The Four Lords and the implications (spoilers)

So while the MSQ this patch focused on the build up towards what is happening next with Garlemald, the start of the Four Lords trail series had I feel a much bigger significance to the nature of Hydaelyn.

Infact the nature of the Auspices and their power opens up a whole new untapped area of lore we previously haven't seen, at least in any detail.

So what are Auspices?

From what I can tell from the dialog, Auspices are animals that due to some particular gift are able to live unnaturally long lives and the longer they live, the more self aware and the more powerful they get. It isn't explained but from Byakko's account the longevity doesn't seem to be intentional or due to a desire to survive. Byakko pretty much was waiting to die. That makes me suspect, at least in some cases, that this is some gift certain animals are born with, similar how some are born with the echo.

So then the question is why do they change over time. It sounds like they grow stronger the longer they live. Genbu seems the only example of this not being the case and they point out he has been maintaining the ward on Koryu for a couple of thousand years which has left him weakened.

My guess is that Auspices absorb Aether from the world around them in a similar fashion to dragons and grow stronger as they get older as a result. Clearly after the change they develop a lot of powers including elemental manipulation and shape shifting including in to spoken races as we see with the Fox fate in Yanxia. Add to that that Byakko feels that it has been long term exposure to a crystal of Light that has lead to the Four Lords growing as strong as they have.

What is the nature of their 'primal rage/eternal calm' though I wonder? Dragons that are alone for a long time can be driven into a destructive rage by it. Alternatively it could be something like the Inner beast or a DRK's darkness but on a different scale. Honestly I am hoping we learn a lot more about this lot going forward.

Also it is curious that I cant think of one example of Auspices from Eorzea. Makes me wonder if it is something in Eorzea that stops them happening or something in Orthad which encourages it.

Other things that stick out to me is the obvious fact that Tensin was quite likely a WoL. They even said it was rumoured he had communed with the star itself and he did have what is almost certain a Crystal of Light. Also the Auspices talk about Susano as if they know the primal. That makes me think they either don't know what a primal is, there is more to Susano than just being a primal or maybe that he has been summoned before.

On a side note, does anyone else get the feeling this might be a means at some point of allowing 'summons' without using actual primals?

Yeah, the whole world-lore side of this came on like a sucker-punch from stage left. However, we're only recently arrived to Othard and this is all rooted existing Eastern mythologies, so I've just been taking it at face value until we get more specifics. I'm not very learned in the nuances but nigi-mitama, ara-mitama, (I guess no saki-mitama or kushi-mitama) and and the auspicious beasts all ring familiar. If you were looking to do some research, start with this: 瑞獣. At the very least, it explains the mentions of Tamamo-no-Gozen and Kamaitachi. (Though the latter, combined with mitama existing as a concept of duality, reminds me of the later, more standardized yokai references, lol.)

At first glance it seems like a logical progression form the crossroads of kami and the Four Symbols, but a deeper connection might actually exist in less basic mythology that I'm unfamiliar with. Whatever these are, they seem closer to kami than Susano, at least.

Though I would also like to point out that "born with the Echo" seems like a misnomer. It's true that Eorzean legend describes "immortal souls reborn on the cusp of each Calamity" but as far as we know people are chosen to be gifted the Echo deliberately - often as adults.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

but as far as we know people are chosen to be gifted the Echo deliberately - often as adults.

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Isn't that incorrect though. We know for sure Ysayle was a child when she had the echo, as the vision she had while lost in the snow was what spurred her to become Iceheart; my giess is 8 or 9, old enough to understand the vision, young enough to misinterpret it. And based on his accounts Arenvald was a child when he got his. He's nineteen, one could argue he is still a child, but if we go back 5-7 years that makes him 12-14. I believe he indicated he used what little the echo gave him to help him survive. By his account though weak, he seems to have a bit of foresight, similar to what Fordola has.

Also that begs the question, what is our unique Echo manifestation?

