MCH biggest issue?

TL;DR
Heat management is what I believe to be the biggest issue, not from it's numbers, but for accessibility to it's main gimmick: tactical, heavy burst DPS to exploit burst windows.



I've enjoyed MCH since launch, even though it's DPM was known for being abysmal in many updates, it seems SE has been at a huge disconnect for the job's balance since 4.0 and this job, to me, still feels wrong. Perhaps it's just me but I feel like this job's DPM has been significantly buffed, but it's burst DPS has been somewhat broken.

I think that when MCH got revamped for 4.0, most people greatly enjoyed the new flow and style of the job from what I saw and asked. The problem was that their burst DPS was very low and their sustained DPM was downright depressing. I'm pretty sure SE wanted this class to be a tactical burst support job, and the gameplay was just about perfect to fit that style. The problem came down to raw numbers and laughable potencies for their abilities that completely reversed the effect that was intended, such as Overheat and Overdrive.
As a result, SE buffed the potencies and fixed those two major issues, but they changed heat values to being half of what they were, essentially turning their burst DPS into an inconvenient mess to get into unless everything lines up perfectly, which in practice hardly does.

As of right now, I think MCH has statistically found it's place but the rotation is far too strict due to the forced overheat mechanic and lack of convenient heat management abilities. Our heat management was fantastic on launch due to the Cooldown not being so heavy on heat loss in comparison to how quickly you can build heat with +10 heat per shot. Cooldown only equated to 2.5 GCD's worth of heat, making it an easy ability to help manage your guage. But now it cools WAY too much heat for it to be considered as convenient since now we generate heat at half the rate (Doubling our time to build heat). Now our only convenient way to force the barrel to overheat and enter our burst phase is by using Flamethrower, which is not exactly optimal for two reasons:
1. 60 sec CD can cut too close to rotations causing overheating issues in many situations. When using Cooldown, that requires Flamethrower to do two ticks of heat (a full oGCD window) to force overheat and thus break your rotation. Otherwise, you wind up sitting and waiting, not using your GCDs until Flamethrower finishes it's CD.
2. For AoE purposes, you WANT to use Flamethrower during Overheat's buff but its too difficult to overheat without using it. Using Flamethrower is a cheap way to overheat but defeats much of it's purpose as a powerful AoE damage ability. As well as many AoE phases ending too quick, further trivializing it's use into simply being an Overheat tool.


My suggestion to fix MCH hopefully once and for all til 5.0 is to either revert the heat generation back to it's 4.0 style as +10 Heat per shot. That or adjust how Cooldown works by possibly reducing it's heat loss to -15, rather than -25, and/or possibly reversing it's effects when using ammo so as to allow rapid heat buildup to help us force overheat without wasting Flamethrower and our GCD flow. This isn't a fight for higher numbers, this is more so for returning flow and accessibility to our job.
Also if they could change Flamethrower so that we can walk while it's active, that'd be great...

Perhaps this is just a me issue? But what do current MCH players and non MCH players think? And what keeps people from playing the class so that hopefully we can shed more light on why it's so under played (From what I've seen.)

What keeps me from playing the class, (and what I've already mentioned in another MCH thread), is the ridiculously demanding opener and every Overheat rotation.

I've seen people say they are having problems pulling off the 6GCD rotation at as little as 90ms latency, meanwhile I'm playing at 180-200ms, and can't hope to pull off even the 5GCD budget rotation without at least 1000 skill speed.

Issue I've had so far with MCH's rotation is the flamethrower and my random latency spikes. I still question who tought that it was a good plan to make a gauge rely on server ticks. One moment my flamethrower gives me a heat tick in less then 1 sec and another moment it gives me a heat tick after 1.5 sec. This just makes doing a overheated wildfire a lot more annoying then it could be.

I've suggested this in another thread but what I want is for hotshot to be a trait and give us the pvp version of hotshot where you get 25 heat when executed. This would allow us to double weave upon overheat, making it a lot more easier for both people with a high latency to get 6GCD wildfires and wont make it so you can get 7GCDs by extending wildfires/overheat their duration.

First of all, 6gcd Wildfire is impossible without memespeeds (2700+ sks), second off all, 6gcd OH is impossible when overheating with a gcd (OH doesn't apply to the gcd used to initiate it).

