Pain Points of DRK

I’ve been leveling up all three tanks through the 60’s in tandem, and I have come to agree with the general consensus that DRK just doesn’t feel as good to use as PLD and WAR, so I wanted to throw my feedback out there. Rather than making suggestions for changes, I am going to focus on the pain points, not solutions, since I know nothing of game design.

Soul Eater is an awesome ability that feels miserable to use outside of Grit due to losing the drain, as is often necessary for DPS reasons. Also, I can definitely sense the difference in sustain compared to PLD and WAR as well, which primarily occurs when I’m either tanking a boss outside of tank stance, or just running around doing solo nonsense like FATEs. The latter is the bigger deal to me, as I feel substantially squishier as DRK compared to PLD and WAR when doing those basic things due to not wanting to trade off 20% of my ongoing DPS to get access to my main sustain tool, something unnecessary with the other tanks. (cont.)

Delirium being the first Blood spending ability feels bad. It’s on a long cooldown, so I’m constantly flooded with Blood and have no way of using it, which is a terrible introduction to the resource and makes Delirium feel like any other 80s cooldown. It doesn’t feel much different, even after getting Quietus, as it’s just not readily applicable to enough situations. Compared to PLD and WAR, PLD has access to the serviceable Sheltron early on for gauge throughput, and WAR has the fantastic Fell Cleave/Inner Beast.

Dark Passenger and Another Victim both seem to apply to very narrow and rare situations, and don’t feel like they have much payoff compared to the effort of working in such obscure abilities. As such, I barely ever use these abilities, and generally find it never feels rewarding when I do.

(cont.)

Blood Weapon feels great, and I want to use it all the time, but find it frustrating I can’t when I’m in Grit. In comparison, Blood Price feels anemic (no pun intended) and only ever feels worth it when I’m pulling large packs in dungeons. The net result is I find myself without an appreciable blood buff much of the time when I’m in Grit.

The Unmend proc that makes the next Unleash take no MP feels random, and I’ve never really noticed it or felt glad it was there. Maybe I’m doing something strange with my playstyle so I’m missing something, but I can’t make sense of how there’s meaningful synergy here, and the whole thing seems like insubstantial filler.

(cont.)

It feels necessary to use Dark Arts with Power Slash to build enmity, but it feels bad to burn a Dark Arts without getting a damage payoff. If I don’t use Dark Arts with Power Slash, I lose enmity much more quickly after switching to my DPS combo compared to PLD and WAR, which makes Power Slash seem like it requires a substantial resource investment to get the same benefit that WAR and PLD get for free. I recognize one piece of a kit like this doesn’t get balanced in a vacuum, but it’s not obvious to me where this is made up for in the rest of DRK’s kit. Again, I’m open to missing something here, but it makes Dark Arts feel like a crutch rather than a sweet buff.

I don’t want this to be taken as my thinking DRK is generally miserable, as I actually enjoy the quirk of using Dark Arts to lump my oGCD damage into my GCD’s for bigger numbers, and I find the aesthetic themes and job quests really enjoyable. It is, however, rough around the edges in ways that could really use some TLC.

For future reference you can simply edit your post to bypass the character limit. Goofy, but just so you know that's how it works.

My apologies, you are right, I didn't know that. This was my first time posting, and I greatly appreciate the tip, thank you!

No problem! You are certainly echoing a lot of the concerns DRK mains have had since SB release. Hopefully the more feedback people give the better the chances of getting the issues fixed.

Does SE even look at NA forums? I've been seeing so many of these threads that make reasonable arguments for whatever a job class is lacking, and yet following patches either don't address these issues or apply a band aid fix such as a very minor potency increase in some attacks.

I doubt Yoshi-P is reading the forums, that's why they have "community managers", right? So perhaps a bit falls on them for either passing off feedback as rants, or just not getting the right posts to the right people. IDK and am not trying to place blame but that's certainly one of the reasons they exist - to take the communities feedback and give it to the devs.

But we also need people outside pushing for change. Like, well known players with established audiences interviewing other well known players with established audiences about why a job is so terrible.

dont forget pay 1800 mp on grit in combat in the case you have to for wathever reason.

DRK in general is unrewarding to play. We manage two resources closely (mp and blood) and dont have the self sustain/cooldown/utility or dps of the other two tanks. Sure DRK is still ‘usable’ but its not fun anymore and there is little satisfaction or pay off for playing optimally.

Aside from some wonky skill progression as you mentioned, DRK biggest pain is its lack identity.
It doesn’t excel at anything nor does it have any notable strengths.

I keep advocating that the best way to fix the class is to give it a magic resistance debuff (like war slashing debuff) as that build synergy with caster/healer dps and allow caster oriented comps to be competitive with the current meta comp.
Put that magic debuff on dark passenger and you fix sooooo many issues in the current job design...

I'm sorry, I do agree with a lot of what's being said in this thread, but a part of me wishes "Pain Points" was a Dark Knight skill.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

I keep advocating that the best way to fix the class is to give it a magic resistance debuff (like war slashing debuff) as that build synergy with caster/healer dps and allow caster oriented comps to be competitive with the current meta comp.
Put that magic debuff on dark passenger and you fix sooooo many issues in the current job design...

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I agree this was my way of making Drk having an identity too right now melee comps are just too valuable and I wish there was a magic tank to kind of solidify and bring in some utility I mean War brings slashing why can't Drk bring magic vulen? Who knows what kind of direction SE wants to take Drk it's clear they have no idea how to balance the tanks at all when they said that was gonna be their top priority.

