I have been playing as a tank ever since the end of 3.0 and started with my beloved dark knight (RIP my dear friend...).
After having some fun playing around with the three tanks in the new expert dungeons and extreme trials I wanted to just air what I think.
Paladin
The tank for all seasons.
Paladin seems to be on Hallowed Ground when it comes to patches as the incremental nerfs to holy spirit (and a larger nerf on shield swipe) have done little to dampen how well it functions in terms of being a cooldown machine, three different party utility skills and the requiescat/holy spirit combo that makes it do rather decent DPS with everything it offers.
It still remains the tank of all seasons, able to main tank and off tank extremely well. In large group situations it has clemency to self heal and total eclipse while for raid bosses it can easily laugh at them in sword oath (both as MT and OT) with respectable single target DPS and a bevy of cooldowns to mitigate damage and party utility to help in progression. It really can do it all and with large glowing wings on it's back.
Warrior
The Comeback Kid
After an extremely strong showing in 3.0, 4.0 warrior felt a little off. Shake it off was largely laughed at and beast gauge management was extremely janky with all beast gauge points lost when you swapped stances. As time has gone on, it began with incremental changes...and then there is 4.2.
Most notably, Warriors ability to deal with large groups of trash has gone through the roof. With inner release usable in Defiance, its possible to use Steel Cyclone up to 5 times which provides an insane amount of HP regen or you can slam the floor with Decimate 5 times if you feel a bit riskier to your health pool. Warrior's trash game has become a lot safer.
In terms of single target/raid situations, you dont need as much preparation as you used to and so the Warrior "rotation" has become much easier (Inner release -> 5 x Fell cleave then maintain Storms eye and do whatever else you want till Inner release comes back. I'm sure there will be something more optimal released at some point). The downside of this is those warriors that enjoyed the slightly more complex gauge management of the pre 4.2 Warrior - but no doubt it will make Warrior easier to approach for beginners. Sure, Storms Eye got nerfed and other potencies buffed but i'm not a napkin math warrior so i can't say if this has boosted or worsened dps. I can
only say that the changes make Warrior "feel" powerful. Shake it off is the crown amongst all of this providing a decent party wide shield.
Warrior is back baby (well I guess some would say it never left to begin with...).
Dark Knight
The Black Sheep.
Yes yes I know, dont groan as you hear another rant about how DRK is lacking (only because its true). Dark Knight received a couple of QoL changes (really in the grand scheme of things) and its core issues remain unresolved. With the changes to Warrior, DRK feels even worse.
In terms of trash, DRK has the worst of the lot. Unleash is expensive and ineffective for damage and only used maybe once. Dark arts + Dark Passenger remains expensive for damage it causes and the blind effect is the only useful part (but come on...Flash is spamable...). Dark Arts + Abyssal drain gives back HP but you can only do this maybe twice at most (after using unleash) before running out of MP (and you just hope that Delirium is up to restore some MP). The only positive abilities is...Salted Earth - No cost and gives some blood gauge (to help a little bit?) and Quietus restores MP so you can abyssal drain some more. Blood Price is just laughably weak now...made worse when you have a whm that uses Holy. DRK just feels a lot more difficult to self-sustain in trash battles compare to Warrior and Paladin.
For Raid and single target, DRK remains largely unchanged. The change to TBN have helped to make it activate more so theoretically you can gain more blood to spill more blood. Whether its the highest damage tank, I'm not sure...but if its not, it sure as hell has nothing else to offer to a raid. TBN really only benefits as a main tank and sure you can use on another tank if in the OT role but really DRK offers little in utility and has even fewer CD options than WAR and PLD making DRK slightly more tricky as MT. TBN is good as a tank buster CD but a waste if it doesnt go off and you miss getting the blood gauge. Whats worse is that I can never be sure if I want to use TBN to get blood gauge or just save it for tank busters.
Really I just feel confused when it comes to DRK. It doesnt "feel" powerful and feels like it offers so much less than Paladin and Warrior...
Well sorry for wall of text...this has been bubbling for the last two patches or so...ultimately I am going to use Warrior this cycle (my other friend is a PLD) and cry black emo tears as I lay my DRK to rest for the mean time...
Feelings on the current three tanks
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02-01-2018, 12:19 PMPhileasFeelings on the current three tanks
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02-01-2018, 12:37 PMSilver_Blade
PLD - King of defensive and utility.
WAR - Ridiculous single target and AoE burst. Yet also has the best utility skill in the game.
DRK - Lowest dps, defense, self healing and utility. While also being the most clunky with dark arts.
I've shouted it til I am blue in the face but SE just doesn't seem to care. Dark Knight is broken. -
02-01-2018, 12:47 PMXenosan
Other than the tweak to Souleater, DRK hasn't seen any adjustments to their non-Stormblood skillset. adjustment has been to DEL,Q,BS,TBN.