So i just realized you said often... T.T

I'm wondering if the potential to be an Auspices is limited only to the non-spoken races or not. 'Cause if it's not... that would explain the Twelve only being an Eorzean thing pretty well. And why knowledge of them has survived all the Umbral Eras including the first one.

Then there's all the beast tribe legends the primals are based off of. An Auspice of whatever race doing badass stuff makes a pretty good starting point for most of them (Garuda and Ramuh would be obvious exceptions).

I'm really rather pleased to see all these new mysterious phenomena we're running into in the Far East: the mechanics of the world and aetherology as we knew them were getting a bit too knowable and predictable in my opinion, heh.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it is due to some unique aetherial quality of this particular area of Hydaelyn that things like auspices (and, say, Tsukumo from the Kojin quests) can come to exist, much like Eorzea has an abundance of primal-summoning aether around due to the fount of magic at Lake Silvertear, as well as Elemental activity in the Twelveswood.

Is this Tenzen the FFXI Tenzen? He looks VERY similar, armor and hair. Also, Senri mentions he has a Pheonix blade, which is the weapon Tenzen in FFXI has (it contains the literal embodiment of Pheonix, which is a "Primal" in FFXI. It could be another homage like Krile and Ramza though, but then again, Iroha visited Eorzea too and the name of the orchestration roll given by the Auspices quest was "Iroha"...

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Is this Tenzen the FFXI Tenzen? He looks VERY similar, armor and hair. Also, Senri mentions he has a Pheonix blade, which is the weapon Tenzen in FFXI has (it contains the literal embodiment of Pheonix, which is a "Primal" in FFXI. It could be another homage like Krile and Ramza though, but then again, Iroha visited Eorzea too and the name of the orchestration roll given by the Auspices quest was "Iroha"...

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He's Tenzen, in the sense that the Tenzen of Hydaelyn is clearly very similar in appearance to the Tenzen of XI, but unless outright and unambiguously stated, homage characters are never literally the same as their original versions.

As for Iroha, she's a a special case, because she showed up during an event (the only exception to the above rule outside the Omega raids).

I don't think it's mentioned directly, but since we're outside Eorzea, would it be the lack of dense aether?
If you recall when you first travelled into the game (legacy not withstanding) you're told how thick the aether is here. Primal eat this stuff like candy.
If Othard doesn't have as much, various abberations would have different means if appearing, no?

I did find it interesting that these animals became that way even without that crystal of Tenzen since Byakko was already changed and quite old when he first came in contact with Tenzen. So did the "crystal" just help them grow even stronger faster than normal or would they have stayed weaker forever?

Also it would be interesting if only animals can become such beings or if this is something the spoken races can become too? Maybe these animals had their own kind of echo that they have somehow mastered thus learned the way to be immortals. (Kinda like an Ascian?) Maybe this way someone with the echo could overcome their limits too and become like them too?

I am interested in seeing how this will turn out. Its nice that they are not primals and seemingly only harm the planet if they lose control of their anger.

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

As for Iroha, she's a a special case, because she showed up during an event (the only exception to the above rule outside the Omega raids).

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Though she never left Hydaelyn (and was given a Hyur model, rather than her Hume model from FFXI. Kinda makes me feel bad for Shantotto, who remained in her Tarutaru FFXI model), so she's still wandering around somewhere.

I find this whole new Auspices introduction very interesting and fascinating. I hope they'll delve more on them in the future, and that it's not just some spice thrown there then forgot. I haven't yet fought Byakko so not sure if there is more I'm still missing, after that?

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Though I would also like to point out that "born with the Echo" seems like a misnomer. It's true that Eorzean legend describes "immortal souls reborn on the cusp of each Calamity" but as far as we know people are chosen to be gifted the Echo deliberately - often as adults.

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I remember this because it stroke me: Arenvald, talking about Fordola (and all the artificially infused with echo) in the previous patch, says something like "They aren't born with it, like we are".

