though...

Let's also not forget Sastasha is clearly a base for human trafficking and the ACN quests heavily imply that our companion was once a slave on a pirate ship.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Can't account for the borderline transparent corruption in Ul'dah, though...

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Nothing borderline about Ul'dah's corruption. Anyone not staring at their own two feet knows that the Syndicate runs the city.

In regards to Sastasha, yes it is a criminal operation but I guess the Maelstrom doesn't have the resources to clean it out; they subcontract the task to the Warrior of Light through the Adventurer's Guild, but evidently do want something done about it.

The ACN companion (K'lyhia) was "held prisoner" by Doesmaga, who I mentioned by name. He was exiled for being involved in the slave trade.

While the Syndicate does run Ul'dah, that's... not unlawful. Unfortunately. The Ul'dahn government is bicameral, consisting of the Sultanate and the Syndicate; the Syndicate is plutocratic, and while that's not bad in and of itself what makes it bad is the fact the Syndicate only uses its power to enrich its own interests (i.e. only passing legislation that benefits them). That breeds corruption, which is what the real problem of Ul'dah is. (I compare the US unfavorably to Ul'dah.)

Since it's relevant to the discussion, I urge everybody here to do the bonus quest associated with this year's Little Ladies Day. It pulls no punches at showing the darker side of Eorzea - specifically Ul'dah.

It's also Ul'dah as it was several decades ago before the 7th Umbral Calamity. It's specifically mentioned that things have gotten safer since then.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

It's also Ul'dah as it was several decades ago before the 7th Umbral Calamity. It's specifically mentioned that things have gotten safer since then.

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Which, I suppose, isn't saying much given that one of the early RDM quests involves intervening to prevent yet more sex trafficking. Ul'dah, much like Ishgard, is also still hiding the truth about its founding and the destruction of Sil'dih. That Nanamo has not made it public knowledge (unless I'm missing a statement to the contrary) is very troubling. I'm sure a lot of people here are deeply concerned about the cultural erasure and rewriting of history surrounding Sil'dih, given that they express disdain whenever Garlemald does anything similar.

Human trafficking is, unfortunately, a crime that still occurs in the real world, even in first-world countries. The prevalence of these crimes is what's pertinent, not their occurrence; furthermore, not only is it established that human trafficking is illegal in Ul'dah (beyond debtors being enslaved into gladiator combat), but criminals using Little Ladies' Day to carry out that crime has been reduced significantly by hiring more Royal Seneschals.

Ul'dah rewriting history in its favor is not surprising; however, it's not established that Nanamo is aware of that fact. As far as we know, only the people from the Hildibrand quests are aware, though I wouldn't be surprised if she did know and didn't let the truth out anyway. I would urge her to do so, though unfortunately what's done is done.

What about the droid attack on the wookiees?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

-snip-

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I believe it was stated during the quest that she was the one who chose to keep it hidden, though it's been quite some time since I forced myself to stomach the Hildibrand quest chain. Perhaps someone who has done it recently can weigh in?

Combing through the dialogue...

It's not made clear whether or not Nanamo is aware of the truth. However, Phillice (the Sultansworn historian who is tied with the Sil'dihn elements of the quests) renounces her position due to the lie, and Godbert vows to make sure the truth is let out.

No further information on the subject is available. It can be safely assumed that Nanamo is aware of the truth through Godbert, but whether or not he has been successful in letting the truth out (and whether or not Nanamo has tried to suppress it) is unknown.

It could be something that will come out in a later quest, givin the whole "time bubble" thing. The fate of Sil'duh ultimately doesn't have anything to do with the MSQ, and thus is something that will only come up again when SE feels like it.

Keep in mind that the Ul'dah/Sil'dih conflict happened 400 years ago. Proving anything beyond word of mouth isn't exactly easy.

Nanamo has nothing to do with keeping the truth of the Ul'dah/Sil'dih conflict from the people. I doubt she even knows what really happened; she doesn't even appear in the quest line. The people who are keeping the truth under lock and key are a group of Sultansworn that formed a secret society called the Arbiters of Truth when Sil'dih fell. They think they are keeping Sil'dah propaganda from reaching the Ul'dah public of course... The other people who know are the decedents of Sil'dihn aristocracy who have been passing down stories by word of mouth.

Except, the reaction of the Sil'dihn decedents to finding out this is to drown Ul'dah in zombie-making power. They aren't interested in letting the Ul'dahns know what really happened; they want revenge. So they're pretty much pulling a Nidhogg on the whole thing...

The person who does know about it at the end of the quest is Godbert Manderville. And he says that he's going to make sure Ul'dah does find out about what really happened in the Ul'dah/Sil'dah war. Which honestly has a way better chance of working then anything Nanamo would try to be honest.

Edit: Ninja'd