Leveling DRK was the most painful process in my gaming career, but 70 lvl DRK feels just so much right with TBN.
It was definitely worth it, that low cooldown shield is something i do like, will it be using it on myself or on the second tank or a healer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Aside from some wonky skill progression as you mentioned, DRK biggest pain is its lack identity.
It doesn’t excel at anything nor does it have any notable strengths.

I keep advocating that the best way to fix the class is to give it a magic resistance debuff (like war slashing debuff) as that build synergy with caster/healer dps and allow caster oriented comps to be competitive with the current meta comp.
Put that magic debuff on dark passenger and you fix sooooo many issues in the current job design...

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Drk has the biggest aoe dps out of all tanks, its just doesnt seem any useful outside of clearing trash mobs.
And the 20% hp shield for 7 sec and 15 cooldown is also good.

They could simply "fix" the DRK with two steps, taking away Dark passenger mp cost and letting us use blood prince and blood weapon in whatever stance.

@Nedkel To add to that, also allowing SE HP regen outside of grit.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Snip.

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I would argue that WAR aoe dps is better than DRK.
IR steel cyclone/decimate and Unchained+overpower spam is ridiculous as both sustained and burst aoe dps (and vengeance damage reflect is icing on the cake).

I agree that DRK operates well as-is but they still don’t have a feature that makes them attractive. They are jacks of all trade and yet fall short to WAR/PLD in every aspects.
DRK imo is the only class in the game where you can’t say “I bring <JOB> because of their <Feature>”

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

I would argue that WAR aoe dps is better than DRK.
IR steel cyclone/decimate and Unchained+overpower spam is ridiculous as both sustained and burst aoe dps (and vengeance damage reflect is icing on the cake).

I agree that DRK operates well as-is but they still don’t have a feature that makes them attractive. They are jacks of all trade and yet fall short to WAR/PLD in every aspects.
DRK imo is the only class in the game where you can’t say “I bring <JOB> because of their <Feature>”

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This is exactly it. WAR at this point has been so "fine tuned" that they added more stuff than they realized they did. DRK is now just a half-measured attempt at a job with zero identity, even-though it has the best job story quests.

sarcasm: Which SE will likely do the same in 5.0 when WAR also gets a story that is better than DRK because why not? /s

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

I would argue that WAR aoe dps is better than DRK.
IR steel cyclone/decimate and Unchained+overpower spam is ridiculous as both sustained and burst aoe dps (and vengeance damage reflect is icing on the cake).

I agree that DRK operates well as-is but they still don’t have a feature that makes them attractive. They are jacks of all trade and yet fall short to WAR/PLD in every aspects.
DRK imo is the only class in the game where you can’t say “I bring <JOB> because of their <Feature>”

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This is "mostly" true, but as we've come to notice recently, that when it comes to magical TB fights, DRK does take a bit less dmg on TBs, and PLD takes the least on auto attack dmg. (looking at O6S, where PLDs and DRKs in the OT role, PLD take less, and PLD/DRK in the MT role take semi similar amounts of dmg, as PLD reduces fluff dmg, and DRK almost makes up for it, with the TB mitigation.)
And of course then theres WAR mitigating almost equally as much of both.
But its such a small thing, it really isnt worth saying its DRKs specialty, but it is technically the truth.

Agreed on all points! I think just lowering or removing the MP cost on Dark Passenger would make it way more useful.

Sole Survivor should restore a lot more MP, have a much lower cooldown, or be just given a new effect. The fact that it doesn't even restore enough MP for a single Dark Arts, on a 2 minute cooldown, is pretty laughable...

As for making DRK less boring at low levels, one suggestion I really like is to make Bloodspiller a level 50 ability, and Quietus level 60. That way we would get our gauge much earlier, and playing 50 and 60 capped content would be a less of a slog.

After playing WAR for almost 3 years, DRK feels like a challenge - and I like that. I get nervous about tanking again and that, to my crazy brain, feels good. DRK makes my own knowledge about the job another mob or boss in a dungeon that I have to figure out and overcome. It feels, to me, that each of the skills that seem unnecessary work in tandem and fit the DRK aesthetic quite well. Something about watching Sole Survivor proc is rewarding. I look at DA + Dark Passenger as another defensive cooldown (in a way). I don't think I saw you mention Blackest Night which pulls the entire kit together from my view and makes you more tanky; there's also something about popping it and standing IN an AOE to get that proc. In dungeons, I just learned recently to toss out an Unmend and then Abyssal Drain as the pack is clumping together (most of the time the free Unleash procs for me oddly) which gives me a nice enmity lead. But, I do have to toss Abyssal Drain more often than I do Overpower when I'm on WAR. I definitely see all of your concerns and some changes need to be made to MP costs and how Power Slash works. But the more I play DRK the more I want to play DRK especially in hopes of a substantial change in the near future. Stick with it. I think you'll be glad you did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lannybaby

Does SE even look at NA forums? I've been seeing so many of these threads that make reasonable arguments for whatever a job class is lacking, and yet following patches either don't address these issues or apply a band aid fix such as a very minor potency increase in some attacks.

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Intelligent and smart game developers would never take advice directly from a single player or small sample of players, no matter how reasonable the suggestion is... because there is absolutely no way to know if the suggestions offered coincide with the wishes of the community as a whole. Even if those suggestions were really sensible, you might still find only 1% of the playerbase wants those changes in a hypothetical survey.

Most game developers seem to basically just go with their own judgement and gut, rather than doing everything based on forum suggestions. Unless there is a very large general consensus (such as "DRK underperforming") in the community, forum suggestions will not be directly implemented.