New(?) idea: Junction of the Twelve

Hello everyone. While I was taking a shower this morning I've had an idea and I like it so much that I figured I would share it with you all.

Now as far as I know this is a new idea but I'm sure some of you will correct me.

It might be difficult to remember but before Viera, Dancers, people who glamour too much and RMT there were pretty frequent calls for a new progression system. This is what I want to tackle now.

Now the biggest problem with a talent system, according to Yoshi-P is that people would just end up picking the best option and the illusion of choice would go away.

Here is how I plan to circumvent this issue.

Once you get at least one job or class to the level cap you unlock the junction system. What are we going to junction? Primals? Nah, primals are for summoners. We are going to junction one of the twelve. Now instead of wasting XP you instead earn points that can used to level up your patron god and earn stuff like passive bonuses, cosmetic changes or even completely new abilities that may or may not replace basic ones. It is also shared between your classes. So you might not be earn more points with a class that is only level 10 or so, but you can enjoy the benefits. It is sort of like the legacy system in SWTOR. Although Diablo III's paragon system might be a better analogy.

So about picking the best: Like in the FFVIII Junction system you would be able to switch whoever you have junctioned. And each of the gods would be the best for something. Like one would maybe boost XP gain and have other perks good for leveling. One would be good for currency gain. Another might be the best at PVP healing or pve tanking.
And it would be up to you to decide in what order do you want to level them.

Of course ideally there would be lore heavy questlines to unlock each god on the grid.

This would also get players something more permanent to work for, unlike tomestones that quickly become obsolete.

As an added bonus this could even help class balance. For example let us suppose that Paladins are getting left out of PVE content because they are not as good as Warrior and DK. Next patch adds a new tier to the talent trees and the pve tanking god gets perks that increase blocking other traits that benefit Paladin more than the other tanks.


An optional but pretty nice addition would be to add vendors that increase their selection of offerable wares when you reach certain milestones with a given god, much the same way reputation vendors work.

These shops could sell, among other things, gear belonging to their favored roles made available for any class for glamour purposes.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ement-currency

Draco here has been working hard to come up with something to use the now pretty useless achievement currency. Either this shop or the whole junction system could also be a way to eat up achievement points. While achievements can't be grinded indefinitely as there is only a finite number of them available, they also increase with every content patch.

I wouldn't mind a system like this infact id even welcome it

Yoshi-P (a.k.a. Dad), get a load of this. #FundIt

I have a better analogy: like Grand Companies without everything that makes them annoying or combat-oriented. It would also help to have some sort of tie-in with the deity you pick upon character creation.

Only thing I'd recommend though is not having anything combat-related. As nice as it might seem to add something for extra job balance, that's just one more thing that devs have to worry about and often results in minor job adjustments take longer than necessary. Otherwise, not a bad idea.

I think a cool way to change your junction would be like in skyrim i mean we already have stone shrines doting the land scape so why not use them also i think this would make a good opportunity to fix the sign system where you choose your sign at the beginning of the game to give better bonuses not just the elemental resistances we get now that are useless leftovers of 1.0

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

I have a better analogy: like Grand Companies without everything that makes them annoying or combat-oriented. It would also help to have some sort of tie-in with the deity you pick upon character creation.

Only thing I'd recommend though is not having anything combat-related. As nice as it might seem to add something for extra job balance, that's just one more thing that devs have to worry about and often results in minor job adjustments take longer than necessary. Otherwise, not a bad idea.

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Holy crap. That IS a great idea. It could be the deity you start with when you unlock the system. The one you don't have to go after. Well I would be fine with keeping it all off combat and only providing cosmetic changes to abilties if at all, but I'd want a system that is interesting to as much of the playerbase as possible. But I totally understand your concerns.

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Originally Posted by RubyCirha

I think a cool way to change your junction would be like in skyrim i mean we already have stone shrines doting the land scape so why not use them also i think this would make a good opportunity to fix the sign system where you choose your sign at the beginning of the game to give better bonuses not just the elemental resistances we get now that are useless leftovers of 1.0

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I think more people would complain if you could not junction whenever. Obviously not inside duties and in combat but you get the idea. It would be better for the unlock questline to lead you to those stones. Or perhaps even the spending of the points. But no, junction change has to be doable in the field or people would riot.

The main problem I can see with such a system is inevitably players would still find the one that gave the 'best results' or give the best benefit for the least effort and then everyone would simply go for that. It's why such systems of 'choice' usually do not work very well in MMORPGs because 'choice' is misleading if not illusory.

Also it is increasingly clear in the game's very story that the Twelve... do not really exist (at least not in any way that directly interacts with the mortal world). It's Hydaelyn Herself (as in the Mothercrystal) that is the very real deity that is directly influencing the player's character's life and story (after all, She is the one that gave the player the Echo, and by extension, the Blessing of Light which is what empowers them as the Warrior of Light - gameplay wise manifesting in the 'Power of the Echo' to 'transcend your mortal limits' by offering stat boosts in battle).

