A little tip for a WAR trying to learn

I keep seeing WAR in dungeons doing different things. like When should you change from Defiance to Deliverance? also. i have my own rotation and its very sloppy. I have looked for guides and such but so far most the ones i found seem to assume you are already a pro and just breeze through with little to no explanation. I am decent at tanking I have yet to lose aggro and cause a wipe because of that. however i will admit that my DPS could be better and i could get more fluid with my rotation.

when i start my rotation on a mob i use throwing axe into overpowoer x2 maybe 3 depends on how spread out the mob was. then i going into storms eye to storms path x2 and back to storms eye and repeat. when available i will unchain with berserk and use either steel cyclone if many enemies remain or inner beast if one or just a couple. I have not unlocked inner release yet plan on doing that the next time i log on.

I have not found a good time to switch stances. even at bosses ive found as soon as i switch i start taking on more damage than my healer can handle so i end up swapping back anyway. any info would be a huge help. I want to get the WAR down so i can really start end game content

Honestly, best way I've figured where I can use deliverance during a boss is to learn the bosses mechanics and plan your zerk FC spam around that. Also, using a CD helps a little bit as well.

Hopefully that helps a bit.

Hi, friend.

As a WAR tank, this is your opener: http://ffxivrotations.com/1c5y

This is a high enmity opener, while lining up your burst damage at the start of your pull.

Right now WAR places things on CD. Your Infuriate should be on CD 100% of the time so that you can Fell Cleave at will. For the most part, I only use Onslaught to shorten distances and as a GCD during Inner Release window. Upheavel should also be on CD. Make sure you keep Storm's Eye up as well.

Stance dancing isn't 100% necessary. If you need to go back into Defiance, then it should be done when you're aware of a high burst damage coming towards you. Popping Unchained and using Steel Cyclone (For AOE heals) or Inner Beast (for a solid heal) is fairly recommended.

Otherwise, you should be mitigating damage. Review Warrior's kit for mitigation abilities. We've a lot of it.

I have noticed that if I go into Defiance while Unchained is off CD, my damage doesn't suffer a huge hit.

Thanks ill look into the opener and i will have to go through my entire kit again.

Tip: Don't look for static answers to variable problems. There is no static answer because such an approach cannot account for every variable detail, such as whether your Healer is geared/experienced and/or can they maintain their own damage while healing you in DPS stance. Sometimes you don't always have the freedom of comfort-pulling. How hard do the enemies hit? How hard does your party hit? eg. If it's a long fight (be it low DPS and/or non-trash/boss), the enemy in question hits hard, and your own group is slow at killing, then this has an effect on the Tank & Healer.

In short, the only real thing you can approach from a static PoV is your openers/rotations, so work on those. At the end of the day, this is an MMORPG - a good player (in any role) can adapt on the fly without relying on predictable/set patterns. Sometimes shít just hits the fan.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

In short, the only real thing you can approach from a static PoV is your openers/rotations, so work on those. At the end of the day, this is an MMORPG - a good player (in any role) can adapt on the fly without relying on predictable/set patterns. Sometimes shít just hits the fan.

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I agree completely with you. but how ever there are actual tips that people can give those that are trying to learn their job better. There is never one single way. however i have always taken the advice and ways the others do things and add my own twist to it and become pretty good at my role.

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Originally Posted by Graiggy

I have not found a good time to switch stances. even at bosses ive found as soon as i switch i start taking on more damage than my healer can handle so i end up swapping back anyway. any info would be a huge help. I want to get the WAR down so i can really start end game content

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Unlike PLD & DRK tank stances, Defiance doesn't actually affect your damage intake in any meaningful way. It gives you a slight amount of parry rating based on your beast gauge (up to 10%) and more hp and that's about it. Mainly the reason to go into defiance is either for higher enmity or access to inner beast / steel cyclone (self healing) but rarely for reduction to dmg taken (outside the 20% dmg reduction for 6 seconds from inner beast for tankbusters).