I'm maybe foolishly optimistic, but I hope now that they've got those skills where they need to be, they'll start fixing some of the lower level kit, which was nerfed at expansion or made redundant/poor after lvl70, or was always meh -
02-01-2018, 12:54 PMPhileasWould be great if we got Dark Dance back as our old ability...I mean WAR has Raw intuition and we have to...Cross role it? Makes no sense....Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenosan
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02-01-2018, 01:03 PMSilver_Blade
The best idea I have seen that would be painfully simple to do is make sole survivor apply either a damage vulnerability like trick attack or crit vulnerability like SCH's strategen. This would give them offensive utility but would leave their dps lower than WAR's which is apparently a must.....
This would make DRK desirable and compensate for their lack of defense. While making a niche cooldown at best into a core ability. -
02-01-2018, 02:40 PMHierro
If you're struggling to AoE as DRK, you're messing up somewhere. As far as dps skills go, unleash is irrelevent. Its purpose was never to be a useful AoE attack, only to gather aggro for the real dps in the form of abyssal drain. The trick to sustaining AoE DPS is to use TBN on cooldown, and using your blood on quietus. If you're pulling big, you are sure to generate a lot of blood via blood price and salted earth, ontop of the blood from TBN. When this happens, you are permitted to spam DA-AD. Once you are low on MP, use quietus. If you pulled large enough, you will regenerate enough MP to spam more DA-AD, but don't go below 1/4th of your MP bar when TBN is about to come off CD.
The end result will have you performing constant AoE while maintaining tankiness. To illustrate, I was running skalla and pulled wall to wall the groups before the second boss. My healer died fairly early on in the pull because they reacted slowly to a group of AoEs, but thanks to the number of enemies, I was able to heal so much from DA-AD, and regenerate more than enough MP to continue and delay HP plummeting from TBN until my healer was rezzed back. -
02-01-2018, 03:40 PMPhileasI didnt say I struggled, I just think it's not as easy as PLD or WAR. It is particularly annoying if a white mage spams holy because that prevents me from building MP or building Blood efficiently. I can ask a white mage to stop, but I dont need to do this as WAR or PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
Compare all the work needed for DRK to generate blood and MP but WAR has Infuriate and Inner release to spam all their abilities. If you use infuriate then inner release, infuriate comes back off cool down after you spam 5 cyclones (with enhanced infuriate trait) so you can infuriate again for an additional cyclone or whatever you want. Steel Cyclone is DA/AD in a single button and can be used fairly frequently as building gauge with Warrior is too easy with infuriate...as welll as using inner release drops any cost to zero. -
02-01-2018, 05:23 PMHierroIR is only 10 seconds of super sustainability, on a 90 second cooldown so it can't be used for every trash pull. Infuriate won't even be back up if for about 20 seconds if you do what you described, cause only lowers the timer by 5 seconds for each use. 6x5=30 seconds. Meanwhile, what I described for DRK can be used be used every pull and for far longer sustainability. Is it more complex than using a button? Sure, but what it's miles better than whatever AoE option PLD has and makes a strong case for being on par, if not better, than WAR's trash clearing capabilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phileas
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02-02-2018, 12:36 AMRasikkoleft stuff because char limitQuote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
I'm guessing all you run is expert, because TBN is out of reach below 70. All of DRKs glaring problems shine the brightest(or darkest heh..) below 70 :/. It's also somewhat depressing that TBN is basically all I've been reading when DRK is discussed. How far the mighty has fallen from Heavensward days as we've now been reduced to exactly one skill.. -
02-02-2018, 02:04 AMReinhaSole Survivor - target takes increased damageQuote:
Originally Posted by Silver_Blade
Dark Passenger - targets do decreased damage
Simple fixes to make both skills useful against bosses and to give DRK some utility. -
02-02-2018, 02:11 AMInfiniDragonI'd like both of those to happen, make Passenger an AOE version of old Reprisal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinha
I don't think they'll do Sole Survivor's PVP debuff though since it would pretty much guarantee PLD would get the sack again. -
02-02-2018, 02:23 AMRLofOBFL
Make Sole Survivor give 10% damage down for its duration(stacks with reprisal) and cut DP mp cost in half or to zero(depending on if it Yoshi p wants it used in ST or not). That would also make SS double as a light CD for single target which would help mitigate for the DRK and/or the whole raid if raid wide damage.