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

I remember this because it stroke me: Arenvald, talking about Fordola (and all the artificially infused with echo) in the previous patch, says something like "They aren't born with it, like we are".

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Took me a minute to find this one again; t'was Alphinaud.

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Alphinaud
Hmmm... I wonder... Could there be some fundamental difference between one who is born with the Echo and one who has been artificially imbued with it?

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That leaves three possibilities:

[1] It's a localization error.
[2] Alphinaud is ignorant.
[3] It's the truth.

We have the Eorzean legend that "souls with the Echo are reborn on the cusp of every calamity", but so far this has been treated as the error. Even Koji Fox, speaking of the Starshower, said it was Hydaelyn making her choice. "This one."

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漠然と超越者とは、人工的な「超える力」保持者だと考えていたが、何か違いでもあるのだろうか？
Vaguely, thought the Resonant were artificial Echo holders, but are there differences?

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Sans trop savoir à quoi nous en tenir, nous avions présumé que ces “Résonnants” possédaient un pouvoir artificiel identique à l'Écho. En serait-il autrement?
Without much real knowledge, we had assumed that the "Resonant" possessed an artificial power identical to the Echo. Could it be otherwise?

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Hm ... Bisher bin ich davon ausgegangen, dass diese Überwesen, wie die Garlear sie genannt haben, Wirte für eine künstlich erzeugte Kraft des Transzendierens sind, die aber genauso funktioniert wie die uns bekannte. Sollte das ein Irrtum gewesen sein?
Hm... So far, I'd assumed that the Resonant, the Garleans called them, were hosts for an Echo that was artificially-created but which functioned the same as that which we know. Could that have been a mistake?

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My first guess would be poor phrasing, I think. Though the possibility that they might bring the reincarnation aspect back to explain some of the deeper mysteries one day hasn't ever been wholly off my radar either...

Uhm yes, now that I see how the sentence it hugely different in the other languages it raises concern.
My bad about remembering the wrong person too, Alphinaud is indeed not the best source about Echo.

I took it to be a figure of speech/metaphor for getting the Echo in the "natural" way (being given it by Hydalen) vs. getting it in an artificial way. Particularly since getting the Echo artificially seems to be as much of a hindrance as it is a help. From what I could tell in 4.1, Fordola's Echo can't be turned off or ignored and causes her a lot of pain. It certainly doesn't stay in "sleep mode" until she needs to get critical insights into people's motives like ours does. So maybe Zenos' Echo is the "on steroids" version of whoever he got the Echo from?

I kinda wonder if one of the major differences between being "given" the Echo vs "stealing" it is that Hydalen gets to customize the the "version" of the Echo for whoever she is giving it/waking it up in. Getting it artificially means no customization and that throws everything out of whack.

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

He's Tenzen, in the sense that the Tenzen of Hydaelyn is clearly very similar in appearance to the Tenzen of XI, but unless outright and unambiguously stated, homage characters are never literally the same as their original versions.

As for Iroha, she's a a special case, because she showed up during an event (the only exception to the above rule outside the Omega raids).

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And Shantotto

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

And Shantotto

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...and Lightning. :p

Regarding the Auspices (and some other Eastern Phenomena) I think it's best to just go with how they're presented in Eastern Mythology. The idea that animals who live long enough gain mystical powers is a classic in Yokai lore. As to why they've only shown up in Othard, in universe it's probably some sort of special aetheric property of the landscape or something. I don't think they're necessarily connected to the Echo at all, although they are one of the few other truly supernatural beings we've encountered that aren't Primals or constructs. In Stormblood FFXIV borrows quite liberally from Eastern Mythology, even Tsukumo himself is a play on the "Tsukumogami", objects that last a certain amount of time and gain mystical powers and identity as a spirit.