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Originally Posted by Thela

Unlike PLD & DRK tank stances, Defiance doesn't actually affect your damage intake in any meaningful way. It gives you a slight amount of parry rating based on your beast gauge (up to 10%) and more hp and that's about it. Mainly the reason to go into defiance is either for higher enmity or access to inner beast / steel cyclone (self healing) but rarely for reduction to dmg taken (outside the 20% dmg reduction for 6 seconds from inner beast for tankbusters).

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A lot of people don't understand this part right here. Probably the most important part. It does affect our damage dealt, but unchained being separate CD from IR now allows us to handle that more elegantly.

While insignificant, Tank stance does raise some really trivial stuff like the amount of HP you get from your passive in combat regen (2% of max), the amount in which benediction heals you for, and the bonus HP you get healed back for. (Technically makes thrill of battle heal you a tiny bit more as well)

But if anything, Tank stance should be used for the HP multiplier, not the parry from beast guage.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

While insignificant, Tank stance does raise some really trivial stuff like the amount of HP you get from your passive in combat regen (2% of max), the amount in which benediction heals you for, and the bonus HP you get healed back for. (Technically makes thrill of battle heal you a tiny bit more as well)

But if anything, Tank stance should be used for the HP multiplier, not the parry from beast guage.

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The bonus of Thrill of Battle is primarily used (when against bosses) to increase enmity/aggro while in Deliverance. For the most part it remains on CD.

I don't think Defiance is useless; if anything the changes have brought it up more significantly in comparison to its previous uses (thanks to IR and Unchained sharing a CD)

Even were that not the case, it'd be a lie to say there weren't any uses for Defiance prior to this buff.

Hey. Graigy. The best time to switch over to deliverance IMO, is whenever you have a high enough threat lead that you won't lose the boss's attention without defiance on. After that, just stay in your dps stance and rotate cooldowns. All warriors ever get from defiance is extra health and threat, so you're really not missing much by staying in deliverence. Pop back into Defiance whenever you want to use equilibriam, but aside from that, just get comfortable smashing bosses face first instead of from behind. We're at a point in gearing that if you die because you were in deliverance, it's because you had a terrible healer, not because you're playing wrong.

As far as dugneons go, my tip is to stack cooldowns and plan ahead for which cooldowns you'll stack for certain pulls. I aggregate my CDs into two groups, each for a wall-to-wall pull, because that's about how many there are between bosses in a dungeon setting. For one group I might use unchained with rampart, ToB and conva, and on another group i'll IR steel cyclone and deliverance with more vengeance and RI+awarenes, as an example. In both cooldown groups, my damage output is good while tankiness is optimized.

Sometimes there are common settings where you're gated and force to pull 3 mobs at a time, and for that I'll more than gladly tank said group in deliverance with limited cooldown usage, so long as aggro is managed.

However, you'll learn that being able to put out a lot of dps depends a lot on your party. If your healer knows how to AoE and use their cooldowns to buff their HoTs to keep you healthy, and your DPS know how to use their cooldowns accordingly, then you know mobs will melt and your cooldowns will suffice so you can go HAM. However, if your healer is strictly a curebot, and your dps don't know what an AoE is, your damage output won't see it's true potential because your cooldowns will run dry, and dpsing could mean unworthy risk.

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Originally Posted by Thela

Unlike PLD & DRK tank stances, Defiance doesn't actually affect your damage intake in any meaningful way. It gives you a slight amount of parry rating based on your beast gauge (up to 10%) and more hp and that's about it. Mainly the reason to go into defiance is either for higher enmity or access to inner beast / steel cyclone (self healing) but rarely for reduction to dmg taken (outside the 20% dmg reduction for 6 seconds from inner beast for tankbusters).

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See this i was not aware of. that is a huge help. my guess is i thought the difference was because of increased dmg resist. but must be it was the self heals. Ill have to have a talk with my healer. and see if i cant get him to get a better heal rotation.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Hey. Graigy. The best time to switch over to deliverance IMO, is whenever you have a high enough threat lead that you won't lose the boss's attention without defiance on. After that, just stay in your dps stance and rotate cooldowns. All warriors ever get from defiance is extra health and threat, so you're really not missing much by staying in deliverence. Pop back into Defiance whenever you want to use equilibriam, but aside from that, just get comfortable smashing bosses face first instead of from behind. We're at a point in gearing that if you die because you were in deliverance, it's because you had a terrible healer, not because you're playing wrong.

