War has Shake it off 2 self heals +Raw intuition+holmgangs 180 cd vs DRKs 300 CD that they die with if not full healed Worse cd+longer cooldown? Shadow wall, Worse +longer cd +no slash debuff.
Paladin has divine veil Passage of arms Cover intervene a heal and bulwark +block
Without slashing debuff bringing a DRK over a warrior is a massive DPS loss + a burden to healers. DRK has no block or stacking crit / parry buff or inner beast
Bringing a DRK weakens any group as PLD / WAR bring more
This is an awful feeling. Knowing your group is worse off with you
Please either give DRK a DPS boost and give them slash debuff or utility
For instance make TBN affected by dark arts. When under DA it affects party members within 10y and when TBN is broken it restores mana 15% if used single target 3% each if DA version This would give them utility and increase their DPS a one change fix for all DRK's issues.
Please do not leave DRK broken until 4.3
Dark Knight is broken.
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01-29-2018, 05:42 AMSilver_BladeDark Knight is broken.
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01-29-2018, 05:51 AMSilver_Blade
I know this has been said and I am not alone but we need to let SE know that leaving DRK in such a broken state is driving people away from both the class and the game. When i saw the 4.2 notes and knew DRK would be broken for another whole patch I almost lost all interest in the game. Please voice your concerns if you have not already to let SE know this is a big issue to us.
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01-29-2018, 06:01 AMChrono_Rising
I'm not sure what more can be done. My joining this forum is entirely for the purpose of the issue of dark knight. I remember when I joined there were so many vocal and visible people making comments and throwing ideas around, and many of them I no longer see making comments. I know some of them have left the game until dark knight gets some real attention, but if people leaving the game over the developer not responding to job concerns isn't enough to convince them to at least make an official statement concerning player concerns then I'm not sure what can be done.
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01-29-2018, 06:27 AMTheCount
It feels incredibly frustrating how the DRK has been continually ignored. It's actually the reason why I now have all tanks leveled and geared up together because Dark Knight in its current state is a joke compared to the other two. A sad thing, considering I loved having my Dark Knight as a main in Heavensward.
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01-29-2018, 06:32 AMXesh
Tbh at this point I care more about how boring and brain-dead the playstyle of DRK has become...
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01-29-2018, 01:48 PMEliroth-Kaminari
for me its simple i play war 4.2 patch and wait 4.3 like i played PLD for 4.1 patch xD
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01-29-2018, 08:02 PMRasikkoDark Arts Marathon can't possibly be boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xesh
/sarcasm -
01-29-2018, 09:22 PMSilver_Blade
You should not have to abandon your class because of absurd imbalance.
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01-29-2018, 09:24 PMSilver_Blade
No changes in final notes. I guess they don't care DRK is a detriment to every group they are in.
We get to wait another 3 months and hope they actually do something. -
01-29-2018, 09:31 PMMagiusNecros
Preliminary notes are always final as far as battle system changes are concerned. Final notes just add in crafting recipes and items to prevent crafters from getting a headstart and getting mats for better prices. It's always been a shitty move.
People that think things will change from Prelim to Final stage are fooling themselves. Stop that. -
01-29-2018, 09:36 PMDerio
I am not going to abandon DRK due to imbalance. However my main issue is that 1, WAR has double the amount of defensive tools than DRK. 2, 4.2 just made WAR the king of tank dps( which ideally it should be).
Also people are going to prefer WAR and PLD this patch cycle due to both tanks having party mitigation, WAR having great dps and PLD having still better dps than DRK and providing more utility. -
01-30-2018, 08:58 AMKalocinI certainly don't find it to be exciting, and I probably won't renew my sub once I'm done the content again. It's not just the lack of Dark Knight changes though, however, they definitely contribute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver_Blade
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01-31-2018, 05:22 AMAriaFairchild
Oh come on, it's not that bad. In 3.x, DRK was the 2nd best tank in PvE, worst tank in PvP. Now in 4.x, DRK is the worst in PvE, yet is the king of tanks in PvP. I'd say it's fair balance of power! All 3 tanks take turns to be FOTY in the 2 game modes.
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01-31-2018, 05:45 AMMahrzeDoes it have to be that way, tho?Quote:
Originally Posted by AriaFairchild
Edit: Don't get me wrong. I am not even going to contest this, but again, they talk about changes and make a bonfire festival about how these changes are going to be amazing and please look forward to it only to baffle you with their conclusions.
Besides, WAR is really the FOTY every year because you think they have PTSD from early 2.0 WAR or something. -
01-31-2018, 05:50 AMMagiusNecros
Really tired of the flavor of the month Tank mentality the devs seem to have.
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01-31-2018, 07:42 AMjstamosLol yeah a group that doesn't have a NIN or SAM, like those exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver_Blade
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02-01-2018, 02:11 AMwhiskeybravo
But the first 2 savage bosses have magic auto attacks. DRK making a comeback!