The problem with MCH is Flamethrower. It's annoying to use and far too tight with the timing for the general population. It enables 6gcd overheats which, in my opinion, shouldn't be a thing because of the latency disparity between players. It's also counter-intuitive for AoE now that it overheats halfway through the duration. Another personal gripe I have is forced ogcd weaving during Rapid Fire which is caused by the tight OH/WF window, it's cancer especially for high latency people. Ogcd weaves during Rapid Fire have zero room for latency (gcd anim lock + ogcd anim lock = 0,75s + 0,75s = 1,5s = gcd during RF) which is even tighter than double weaves during normal gcds (0,75s + 0,75s x 2 = 2,25s < 2,5s base gcd) and even those can be a pain for people with high ping.

For MCH to actually feel comfortable to play for more people:
-Flamethrower needs to not be stupid or there needs to be another way to OH or OH needs to be a penalty instead of a gain.
-The OH/WF window needs to be longer or Rapid Fire needs to not be a thing or there needs to be less weavable ogcds.

But those things bring their own problems with them so I doubt MCH will get any adjustments. Their dps is fine so obviously they don't need any changes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's not to be mean, but you should not make up fact like 6GCD Wildfire needing 2700+ sks. I have 1266sks for a 2.35GCD and I have 100% 6 GCD for my Wildfire. Then it depends on latency for other players, of course. I can even get a bit lower sks, but then it becomes luck for me about latency on top of a perfect execution (I think my record was succeeding it like once on a dummy with 2.40GCD, but yea I'm unable to make it a second time).

Also, I doubt the anim lock to be 0.75s for each skills (or I perfectly do it). But I agree they are way too long for some.

Other classes don't all have 2.5GCD in a way. Ninja, for exemple, get a lower GCD thanks to his kind of active/passive skill lowering his GCD for 70s and there is no problem for double weave. Monks got their Greased Lightning.

Why would you want OH to be a penalty? It's a bonus if well used, it's kind of a penalty if not well used.

Edit : In your opinion, game designers should balance timing around what ping? 200ms? (it's a real question). Because yes, people with high ping will have more problems than those with very low one, anyway, so I guess they have to set a limit.

I've two issues with the MCH: the Flamethrower, like everyone or most of the player, and for reasons already said, and the Turret.
Please, add to Ammo HUD or Heat gauge a "Turret is ready dude" or let the turret on the field but inactive...

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Originally Posted by Fannah

It's not to be mean, but you should not make up fact like 6GCD Wildfire needing 2700+ sks.

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My bad, went back to check the sks tiers. The actual number was somewhere around 2300 sks (2.2 gcd). The number comes from WF stopping to register dmg taken around 1 sec left on duration, so 3 x 1,5s + 2 x gcd must be below 9s for the gcd to register. I don't know if anyone's done real life testing on this so you might actually need more sks, but you're certainly not hitting 6 gcds in WF at 2,35s gcd. Test it for yourself and count the dmg you do and what WF does.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

Also, I doubt the anim lock to be 0.75s for each skills (or I perfectly do it). But I agree they are way too long for some.

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I don't know anyone who has counted frame perfect animation lock times and they do vary between abilities, but 0,70-0,75s is commonly used as the standard approximation among theorycrafters.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

Other classes don't all have 2.5GCD in a way.

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And that's precisely why those classes don't double weave or avoid double weaving whenever possible. MNKs for example only double weave during Riddle of Fire, which makes their gcd longer.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

Why would you want OH to be a penalty?

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No need to OH means no need to FT or reattach GB, so less timers to worry about and less ogcds to use.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

Edit : In your opinion, game designers should balance timing around what ping? 200ms? (it's a real question). Because yes, people with high ping will have more problems than those with very low one, anyway, so I guess they have to set a limit.

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I think SE has said they're designing the game to be played at 200 ms, but I don't have a source for that.

Personal opinion, but nothing felt clunkier than shots being +10 heat back in 4.0. Felt like constant hard stops to prevent OH when you didn't want to, whereas now it feels pretty smooth. I too have my Flamethrower gripes (mostly that being I'm fired of that being made out to be the most amazing thing we got in SB when it just isn't), but I've accepted it for what it is now.

Haven't done much PvE wise lately so I can't really chime in on the rest.