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This is pretty helpful honestly. I plan on spending some hours on a striking dumby to get my rotation fluid.

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Originally Posted by Graiggy

See this i was not aware of. that is a huge help. my guess is i thought the difference was because of increased dmg resist. but must be it was the self heals. Ill have to have a talk with my healer. and see if i cant get him to get a better heal rotation.

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No worries, many healers are not aware of this either and think you are a bad tank taking unnecessary damage for not staying in defiance which is just not the case. That being said, there are of course situations where being in defiance is helpful. You do gain a larger hp pool and thus can survive longer if taking heavy damage, plus you get access to self healing for the same scenario. And of course the 20% damage reduction from inner beast is very good for tank busters, but if you can survive it with other means its generally preferable because every time you use inner beast is 1 less fell cleave ;)

I'm fairly certain Defiance grants you a 20% boost to received healing too, which is like a permanent Convalescence. Saying it doesn't help the healer is misleading.

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Originally Posted by ItaruKarin

I'm fairly certain Defiance grants you a 20% boost to received healing too, which is like a permanent Convalescence. Saying it doesn't help the healer is misleading.

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It does help the healer that is true. which i believe someone brought up. however if your not struggling for health and the healer is able to keep up then I can see why people are saying that you dont have to stay in Defiance the whole time. If you are getting slammed pretty hard then yes staying in defiance would be advisable. But im starting to understand how to get the most out of the WAR. I am going to have to go through my rotation and get something down and get it so its fluid. This is probably where its going to take awhile.

Actually warrior tank stance is almost exactly the same effectiveness as paladin’s shield oath. It is not just extra hp, it is the 20% healing modifer that increases survivability and healing efficiency and effectiveness. 20% healing boost (and more hp) provides basically the same benefit as 20% mitigation. What makes it worse than paladin is the fact the damage hit is 20% instead of 15%, though this is offset by abilities that ignore the damage penalty. Another downside is that it takes at least one heal to start being as effective (to fill up the higher max HP) so the benefit is effectively delayed a bit. This is to balance the fact it is oGCD, unlike paladin. You are basically using a healer GCD to activate while paladin uses their own to activate (when switching mid-battle). If you start out a battle in defiance, this is not really a downside (just like the GCD isn’t a downside for paladin out of combat).

The main argument for not using tank stance is that tank DPS is better than healer DPS. As a result, if you are not at risk of a wipe from the lost mitigation, it is better for the healer to be healing more and DPSing less, than for the warrior to DPS less by staying in tank stance. The trick is knowing if the healer is capable of keeping up (and if they happy with healing more often and DPSing less).

I think the vast majority of players are not measuring precise damage output. However, they will notice if your a pain to heal or you get KOed. Unless you are sure there is no risk involved or you need defiance for a specific beast ability or burst phase, it is probably better to stick with defiance most of the time when tanking. The actual DPS advantage, when factoring lost healer DPS, is quite small between the two and really not worth the additional risk for most players.

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Originally Posted by ItaruKarin

I'm fairly certain Defiance grants you a 20% boost to received healing too, which is like a permanent Convalescence. Saying it doesn't help the healer is misleading.

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At level 70 healers can do a ton of their healing through abilities, which aren't buffed by Defiance or Convalescence at all. If I'm using almost no Cure/Cure II/Regen, Defiance isn't really helping.

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Originally Posted by Launched

At level 70 healers can do a ton of their healing through abilities, which aren't buffed by Defiance or Convalescence at all. If I'm using almost no Cure/Cure II/Regen, Defiance isn't really helping.