Huehuehuehue -
02-01-2018, 02:14 AMXenosan
DA-DM is a 140 potency loss. 140 potency is the difference between a Fell Cleave and an Inner Beast. That standard that WAR wants to avoid IB at most cost, but DRK should jump for joy in raids where DA-DM can be utilized boggles my mind.
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02-01-2018, 02:24 AMValdegardeIt's even more of a DPS loss if one tries to pair it with other cooldowns. Dark Knight has to fit so many oGCDs into a window and either clip hard, hold GCDs, or hold offensive oGCDs. Learning fights to the letter eases this slightly, but Dark Knight is still prone to being completely frozen and having to mash tons of oGCDs in a very short span to answer a buster or mechanic, while the other tanks easily 1~2 oGCD, GCD, anything else, they're set.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenosan
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02-01-2018, 03:09 AMTouchandFeel
Honestly, the DRK kit and design is indeed "busted". Much of it seems cool conceptually but fails or underwhelms in practice.
You need look no farther than DRK's core job ability, Dark Arts.
Dark Arts is cool conceptually but the implementation of it has become both bland and cumbersome.
Just providing blanket +140 potency, while easier to balance, is incredibly boring and seems unnecessarily redundant to have multiple abilities all just have +140 pot for their effect. Why not a potency boost plus an additional effect so that there is some additional choice, strategy and depth to what you DA?
Also don't get me into the forced double-weaving due to having DA effects on OGCD abilites which are separated by GCD abilities that eat your DA. Seriously not a good design decision imo. They need to change it so that OGCD abilites that have DA effects like Dark Mind and Carve and Spit are redesigned so that they no longer have DA effects. Keep it so only GCD abilites have DA effects so that the OGCD DA and the ability you are enhancing with it aren't butting heads trying to fit into your rotation.
There are so many other things that are wrong with DRK that I am going to abstain from going into right now, especially since they have been repeated over and over for such a long time, but when the main "gimmick" of a job has obviously flawed implementation then there is definitely a problem with the job.
If the devs can spend as much time reworking WAR as they have been, I genuinely feel that at this point they owe it to DRK to give it that level of attention and focus.
Seriously SE stop with the blinders and the constant need to fiddle with WAR, just go hands off on it. I don't even care if it gets left in the debatably OP state it currently is in, just stop.
Now go and fix DRK. You've shown us that you can do some pretty extreme changes to a job during regular patch cycles, so do that for the tank that really needs it.
/rant -
02-01-2018, 03:40 AMMahrze
Agreed. DA is a crutch more than a game-play element. And with it being available on both sides of DRKs Toolkit, it just becomes an absurd tree of choices. At this point, DA should either:
a.- Become a trait to Darkside being active that increases potency and resource consumption of the skill by a %. (I'd say 15% and ignores Grit or 30% solid)
b.- Make it last the full 10s and not end upon use (can increase the MP cost to compensate)
DA then becomes a different kind of crutch:
* As a trait: Raises DPS while raising the resource management needs.
* As a timed buff: Raises Burst DPS Damage while compensating for the cost. -
02-01-2018, 04:28 AMTouchandFeelI don't really feel that the core of Dark Arts needs to change that much, that part is fine as is. The problem that I see with it is the way it synergizes with and affects other abilities. Like I said, +140 pot is just lame and a missed opportunity to do something cool with additional effects to abilites from Dark Arts usage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahrze
I go into the kind of stuff that I would like to see or think would help with this in a rework thread I made a little while back.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...od-Dark-Knight
You do touch on an issue that has been bugging me more and more as time goes on. DRK has virtually no real burst window. To me this is a problem because it leaves DRK with no good way to take advantage of party buff windows like Trick Attack, or at least nowhere near the extent that WAR or PLD can. That just doesn't sit right with me. That and it also leaves the game-play of DRK a tad flat, like you're never really building up to or preparing for something. It's too consistent. Hopefully the devs will be able to figure out a way to give DRK a real burst window and cycle when they do a rework while maintaining a uniquely DRK feel to it.
Off the top of my head here is a little variation of an idea that I had before on how to do this.
Create a way to "store" Dark Arts usages where if you press the DA button again after activating it but not consuming it with an ability, it "stores" that usage as an "Abyssal Shard" (or whatever) that appears on the gauge UI sort of like WHM Lilies which could then boost the effect of the next DA that gets consumed by an ability, such as doubling the potency increase from the DA. -
02-01-2018, 05:01 AMMahrzeWell, the thing is is that DRK right now has more resources to use and less ways to optimally use them:Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
* DA can be used on 9 different actions/abilities for a 140* pot increase on 7** actions/abilities and 2 "defensive" boosts
* Blackblood can only be used on 3 abilities. And while we have 3 abilities to gain this resource, its gain is the only burst we got.