The Auspices probably have something to do with Kami, the only real differing magical phenomena from Eorzea. Kami like to inhabit old objects so it's possible maybe Auspices are animals that have lived long enough that their body serve the same function as ancient treasures to the kami. Or perhaps it could be a naturally occurring variant of what the bosses in Rabanastre are, just minus the auracite obviously, but that would bring into question why other animals outside of Othard can't do it. Unless of course they have and have just been very quiet about it, before we were summoned by Auspices themselves the only interaction we had with any was in the Fox FATEs and even then I'm pretty sure most people thought it was just weird magicks.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Isn't that incorrect though. We know for sure Ysayle was a child when she had the echo, as the vision she had while lost in the snow was what spurred her to become Iceheart; my giess is 8 or 9, old enough to understand the vision, young enough to misinterpret it. And based on his accounts Arenvald was a child when he got his. He's nineteen, one could argue he is still a child, but if we go back 5-7 years that makes him 12-14. I believe he indicated he used what little the echo gave him to help him survive. By his account though weak, he seems to have a bit of foresight, similar to what Fordola has.

Also that begs the question, what is our unique Echo manifestation?

So i just realized you said often... T.T

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Quick note, Ysayle was an adult when she saw her vision 5 years ago. She was fleeing the cold brought on by the Calamity when she chanced upon Hraesvelgr and the Echo granted her the vision that led her down her path.

As she was 24 when we met her, she was probably 19 when she discovered the power.

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Originally Posted by RomildaRayne

snip.

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Yeah I just reread the lore book and it does indicate that, I was going by what I recall her saying about herself, specifically a "child freezing alone in the snow". She often referred to herself as a child when referencing her past. But maybe it's more symbolic than litteral.

I had a sudden thought; dialog from the critters in the shrine under Hell's Lid implies that Tamamo-no-gozen, the kitsune from the Foxy Lady FATE, is another such Auspice. Could Ixion be another Auspice? How about Kinko, from the Astrologian storyline?

It'd be interesting if it was eventually revealed that there's something about Orthard that leads to the rise of such creatures. I'm not asking for Allagan involvement, but there's plenty of interesting artifacts in the region that might play a role, such as the House of the Crooked Coin, the tower in the Ruby Sea, and eventually, Eureka.

I thought the tower in the ruby sea was meant to be the future deep dungeon. (except that we climb it this time)

Just realized something. In one of the Ruby Sea sidequests, the Confederacy says they collect the lava of Hell's Lid and forge swords out of it that can supposedly kill demons. The sealing stuff going on underneath Hell's Lid is probably where the legend started, or maybe it's not even a legend...

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I had a sudden thought; dialog from the critters in the shrine under Hell's Lid implies that Tamamo-no-gozen, the kitsune from the Foxy Lady FATE, is another such Auspice. Could Ixion be another Auspice?

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According to Ixion's description in the mount menu it's some kind of Mhachi bio-weapon. Given its location it may have been at least partially responsible for Skalla's destruction. Either that or it was brought by the Mhachi refugees that ended up in Gyr Abania and it broke free from their control at some point.

It seems to me there's an imbalance in aether or at least the way it influences the environment... eorzea is aether dense and we can't fly... as we get farther away from the core we gain flight due to the wind aether currents... perhaps eorzea is like a clog in the aether flow... elsewhere where the aether flows freely perhaps it has an effect on animals after prolonged exposure...

I have this strange feeling the storyline may end with a Yamata no Orochi Trial boss fight.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I had a sudden thought; dialog from the critters in the shrine under Hell's Lid implies that Tamamo-no-gozen, the kitsune from the Foxy Lady FATE, is another such Auspice. Could Ixion be another Auspice? How about Kinko, from the Astrologian storyline?

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Made a thread just for that topic alone. Another interesting thing is the topic of Kami. They are worshipped by normal races and beast tribes alike. Hell Kojin hardly qualify as beast tribes. They don't worship any specific deity AND none of them are tempeted. Also I find it funny that as far as we know Oni are completely fictional. I mean they only appear in the legend of Tenzen, but as we learn from Genbu there were never any oni.