So I think the Twelve will continue to fade into obscurity as Hydaelyn takes over as the main deity in Eorzea (and thus is also used in gameplay). Your idea about using the Twelve has merit, but the whole use of 'junctioning' members of the Twelve... does not really fit FFXIV's setting (the Garleans after all regard the Twelve as 'false gods' after all).

Having said that, it appears at least one point in 1.0 that the game's story was leading up to a possibility of maybe being able to equip a Primal in such a way like the Totemas from FF Tactics Advance - Ifrit basically told the player's character outright that as "one of the godless Blessed" (as in, an Echo user), they can summon their own Primal and forced them to swear that they will never do that - the player's Path Companion ponders that possibility only to then dismiss it as a "taboo best left unbroken."

As this line was completely scrapped from ARR it's pretty clear SE have long since abandoned such an idea alas, so I do not see SE using such a system given how SMN was executed with summoning Egis, and my earlier comment about human laziness just taking over and people simply chosing what gives them the best benefits for the least effort.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

The main problem I can see with such a system is inevitably players would still find the one that gave the 'best results' or give the best benefit for the least effort and then everyone would simply go for that. It's why such systems of 'choice' usually do not work very well in MMORPGs because 'choice' is misleading if not illusory.

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That's the whole point. One deity would be best for tanks in savage raids for example but another would be the best for healers in PVP and another would be good for grinding. The choice is about in what order you level up these deities. Or even do you level them all? You only need the ones used for the content and role you use.

Maybe we can get banners depicting their symbols for housing, but that could be tied to reputation merchants.

Edit: Also more City-State glams

I see two potential issues with a system which in any way effects combat performance, and it in both cases revolves around the fact that any combat specific buffs would come by the community to be seen as 'required'.

Firstly, it makes the time required for someone with more than one role take substantially longer to get 'up to standard'. I just need to point to WoWs artefact system for this. People burned themselves out early on in Legion grinding artefact power to max out their weapons so they had the maximum potential power out of them.

Secondly, it makes it take even longer for a new player to get to the point where they can start experiencing end game with other players as once they actually get to max level they will then not only have the gear grind but another progression grind before they are 'ready' for end game content.

A further issue with this is as time passes the progression system would need to be expanded to stay relevant potentially making the time it take for newer players or players who are changing roles to 'catch up' even longer.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I see two potential issues with a system which in any way effects combat performance, and it in both cases revolves around the fact that any combat specific buffs would come by the community to be seen as 'required'.

Firstly, it makes the time required for someone with more than one role take substantially longer to get 'up to standard'. I just need to point to WoWs artefact system for this. People burned themselves out early on in Legion grinding artefact power to max out their weapons so they had the maximum potential power out of them.

A fair point. But if we simply let you get points from every source that would otherwise give XP it could be a lot faster. There really isn't much to do in wow. It doesn't have the same variety of content we do.

Secondly, it makes it take even longer for a new player to get to the point where they can start experiencing end game with other players as once they actually get to max level they will then not only have the gear grind but another progression grind before they are 'ready' for end game content.

A further issue with this is as time passes the progression system would need to be expanded to stay relevant potentially making the time it take for newer players or players who are changing roles to 'catch up' even longer.

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Very true. But you know the grind starts anyway with tomestones. And this is at least something that will stay relevant. Plus you gain points by doing stuff you would do anyway like with Woundrous Tails or Squadron Recruits.

On the one hand if we only did non-combat bonuses none of these would be an issue. On the other hand if we did combat bonuses it would be easier to catch up with your other classes.

It is a risky system with drawbacks but I do believe it is a calculated risk.

It wouldn't stay relevant because everyone would see maxing out the combat improvements as a 'requirement' and grind themselves to death to max them out. The only way to stop that would be like they do with Tomestones by capping progress which undermines the value of the system in the first place.

Again these issues only grow worse as the system expands and the grind gets longer. They could make the grind more manageable but then the system has no lifespan and its just the equivalent of having a couple of extra levels on top of what you already need to level. Note the WoW system was specifically designed to only survive on expansion before becoming obsolete.

Non combat bonuses would most definitely make it non mandatory but it would be interesting if they can come up with enough non combat bonuses to make it engaging for people.

This is basically an alternative advancement system and they can become quite a quagmire. The only style of system I have seen like this which has a lifespan is a reward track system where you spend exp to progress through a track getting rewards at certain points, with the rewards getting progressively better the further down the track you are and perhaps a special reward for getting all the way to the end of a particular track. That way you still earn rewards but they don't effect your characters power. More over they can make the required experience quite large since these rewards aren't 'necessary' to perform a role and as such it becomes less about grinding and more about just being rewarded for playing.