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Defiance only works with spells? If so, that seems like a big oversight from the devs and doesn’t really make sense from a balancing perspective. I take back my support for defiance. :(

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Originally Posted by Braven

Defiance only works with spells? If so, that seems like a big oversight from the devs and doesn’t really make sense from a balancing perspective. I take back my support for defiance. :(

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Indeed. Pretty sure it's always been like that, but became a somewhat larger concern with the introduction of more off-GCD heal abilities post-50.

I have seen so many healers just walk through the dungeon and only heal. Im dabbling with a WHM and like to throw out aero if i dont do anything else. I know its not much but at least its a little extra damage. I can usually hit some stone on the boss or mob once in awhile depending on how well my tank is geared/how well they know how to tank... Its sad i switch to healer for a little bit and get so frustrated because then i have a tank who cant hold aggro and was causing us to wipe or causing me to actually hold aggro and heal myself as the healer (which never flipping works). Maybe if i found a good static group things would be different. but right now its my best friend and myself. he was my healer now he is my red mage and im using my DRK to 70.... sucks i cant trust anyone in these roulettes to be my tanks. I have ran into some decent tanks when we are doing the 8 man.... but i have no luck with the 4 mans

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Originally Posted by Graiggy

Its sad i switch to healer for a little bit and get so frustrated because then i have a tank who cant hold aggro and was causing us to wipe or causing me to actually hold aggro and heal myself as the healer (which never flipping works).

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To be honest that's probably the best way to learn the game, by playing each of the various roles (or at least being able to see from their perspective). I actually started this game many years ago as a whm before eventually becoming a tank main, I can say without a doubt it helped make me a better tank early on because I was able to see how/where other tanks struggled. Though, I don't heal at all now because I find it quite terrible with a controller (compared to how easy it is to control tanks and dps with it) - but again maybe it's something I wouldn't have found out without trying them in the first place.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

To be honest that's probably the best way to learn the game, by playing each of the various roles (or at least being able to see from their perspective)

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Oh i have done all the rolls a little. I love healing. In WoW i main a druid healer. Healing is more my thing I have a blast keeping people alive and always scanning and seeing things that the DPS or tank miss. or see where they are making a mistake and help them correct it. but for some reason In this game I just have a hard time finding a tank that can either hold aggro or doesnt go off and pull the whole damn dungeon thinking that he can halndle it.... a lot the time they end up dead before i can even get my second heal off. I would love to run my WHM and get a good idea on how all the rolls are played.

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Originally Posted by Graiggy

I have seen so many healers just walk through the dungeon and only heal.

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Kick them....

I mean it's pretty common, no doubt. We have a lot of new players with expansion and new content, people leveling up their alts (characters or classes), people coming back from long breaks, etc. And you also have to consider people like me who already have all 3 tanks at 70, I don't run dungeons or even 24-mans on my tanks. I raid on tank so when I wanna do other stuff I just play as dps. So instead of getting pro tanks you're left with people learning or just leveling up lol

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

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Which isnt a problem if they take advice given to them. I try to listen to anyone who gives me a pointer during dungeons or trials because I know there are people who are better than I. The issue arises when they dont listen or get mouthy when you try to give them a pointer. I actually coached a brand new tank through a dungeon. Wish he would have been on my server so i could friend him and run more content with him and really help him out. he was taking what little advice i had to give and by the end of the dungeon he was tanking like he knew what he was doing. felt really good about helping the guy out.

Don't use Tomahawk in dungeons. Stick to Overpower. Like if you see a group of 3 monsters, don't use Tomahawk on one of them and then use Overpower. Doing this means you won't have agro on the other monsters for over 2 seconds. That's enough time to send the monsters to one of the DPS, and then you'll have to chase after them to get them back.

So just walk up, open with Overpower and try to hit as many as you can. Tomahawk is only for bosses or single targets.

As for rotations, every single dungeon is different. So there is no point in trying to copy what other Warriors might do. It also depends on your healer. With some healers, you won't be able to do the things you did on that one dungeon. You just have to kinda go with the flow. If you want to stay in Defiance the whole time and only use Deliverance for bosses, that's fine. It won't make that much of a difference.