All this is begging for a new lore book.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

What is the nature of their 'primal rage/eternal calm' though I wonder? Dragons that are alone for a long time can be driven into a destructive rage by it. Alternatively it could be something like the Inner beast or a DRK's darkness but on a different scale. Honestly I am hoping we learn a lot more about this lot going forward.

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The aramitama of Byakko had a lot of similarities to Nidhogg, particularly the reddish black aura and incoherent fury. Since there were signs in Heavensward that Nidhogg and Hresvelgr might have the Echo, it's possible all the First Brood became auspices due to their extreme age. The way the Four Lords described Koryu in full aramitama does remind me of Nidhogg, who was too maddened with rage.

There's several problems with Dragons becoming Auspices. One is that living 1,000 years is nothing to a dragon. For reference's sake, that's how long the Dragonsong war has been going on. Several of Hrasvelgr's and Nidhogg's children are older then that and there's nothing "special" about them due to how long they have lived.

The other is that dragon "intelligence" seems to be either there or not when a dragon is born. We meet several young dragons in Anyx Trine and they're just as intelligent (if not more) then any other children of a spoken race is. They just age really, really slowly. So they'd probably be considered "mature" in 1,000 years just from their normal life cycle.

The biggest reason though is that Dragons aren't native to Hydaleyn. They're aliens from another star she has allowed to live on her. We've seen countless times that they have very weird ways of interacting with aether compared to any other living things (life-force contained in eyes, physical shape determined by aetheric balance, can capture the aether of other living things, can effectively mind-control their progeny, their aether can be transfered to other beings, etc.). Given that Auspices are an apparently normal atheric phenomena (if a very, very rare one), it's highly likely the concept doesn't apply to dragons. They're just too alien to Hydaleyn to assume the things work "like normal" with them.

Since this is Japan, I'm betting Seiryu wont be a dragon but a seahorse. Being a seahorse would make a bit more sense as its dragon adjacent but not technically a dragon. The Japanese word for seahorse is Dragon Child/Dragon's Child.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Since this is Japan, I'm betting Seiryu wont be a dragon but a seahorse. Being a seahorse would make a bit more sense as its dragon adjacent but not technically a dragon. The Japanese word for seahorse is Dragon Child/Dragon's Child.

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The world map illustration shows him as a proper Asian dragon - although it's possible his 'normal' form could be a seahorse?

(though... isn't the Japanese word "tatsunoko"? Like has already been used for the sea-serpent type enemies?)

I wouldn't be surprised if Seiryu turned out to be the Auspice of a lizard or snake. That would give you a more Eastern looking appearance while keeping the dragon race as we know it separate from the Auspices.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The world map illustration shows him as a proper Asian dragon - although it's possible his 'normal' form could be a seahorse?

(though... isn't the Japanese word "tatsunoko"? Like has already been used for the sea-serpent type enemies?)

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Yes, there's even a minion.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The world map illustration shows him as a proper Asian dragon - although it's possible his 'normal' form could be a seahorse?

(though... isn't the Japanese word "tatsunoko"? Like has already been used for the sea-serpent type enemies?)

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Yes, thats because Tatsu is another word for dragon, ko means child; or small, but thats usually before the word itself, and no is the noun modifier. That's why the word seahorse is literally dragon child or dragon's child. Hey the word for glove is hand bag, lol.

With the story arc now finished, I think the most compelling thing about all four of them is how they all took on a more humanoid form when transformed, Suzaku being the most human-like of the four. I wonder why these animals took on such a distinctly anthropomorphic shift with the Echo.

Probably to be closer to and more like Tenzen (especially Suzaku.)

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Probably to be closer to and more like Tenzen (especially Suzaku.)

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That or just the game designers wanting more interesting boss forms to use.