It irrationally bothers me that Flamethrower is listed as an instant, but actually takes almost a full GCD before affecting heat which is unaffected by skill speed. So, it feels like a cast without a cast bar. That’s what introduces this weird floating feeling that requires a lot of practice to get a feel for. And even then, you have to have excellent reaction time and be lucky with the server tick to squeeze six GCDs into an overheat, but the consequences of failing to do so results in a less than stellar wildfire.

It’s all very odd.

They should extend Overheat's duration to 12 seconds to ensure you can get six GCDs off.

I also wish Flamethrower did decent damage like it does in PvP, enough that you'd actually want it to run its full duration whenever possible. To facilitate this, they could make Overheat's timer not actually start ticking down until Flamethrower has finished.

MCH just need a complete rework!

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Originally Posted by AlvinOwl

MCH just need a complete rework!

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No, clearly not. Just some QoL improvements.

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

No, clearly not. Just some QoL improvements.

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I think that a rework wouldnt be that bad of an idea because right now, SE has no clue what they want with MCH, which is just sad...

Just to list a few examples.
How long did it take SE to inform MCHs that they needed to overheat? If I remember right it took them 2 months to fix the issue of overheating not being all that much of a benefit, in most cases even being a loss.

The start of 4.05, when they introduced Omega Savage, the BRD dummy had more HP then the MCH dummy. Which also shows that SE expected MCH to do less dps then a BRD. This has been changed after 4.06.

In 4.1 we got the unneeded +1% hypercharge buff, 4.2 they decided to remove the previous buff and give us potency increases.

Just looking at all this shows that SE has no clue what they want to do with the job. If SE wasnt as oblivious to the QoL things that are needed on MCH, then yes, a rework wouldnt be needed. But it's clearly visible that they dont have a set plan for the job. I feel like the +1% hypercharge buff is supposed to have the same effect as the Balance buff on AST had, draw more people to the job. Which it clearly did.

Another great example of them being oblivious is Yoshi-p's comment about MCH being fine when he was on the JP servers.
Yes, damage wise the job is fine, maybe to strong even. But gameplay wise it needs a lot of adjusting. Like when you're leveling the job and unlock your gauge at level 52 but a way to manage it at level 62 and a reason to manage it at level 64. Why is this not all done at level 52, 54 and 56 or at level 62, 64, 66? Would make leveling the job a lot easier and make it not as big of a pain to play in level 60 content.

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

I think that a rework wouldnt be that bad of an idea because right now, SE has no clue what they want with MCH, which is just sad...

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They have a very clear clue what they want with MCH: Wildfire.

They just don't know what else to do with it. Even the new, shiny gauge is just another extra clunky CD to add to it and when you read through the thread, most gripes seem to stem from issues with optimizing the one trick of the pony one way or another.

The rest is just tuning. They're getting close to where they want it, so changes are gonna be small from now on.

Personally, I find that too one-dimensional. I quite enjoyed it when Overheat was an ambiguous gain at best and had hoped they'd reinforce the notion of Overheat being something you don't want to do in order to capitalize on Heat management mechanics in future expansions. Turns out they went the other way and aligned all cooldowns and even Hot Shot to Wildfire to drive the point home.
Well... if that's what MCH players want, they can have it. I'm playing something else >_> But since you (as in: The OP) asked what keeps people from playing the job, well... there! My 2 cents. I still find MCH quite enjoyable when I "don't" bother with Overheating, but there's the lingering feeling of guilt when I do because it's quite obviously less than ideal, so I'm not burdening groups with it very often.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

The rest is just tuning. They're getting close to where they want it, so changes are gonna be small from now on.

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Changes should be made in a better way and not worse as they announced in the last live letter.

I hate flamethrower. People like it cuse they are "forced" to use it for opener. I also hate the timer of wildfire. 10 sec to just juggle everything is annoying xd bring it back to 16 sec or increase it it to 12 sec so i feel there is 10 sec.

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Originally Posted by Kazzoey

even though it's DPM was known for being abysmal in many updates...

Perhaps this is just a me issue?

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Yes, its a just you issue. MCH has been very competitive performance wise for a long time.

20 sec its the ideal one. XD
I think 15 will be ok!