I would love alternative means to enhance your character but as others have mentioned, it would either be the illusion of choice or a power cap that newer players will find increasingly difficult to meet. I've seen systems like this work best with a game that has a definite end in its leveling experience or is built around more horizontal progression but easily become a grind that would, as Belhi above said, burn out players or require roadblocks to progression just like tomes/resets do for gear now to remain relevant content and not be consumed in quick order

Eventually at some point though the devs will have to do some other sort of system of power increase beyond item level bloat or a slowly increasing level cap. Systems like the one OP proposed are just a different set dressing on other talent trees or prestige systems from other games, which while not bad, just don't seem to be on the plan for the devs currently. Frankly they seem to want to play it extremely safe right now even 2 expansions in

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Originally Posted by Belhi

It wouldn't stay relevant because everyone would see maxing out the combat improvements as a 'requirement' and grind themselves to death to max them out.

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When I said stay relevant I meant in the sense that we get a new tomestone every patch so one specific type of tomestone is relevant for a very short time. This is something you can grind for several expansions.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

When I said stay relevant I meant in the sense that we get a new tomestone every patch so one specific type of tomestone is relevant for a very short time. This is something you can grind for several expansions.

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We get new tomestones every other patch. Once we get tomestones of mendacity in 4.2, we won't get any new tomestones until 4.4 comes out.

Also, like I said in my earlier post, it shouldn't have any combat-based elements in it. Maybe something for crafters and gatherers as a means of promoting activity there, but nothing associated with combat or else it can lead to a potential PR hazard.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

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I hope not. This idea is basically a fancy sounding talent system. Multiple gods with multiple features, that's just talent trees.
Paragon system works in D3 because it's mostly a single/coop game. Bonus stats or traits would simply be fresh grounds for shitting at people for not having Y feature for X scenario. You want a ton of work to be done, when they already struggling with standard updates, which are more common than any other solid mmo out there.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

We get new tomestones every other patch. Once we get tomestones of mendacity in 4.2, we won't get any new tomestones until 4.4 comes out.

Also, like I said in my earlier post, it shouldn't have any combat-based elements in it. Maybe something for crafters and gatherers as a means of promoting activity there, but nothing associated with combat or else it can lead to a potential PR hazard.

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We could easily associate half of them with crafting (Byregot & Nymeia), gathering (Nophica, Oschon, & Llymlaen), and commerce (Nald'thal). I like the idea, but what do you do with the others?

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

We could easily associate half of them with crafting (Byregot & Nymeia), gathering (Nophica, Oschon, & Llymlaen), and commerce (Nald'thal). I like the idea, but what do you do with the others?

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Aesthetics? Mounts? At least Nymeia could be something related to the Gold Saucer.

Actually what I meant by that comment was to have some sort of generic bonuses in there for crafters and gatherers to attain. Basically anything to keep it away from anything associated with combat stats or buffs or otherwise anything requiring the words "balance" or "adjustment" in regard to PvE or PvP content.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Aesthetics? Mounts? At least Nymeia could be something related to the Gold Saucer.

Actually what I meant by that comment was to have some sort of generic bonuses in there for crafters and gatherers to attain. Basically anything to keep it away from anything associated with combat stats or buffs or otherwise anything requiring the words "balance" or "adjustment" in regard to PvE or PvP content.

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If the bonuses are good enough for people to care I'm all for non combat buffs. Of course that begs the question what deities like Halone and Rhalgr would give that is unrelated to combat. They are very much fighters. More reward items? More xp?

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Originally Posted by Balipu

If the bonuses are good enough for people to care I'm all for non combat buffs. Of course that begs the question what deities like Halone and Rhalgr would give that is unrelated to combat. They are very much fighters. More reward items? More xp?

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How about bonuses to squadron members? Still combat-themed without being associated with PvE or PvP content.

if it was relegated to non-raiding stuffs then i'd be for it but if it's just something that makes it "required" for everyone to have in order to raid then no.

Games have done choice relatively well in MMOs however the way FFXIV is set up it would be hard to implement without major major changes.

Remember the Favor system that everyone hated?

What if it were reworked a bit to include blessings from your patron deity? The one you chose wouldn't have such an impact as to affect game balance or choice, but it WOULD have an impact on YOUR character - things like glamour, mounts, furnishings and such.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Remember the Favor system that everyone hated?

What if it were reworked a bit to include blessings from your patron deity? The one you chose wouldn't have such an impact as to affect game balance or choice, but it WOULD have an impact on YOUR character - things like glamour, mounts, furnishings and such.

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Now this looks like something that could actually happen. Base it off something like the Grand Companies and we got ourselves a fancy perk system!

Give me my Nophica banner! Maybe we spend those points we get from achievements. I'm not sure what the spendable ones are called, since I never needed to use them.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

How about bonuses to squadron members? Still combat-themed without being associated with PvE or PvP content.

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All for it. It might not seem like it cause we tend to end up on separate sides of arguments somehow, but I really like your ideas.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

if it was relegated to non-raiding stuffs then i'd be for it but if it's just something that makes it "required" for everyone to have in order to raid then no.

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Yeah that's the idea. Don't make any option mandatory. or at least don't make the order of maxed out talent trees mandatory.