The crux here is not just the way an ability affects gameplay, but how that helps the identity of the class. The job has two resources that can easily overflow and like you mention: "The job is too consistent in what it does"; everything DRK does can probably be measured by a metronome and never miss a beat. And we agree with this, it's not that its bad, but it's not just boring, it's overall unsatisfying.
Saving dark art shards is really not that different than having DA as an effect for (x)s. Which puts us back to square one. DA (and Blood abilities) need to be satisfying and have a flow that makes the DRK as a job feel satisfying and have a flow. We both agree, they CAN work on a job mid expansion to fix its issues. But IMO, changing the way DA works and making the blood gauge more useful is at the crux of it all. -
02-01-2018, 05:27 AMTouchandFeelI don't disagree with what you said and agree that more could be done to utilize the Blood Gauge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahrze
However, I would say that the way a job/class plays in a game defines it's identity and vice versa. They are intrinsically linked. DRK has a thematic identity, that's not a problem, it's the fact that it doesn't have a well defined and implemented game-play identity.
I don't feel that making DA a trait or something rolled into Darkside really helps anything nor makes the job more interesting, it just strips away the jobs main identifying game-play gimmick and makes it a passive part of the job. That seems more boring and bland to me.
Making it so that Dark Arts is a short 10s buff may help with the problem of double-weaving but it again makes it more bland by removing more active control and decision making for essentially constant, rolling mini buff/burst windows. I don't feel that really fixes the overly flat and consistent feel to DRK right now, it just changes the flavor ever so slightly.
As I stated earlier, I strongly feel that Dark Arts could be good but it needs to do more than just add potency to a bunch of stuff. There needs to be more actual choice and decision making provided from Dark Arts, not many roads that all lead to the same destination.
The shards idea was just something off-the-cuff as an idea to be provide a way for a DRK player to have the choice to actively shift their damage cadence by spreading out the cost, but then shifting and grouping the effect so that they can have a form of controlled burst to make use of things like party buffs or to adjust to things like boss jumps and the like. That and it would add an extra layer of complexity, which DRK could really use imo. By no means do I think it is a perfect idea as was presented and it could use refinement, I'm sure, but I would much rather add something like that than essentially take away Dark Arts.
EDIT:
Another idea for something like the shards that just popped into my head but utilizes Blood instead of Dark Arts.
Rework Delerium so that it works as follows:
Delirium - Lvl.66 – Ability <-- shifted to lvl.66 while Quietus and Blood Spiller are shifted to 62 and 64.
Cast: Instant – Recast:80s – Cost: variable – Range: 0y – Radius: 0y
Restores MP.
Additional Effect: While active the Blood cost to use any abilities is removed and the Blood Gauge drains by 10 every second. The effect ends when the Blood Gauge is empty.
This is very similar to a mash-up of the old Inner Release and the new Inner Release, which imo is very fun, so it could definitely use some refinement or adjustment but eh ... just something that popped into my head as a Blood fueled alternative for providing DRK some burst.
Other abilities such as Blood Weapon and Blood Price would probably need some adjustment to make up for the loss of the current Delirium. -
02-01-2018, 06:10 AMMahrzeI'd like to preface by saying that I am 100% on the same side in terms of sentiment (And have been since the start of our exchange). DRK needs a lot of work to make the "lore" or thematic part of its ID into its game-play.Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
I agree that 10s of a burst usage is not as controlled as a stack, but if we're to be honest 99.9% of the player-base would just use all the stack in a DPS window (akin to how WAR and PLD use their own resources in the same manner) hence why I saw it on the same angle. And if I may be cynical, the way the other two tanks play at this point point to that.
We're both on the same page on how DRKs motif should be of being in control about how much and when should it use all of its power (a condition to the trait part was making actions/abilities more costly in exchange but I digress) and that the choices right now are bland and predictive. And that's just wrong.
edit:
That was another thing I thought of in regards to delirium but it would just be how much can you make DRK into WAR, and while I know its fun, it doesn't really feel like it'll fix the issue. Again, just me. -
02-02-2018, 04:30 PMAriaFairchildI just find it really funny that in PvP, DRK's kit is very well-rounded, unlike the mess it has in PVE. It makes use of all 3 resources, it has several CCs (vanilla 4.0 it had 10s Unmend, making it that no job can kite it once it set its eyes on you), solid DMG (with silence on its burst skill, Bloodspiller, making its burst very potent on Healers) , solid self-heal, and TBN is an awesomesauce shield (unlike in PvE, the shield is 20% for both it and its ally).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahrze
Like...devs felt that DRK is just so awesome in PvP that they thought it should be trash elsewhere to compensate lol...its kit is complete opposite in the 2 modes -
02-02-2018, 05:27 PMXenosan
A small change to Dark Arts I'd like would be able to hold multiple DAs at once, so that I can drain MP pool 50% in a single GCD when MP is treading up 80%+ and DEL is coming off CD.
It's sad when I have to choose between overcapping mana or delaying DEL, like in AOE when Quietus returns can be hard to predict. And it'd remove a constraint of OGCD weaving order.