Ending Cookie Cutter Builds

So I know that opinions vary on how close this game is coming to becoming XI-2, and there are also varying opinions on if that is a good thing or not.

However, I think XI came across something in the later part of its life that could completely destroy standard things like the 5+ ARC setups we see at moogle fights currently.

That thing is the stagger system. Not a direct port of it, but a variation (eg, the mob becomes invincible until a certain ability is used, which is randomly selected from one of the seven basic classes) could vastly increase the balance of some (It would be stupid to use this system for every fight in the game) future endgame content.

Seeing as there are 8 slots in a party, and 7 combat classes, I don't see no reason why all of the content in this game cant be done with one of each class in the party, I currently believe that for a skilled enough group of players it is possible, but of course it is the player-base's choice to run the builds they do. I think that for the battle devs, it might be a nice idea to occasionally not give them that choice.

As for when the number of classes exceeds 8, the random ability list for a battlefield could be restricted to one or two of the jobs that are favoured less by that battle. (E.g. Howling fist required for the final blow on Ifrit - not a serious suggestion, but an example of how things could work)

Kind of a nice idea but it shouldn't be like that. What would be better is further implementation of the incap system they almost completely ignore. If you had actually visible effects from incaps then you'd see people on different jobs more.

So you want to end a cookie cutter build by making a cookie cutter build?

What i mean by this is every setup will be mrd gld thm pgl arc lnc cnjx 2

Amy: Yes the Incap system is really nice, my only worry is the fact that incapacitation triggers tend to be shared between multiple jobs, but I would love to see these play a larger role. Oh, and nice sig btw xD

Xia:
It is a fair point that this may lead to just more cookie cutter builds, however there are two things I should say. Firstly it was supposed to be variable - not just the build you specified, as with the pgl and Ifrit example, that would simply be forcing in one class that is less used, the idea I had in mind would make the requirements unique to each battlefield.

Secondly I guess my main aim here wasn't to remove optimal party set-ups, that is pretty much impossible due to the very nature of...well, ordering things. My idea here was more to impose constraints on them to give the path of least resistance a little more resistance. (I guess in that respect I didn't choose the thread title too well, I would change it if I could =/) Plus it would be nice to see even a minimal increase in the variation of classes in battlefield parties.

It really comes down to a choice. Do you want balance or Uniqueness. If every job can do the job the same with little to no difference besides the weapon. There is no uniqueness. At the same time if you make some jobs better at this then the others. there is no balance. Point being You either want balance or uniqueness. Really can't have both when you put in a lot of jobs with the same basic Idea. (the more DD you put in the game the more unbalanced the game will become.)

I think things are going to change with jobs. People are going to want certain classes/jobs for what they can do.

Or i hope it changes... lol

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

It really comes down to a choice. Do you want balance or Uniqueness. If every job can do the job the same with little to no difference besides the weapon. There is no uniqueness. At the same time if you make some jobs better at this then the others. there is no balance. Point being You either want balance or uniqueness. Really can't have both when you put in a lot of jobs with the same basic Idea. (the more DD you put in the game the more unbalanced the game will become.)

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Everquest Online Adventures for the PS2 had class uniqueness, and there classes all brought something to the table. No class was ever left out of events. They did something right, and more MMO developers should look at what they have done to make classes like that.

Intriguing thought. It would definitely be interesting to see SE implement a system that forced players to have a more mixed PT setup.

I agree with your statement about how things are doable with a setup of just about every class available currently, the problem is that it isn't efficient enough to risk losing. People have a hard enough time getting the drops that they want in the current end-game content that they are less inclined to mix it up. It's all about using the easiest classes to play in Ifrit and Moogle to insure the win. Unless you roll with a regular static group that are good enough to try different set ups and there are a lot of people that do.

I'm not going to complain about how it is now though because to be honest, I don't really care how many ARCs or THMs I have in a PT. Since 1.20 I've played every one of my classes(except LNC) nearly equally in all the end-game content. As long as they keep balance among classes I will play all of them where I can, whenever I can. It would be interesting to see if SE does something about class stacking, but either way I'm good.

What I always envisioned as a good idea to promote diverse parties without outright enforcing it (which would not go so well) would be to have the drop rate for rewards on repeatable quests like Ifrit/Moogle increase if there is one of every DoW/DoM in the group of 8. Similar to the "everyone from the same Grand Company gets more EXP/Seals" idea, but with drop rates instead of EXP (or both, even). It doesn't have to be a huge increase, but enough to give people that temptation to try it. It'd be fairly simple to implement and non-intrusive for people that want to keep on doing 6 THMs or whatever it is this month.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MeeYow

So I know that opinions vary on how close this game is coming to becoming XI-2, and there are also varying opinions on if that is a good thing or not.

However, I think XI came across something in the later part of its life that could completely destroy standard things like the 5+ ARC setups we see at moogle fights currently.

That thing is the stagger system. Not a direct port of it, but a variation (eg, the mob becomes invincible until a certain ability is used, which is randomly selected from one of the seven basic classes) could vastly increase the balance of some (It would be stupid to use this system for every fight in the game) future endgame content.

Seeing as there are 8 slots in a party, and 7 combat classes, I don't see no reason why all of the content in this game cant be done with one of each class in the party, I currently believe that for a skilled enough group of players it is possible, but of course it is the player-base's choice to run the builds they do. I think that for the battle devs, it might be a nice idea to occasionally not give them that choice.

As for when the number of classes exceeds 8, the random ability list for a battlefield could be restricted to one or two of the jobs that are favoured less by that battle. (E.g. Howling fist required for the final blow on Ifrit - not a serious suggestion, but an example of how things could work)

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Bad idea mate. Basically then you are forcing the cookie cutter (lets make them need all classes). Things are fine as is. Moogle and Ifrit can be done with any job so long as the people are compitent. My ls has done moogle with every class not just the cookie cutter all arcs. We have done Ifrit with out any thms or lancers. Yes they make the fight harder but they can all be done. (p.s. I hated the stagger system from abyssia and well abyssea in general)

Well...SE could be really ... sneaky like...

They could make the stats and tactics of all NM fights changes randomly >.>

Today a THM setup for Ifrit works fine, but next time you go in... might be immune to magic but weak to melee.

Moogle might be great with archers.. but next time you go in, might resist piercing but weak to thunder.


Maybe Iffy will dance differently the next fight again.. no 'safe spot' to stand on.

This could even be extended to XP mobs... Hanging out with the wolves at Nathalan (sp?) may sound fun.. but what if different mobs started popping there to replace the wolves...

Throw a bit of randomization (rather than always making target types and strats the same) and you can abolish the 'need' for a cookiee-cutter group.

One could argue the new cookiee-cutter group is 'one of everything', but then we might be extending the definition of 'cookiee-cutter' too much and implying it means 'as varied as possible'.

Besides, whose to say 1 of everything will be better against Ifrit this time around (due to mob randomization) rather than 8 CNJs and Iffy suddenly weak to Cure O.o!

All the stagger system needs in XI is a war, sam, blu and blm. Outside if that it's just a tank and DDs and a healer -- in Aby a single healer with the proper atmas suffices.

Its quite simple really give each dd a specific buff/debuff that impacts the fight significantly. That way you would need balanced parties. If that's too militant then use skill chains to facilitate the need for multiple classes without being too strict. Ie you need at least 4/6 different classes to perform big damage sc's. The latter I think could work well if implemented correctly.