Obviously, the biggest problem for machinists right now is that our firearms are too small. I want to pull something like this out of my holster.

http://static.digg.com/images/2d5826...rge_thumb.jpeg

Just got MCH to 70 this last weekend and by far one of the most fun (albeit sometimes extremely frustrating) jobs I've played. I never played, or even leveled it, during HW so I only have SB MCH for reference.

I can't seem to relate to these complaints, though. If you can actually execute the rotation on time everything falls perfectly in place. The annoying things are disconnects and mechanic type things going on in the fight, not really with MCH itself (imo). But eh..

I’m no MCH expert but I’ve played MCH from 4.0 and did all new primals and deltascape as MCH. I’m quitting MCH because I feel it is so boring after the heat generated changed to 5 and the hotshot timer “buffed” to 60s. The job’s rotation is dead outside the WF window, which is like 80% of the active time, plus all the CD usage are very scripted. (This is the same for all jobs but MCH suffer the most because of how dead the rotation is rn) It will be so much better if SE buff the combo timer by maybe 5 second so we can actually plan our WF. Also reverse the hotshot timer and heat change or add a dot will make MCH’s downtime much more fun. But anyway that’s just me.

It works like clockwork now, as opposed to the rather clunky start/stop, forced Cooldown usage before with 10 heat. As it stands now, if you line it all up right, it's all right there when you need it again. The only "downtime" would be the barrel cooldown after an Overheat, and while that 10 seconds can feel long sometimes, it's still pretty minor. As for planning Wildfires, I do that from the moment the barrel's back on and stabilized. And as far as the rotation being "dead", if you're just 123ing your way back up and waiting for cooldown alignments, you're doing it wrong.The rotation isn't Red Mage simple, but it's also not overly complex either.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

And as far as the rotation being "dead", if you're just 123ing your way back up and waiting for cooldown alignments, you're doing it wrong. The rotation isn't Red Mage simple, but it's also not overly complex either.

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What would you consider to be "doing it right" then? Once gauss barrel is back on, all you have left is 123 + gauss round and reloads for 30-35 seconds. I'd say that part of the rotation is even simpler than Red Mage, since you're just playing whack-a-mole with procs, one oGCD attack, and ammo.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

It works like clockwork now, as opposed to the rather clunky start/stop, forced Cooldown usage before with 10 heat. As it stands now, if you line it all up right, it's all right there when you need it again.

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This is actually my main issue with the job now. Heat automatically syncs up with Wildfire so long as you don't die/screw up, and the fight doesn't require you to adjust Wildfire timing in any way.

In fights with no downtime, like O1S, you never have to think about heat. The entire heat mechanic could be replaced by a 20% damage buff that triggers when you use Flamethrower and nothing would change.

In fights with downtime, you often have to make an awkward break from that clockwork cycle to delay Wildfire by a few GCDs. In O2S, you need to be absolutely perfect on your timing to avoid losing part of Wildfire to -100Gs, and again later when Wildfire coincides with Death's Gaze. In O3S, using Wildfire on White Flame will waste it, so you either need to delay Wildfire by about 3 GCDs or force the rest of your party to kill it without you.

It feels like heat is either a pointless mechanic that I never have to think about, or it's suddenly a really awkward thing I have to work around rather than something I have control over.

I'm not the world's biggest fan of the heat system overall, but I adapted as necessary. It's still entirely possible to misalign cooldowns or accidentally Overheat. I mean, you shouldn't, but raise your hand if you're not human and never make a mistake. And yes, some fights are quite irritating with interrupts, but it's your job to learn how to work best with it. When you know the encounter, you can time what you use and when much more effectively. That awkward break you mentioned used to happen a LOT more frequently, and not due to the encounter when heat was a +10, and things like Barrel Stabilizer had oddly long cooldowns.

I feel like a large reason MCH seems so inconsistent among the players is that the players are so inconsistent in what they want from it. Even SE noted that it was difficult to make changes based on feedback before 4.06 because the camp was so split. I honestly don't see how anyone at all has issues with the heat system as it currently works. ESPECIALLY when the old, common complaint about MCH was that it was "too complex". Maybe it's "too boring" or too simple now, but they took it from once again being misunderstood and excluded to being largely useful and favored for higher level content.