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02-02-2018, 02:48 AMDeceptusYou realize leveling content exists right? You can't design a class for endgame only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
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02-02-2018, 05:31 PMTheCountYes, and i've said it before and i'll say it again. Taking so much away from Dark Knight and then having the entire class so heavily revolve around TBN, which you then only get at absolute max level, was and still is probably the most horrible design decision I have seen in Stormblood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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02-02-2018, 06:06 PMEkimmakI dunno, I think Sigmascape 1.0 savage is a good contender.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCount
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02-02-2018, 09:24 PMSylvainIt reminds be of BLM in HW with GigaFire, who thought it was a great idea to make your core spell the last one you get. Every BLM basically had to learn how to play upon hitting max level.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCount
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02-04-2018, 01:34 AMRasikkoAs much as I get a hyped up over using that skill, my mp becomes a buzz kill when I drop below DA+AD mp. :/ I probably could just forgo the DA part...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
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02-05-2018, 04:00 AMkamenkuroActually, it all depends on how you pull. Pulling wall to wall means most of the time you're up against the fatter chunk of a dungeon where using IR is viable to keep yourself alive. Smaller sections of mobs are laughable. Especially if you consider how much easier it is to heal a WAR. That being said. DRK does better keeping aggro because of Abyssal Drain. The ranged aspect helps a ton. VS Steel Cyclone that needs to be positioned. The pros and cons for both are clear though. The thing is, WAR has a toolkit better suited for long drawn out fights, whilst DRK is better for quick engagements. WAR will be spamming steel cyclone, upping defense with IB, dropping storm's paths for more Beast Gauge. A WAR can live for a long while. DRK will pop off an AD, jump in, more AD, build Blood Gauge. They then drop grit and start tearing into things as long as their cooldowns last. WAR has a slower build up for it's gauge and a big pay off in the form of def boosts and regen. DRK can blow through resources faster because if they don't their limited defensive cooldowns will run out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
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02-05-2018, 04:30 AMDerio
The problem is the class revolves so much around lvl 70.
All content lvl 69 and below with a DRK is a pain due to the class being a broken shell. The defensive utility outside of TBN is almost non existent.
They need to Balance Shadow Wall with sentinel, bring back dark dance to add mitigation. Add a damage down affect to Dark Passenger.
However honestly I dont think DRK pre-lvl 70 will get addressed, nor do I think we are going to see big changes in 4.3 unless this raid tier truly excludes all DRKs to where the number of tank roles playing DRK drops under 15% -
02-05-2018, 06:55 AMiridemyunicorneverynight
I'm in love with WAR. I have been since it became my main. My biggest gripe with WAR in 4.1 is how tight the preparation was and how it blotched over one mistake. I'm a very loud advocate of the removal of raid wide buff system which favors some classes over others but I feel that will be a never ending battle. I'm rather happy that we have a standalone window that only aligns properly with MNK.
Being an older player, my reflexes aren't so great anymore that I can hit all the old necessary combos to align WAR DPS with the moon and the stars, so this is fairly welcomed.
With that said, I really want them to rework DRK so that other players devoted to their classes can enjoy a better play experience. I'm really saddened for DRK players. -
02-09-2018, 03:27 AMarmandojc3which skill is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver_Blade
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02-09-2018, 04:16 AMshao32Inner release and shake it offQuote:
Originally Posted by armandojc3
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02-09-2018, 02:07 PMAwfulCouldn't agree more with this, I switched from Drk to War and honestly I don't think i'll ever look back I run with my statics Monk and Brotherhood + All the raid buffs in the burst windows feel amazing, I have great utility and damage while having great short CDs and can cheese so many things with Holmgang. Drk badly needs a rework because it's very frustrating that we're at the next raid tier and Drk hasn't had an overhaul, War did which I am grateful for because i'm enjoying it a ton but my old main has been neglected and that's the choice I made to leave it.Quote:
Originally Posted by iridemyunicorneverynight
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02-09-2018, 02:30 PMAcidblood
As a none (savage) raider, but someone who enjoyed tanking throughout 3.X (even on PLD), the current state of Tanks is just meh (and I'm honestly not surprised there is a lack of Tank players because of it)...
PLD - Has all the tools (tick), but a few of them are starting to feel rather dusty ( :cough: Tempered Will, 180s CD :cough: ), and the gauge feels nothing but bolted on for the sake of having a UI bar (when Sheltron could have easily been given an interaction with Bulwark for a shorter CD)... in short, PLD is no better than the sum of it’s parts, when it should (and could) be so much more.
WAR – Good overall, but not a fan of the 4.2 direction (PLD is already the ‘easy’ Tank) ... Berserk only lasting 10s is rubbish, Steel Cyclone nerf feels bad, and the new Inner Release just seems boring (i.e. zero co-ordination required with other abilities / gauge... just Inner Release > spam X 5 times every 90s… zzz).
DRK - Selfish, sub-par meat shield with too many useless abilities (especially vs. bosses), too much spamming of Dark Arts for the sake of spamming Dark Arts, and nowhere near enough party utility to feel good about playing it. -
02-10-2018, 05:04 AMNedkelI just want to thank you so much for the advice in your post, i actually started to make an actual AOE DPS on my DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
Now the job doesnt seem too bad, instead i am amazed on how it actually working. Cant wait to hit lvl 70, with TBN mana and blood management will be much easier, it actually feels fun to play DRK now.
Thanks again.
I just love how DRK is not limited by any cooldowns and could straight forward go into the fight after another. I tried to play warrior, but i couldnt force myself to do it, hate that damage boosting cooldowns.
DRK could be tanky and deal a lot of damage if you know how to manage the resources properly, abyssal drain with DA heals on large pulls for half of hp.
Just need to learn how to combine delirium with blood price so i could make the most of it. -
02-10-2018, 06:22 AMDelilyIn general, you don't. So long as Salted Earth is down, that blood is better spent on Quietus.Quote:
Just need to learn how to combine delirium with blood price so i could make the most of it.