That awkward break wasn't as bad before, because heat didn't need to be synchronized with Wildfire. You didn't suddenly have to care more about heat where you wouldn't normally, because you always had to care about heat. You would have just delayed Wildfire while managing heat the same as before.

I'd also argue that changing the heat gain from 10 to 5 did nothing to fix why the job was excluded. It was excluded because it did less damage than bard (fixed with the overheat and hot shot buffs) while having less support than bard (largely fixed with the dismantle buff). It would have been completely possible to make the job wanted without making heat into this vestigial mechanic that might as well be Raging Strikes, making the job highly latency-dependent, turning Hot Shot into something you press once a minute, and turning Cooldown into something you ideally never use for its special effect and only use because it's marginally more powerful than your regular combo.

As I recall, Cooldown (above 50 heat) is equal to a Heated Slug Shot, so it's hardly a loss to "never use", plus in those rare occasions where you don't want to push for or need to withhold an Overheat but you're already near 90/95, that's when it still does its job as intended.

People were avoiding Overheating back then because doing so proved to be more of a loss overall than the 10% gain it gave. Buffing it and making things line up a bit more nicely made it clear that you were supposed to build and spend, not unlike some of the other jobs and their gauge mechanics, only most others don't have a forced trigger, thus you still have to plan ahead. And with proper planning, MCH has a smooth, clockwork-like rotation that still gets the job done, and done well.

I'm with the other person that said it: MCH doesn't need a massive overhaul (and we're quickly reaching the point that IF they keep screwing with it, it's only going to drive people away from playing it for lack of stability). Give it a few QoLs and it'll be just fine.

My problems with current MCH are:

1. Downtime is too boring. If you've played any other dps you will know what I'm talking about. MCH has the least things to monitor, near to no positioning problem.

2. WF window is demanding yet pretty much the same. Just need to remember some principle then you're good to go. But even spamming cooldown in WF won't make your dps bad.

3. Not much adaption you need to do in current savage fight. (I'm doing BRD in ultimate for fun so I can't comment about it) Like the only "adaption" to the current raid tier is: On O2S you either use 2 ammo opener or make sure use WF the moment it's available to avoid that -100 GS. In O3S don't use WF on the white ball thing and just switch to bishop for other adds. O1S and O4S are just dummy fight with some awareness of FT timing. But for other jobs there's so much more to do.

Those reasons make playing MCH stale real quick. I see some people don't like that you can't move during FT, but for me I feel it's the only challenge left for MCH, kinda like NIN's TCJ. But the fact that FT is heavily effect by latency is annoying. If you don't have steady ping it can mess up your upcoming WF.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

As I recall, Cooldown (above 50 heat) is equal to a Heated Slug Shot, so it's hardly a loss to "never use", plus in those rare occasions where you don't want to push for or need to withhold an Overheat but you're already near 90/95, that's when it still does its job as intended.

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I wasn't saying it was a damage loss to never use. I was saying it's a boring, underutilized skill now because it almost never needs to be used. I also didn't say that it was useless, but that in the ideal scenario, the only reason you use it is because it happens to be better than split shot and there's no downside to using it while overheating.

It may be a difference of perception then, because outside of an overheat, I don't think of Cooldown as an attack, I think of it as a utility. Sure, I'll use it for damage where and when it makes sense to, but I'm at no loss to not use it if it's not needed in the moment. And while I never felt MCH was complex like others once said, not even in its original form, I don't personally need complexity to feel good about using it. Instead, give me something that delivers 100% so long as I manage and utilize it well. And I feel that as MCH is now, while still not perfect, it's entirely capable of that. If anything, I like that careful planning and timing of cooldowns can make for a smooth rotation, yet still there's both room for error and recovery. Situational adaptation, I see as less of a kit-based thing, and more of a player-based one. But that's just me.

EDIT: On my way to my desk, I felt like that sounded as if I was saying I didn't want the MCH kit to be flexible, and that's not how I meant it. I DO want a flexible kit, but I don't feel as if it currently isn't in any significant way.

My biggest issue with MCH is when, due to me dying or the fight, my cooldowns get misaligned and I'm not sure how to really fix that without holding cooldowns.

II think if they made it so Overheat's timer doesn't start ticking down until Flamethrower ends manually or otherwise, it would resolve my only real issue with playing the job, which is getting off my first GCD quickly enough to make sure I can do a six GCD overheat.