More Egi's Or Demi-Primals?

Do you think Summoners should get more egi's or should they be able to summon demi-primals instead?

Definitely more Egi.
Especially considering that we were only able to summon Ifrit-Egi, Titan-Egi and Garuda-Egi for years.

Also, the fact that SMN's quests alluded to the existence of both: Ramuh-Egi and Sephirot-Egi certainly didn't help matters.

More Demi Primals. Honestly they should replace the Egi Primals with it, too. Giving Summoners more Egi's would be a waste because only one gets to be the best and used the entire time, right now being Ifrit.
They're also tiny, unimpressive, forgettable and are barely engaging in gameplay.

Meanwhile what I've seen of Demi-Bahamut is something promising. It speaks true to the classic FF way of summoning that people wanted, it's impressive, powerful, satisfying to use and it's engaging. Even with its problems (mainly Demi-Bahamut following you like a lost puppy when you move just one yalm) it's still better than Egi's tbh. Hopefully they improve and add more to this system.

I think that they are going for the demi primal.
As said it represents the original FF summoner more

Personally I'd move to the 'sort of pet but not really' system of Demi-Bahamut for all summons. Auto-attacking dude who hovers over your shoulder. Keep the 4 options, have them be 'physical', 'magical', 'guardian' and good old Bahamut ultimate summon.

Remove the pet bar and give Summoner 2 new abilities that change based on pet:
Attack: 110 potency AoE for physical/caster "pet", 110 potency single target stun for guardian.
Assist: Radiant shield, Contagion, Earthen Ward except you instead of the pet.
plus slightly changed Enkindle: Inferno & Aerial Blast same as ever, Titan gets Gaol instead (pretty much Stoneskin II, full party 10% of HP shield.)

Then re-delete Sustain :p .

Not sure if it's just me or not, but demi-Bahamut feels much more responsive. Yeah his following you about is annoying, but it seems like when I hit 'Enkindle Bahamut' he does his thing, no 2 or 3 seconds messing about like Garuda with contagion. Honestly with how set and forget the pets are at this point I think it'd just feel better to have them function almost like stances rather than independent entities.

Edit: given more generic ability names you could also have any egi fit any role. I'd love Shiva, Ramuh and Levi egi options, maybe with Demi-Alex and Demi-Odin as well.

I wouldn't mind à demi primal such as demi Alexander

But, are we talking about proper skill or just skins?

Because if you want more than skins, in the case of ego you'll just end up with a new better one and in the case of the demi, I don't see how you could make a different one perfectly balanced.

I'd rather have skins, plain and simple

Depends on how they want to implement it, Demi-primals are not really pets so there won't be a real reason to lock them in roles, they might make you cycle between alexander and bahamut for all we know (as in after summon bahamut you gain alexander aether to unleash alexander trance to then power up summon alexander so the sky is the limit at least imho

frankly speaking they should however rebalance the egis to one be ST and the other be AOE (titan remains a tank) since there's no way for them to balance both in all scenarios

well good question.... my rpg/pve heart cries for more egis - while my raiding-mind hopes for demi-summons... q.q

I think current Egi's need more improvement. SCH can use each skill for specific situations, but summoner just keep it sic most of time.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Because if you want more than skins, in the case of ego you'll just end up with a new better one and in the case of the demi, I don't see how you could make a different one perfectly balanced.

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Demi-Bahamut has a timer unlike Egi's. With adjustments, they can add more Demi-Primals and make you cycle through them like as said. Like Bard songs, they'll all get a turn.

For me, I think a bunch of changes should be made like the summons costing one round of Aetherflow instead of 2 like in PvP, but this is only ideal if Egi's were removed. However, there's plenty of possibilities.

Oh I missed the part about making them cycle.
Yeah that'd be pretty neat ^^

More Demi Primals please ! Time to be a FF summoner and not a zoo keeper with a liking to biohazardous substances (plus it would save the DOTs for a possible Time Mage)

More seriously, I love the idea of demi summons that stay for 20 secs and do powerful attacks to accompany the ruins, and would rather have rotating demi summons than egis.

But we can't have too many, cause we should have to cycle them, otherwise we'll end up using the most powerful/cool looking all the time kinda like egis. Maybe with a system of level 1 / 2 / 3 summon you know costing more or less gauge.

Too many could be problematic idd

Didn't they confirm before that they are adding more Egi glamours, with Sephirot being one of the first?

Yoshi re-affirmed a few days ago that more Egi glamours are on the way.

More Demi's would be great too though. I don't see why we can't have both Egi and multiple Demi's. However I fear multiple Demi's will just have the exact same issue as multiple Egi. Even with a summon cycle in play I'm not sure how much leeway there would be to have multiple unique Demi's and keep each one unique.

Since SMN is a DPS role each Demi's primary output would most likely be based on damage output (single target, AoE, ranged, melee) After which it becomes less clear how the Demi's could offer anything different from each other.
Of course there's utility based abilities. However considering the utility in this game as a whole is rather basic, any utility based Demi would most likely only give 5% - 10% buffs/debuffs that only last 5 - 15 seconds tops.

I think a strong case for a healing Demi could be made though, since RDM has dual cast Vercure.

I'm not sure if Alexander would work as a new demi summon... something about its design makes me think it wouldn't be practical. And we can't stick to the idea a new demi summon has to be related to each 8-man raid series, because Omega breaks that thought process completely for a theoretical 6.0 new summon with its direction.

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Originally Posted by Ash_

I'm not sure if Alexander would work as a new demi summon... .

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I think Alexander would fit more MCH than SMN lol.

I think Demi summons should just be the 6 elemental Primals of ARR only + Bahamut. Assuming we'll have the first 3, I'm not exactly sure how to add the last 3 without it being problematic...aside from a glamour system for it.

With the current design, they can't truly be unique, so I think they should add more skills to them than just the auto-attack and Enkindle, with different effects. One can have an advantage to single-target damage, the 2nd for AoE and the 3rd for utility, all while not being too far from each other in all categories. There's better, clever ways somebody else can think of to make all of this practical and unqiue.

Referring to a previous thread on this topic, people were wanting the other ARR primals, Shiva, Leviathan, Ramuh as egis each with their own debuff or something, making them into a sort toolbox.

Six egis would probably be a lot, but it'd be more manageable than if there was an egi of every primal on top of who wants ten levels of "You have learned Summon IV, V, VI..." when the level cap is raised?

I had mentioned Phoenix as a demi-primal since there's already an egi model in game they could use (no idea what Phoenix-egi does, T11 runs don't last long enough), that rather than being a big beater like Demi-Bahamut, has lower damage than Demi-Bahamut, but and possibly tied to a trait and/or lengthy enough recast or something, could revive the summoner if they fall in battle like Final Attack+Phoenix in FFVII.

Phoenix-egi simply charges in the direction of a player and then they charge back homing on a target

But it might more possible for SE to implement Phoenix before Alexander as a Demi-primal, that said I don't think the original ARR will be nothjing more than egis, I kinda think that higher primals should be considered as demi-summons.

Unless they want for summons to be galmour only which could be a possibility too if they implement it as a Role function (in the same extension that BRD can play songs).

i didn't read every post, but I do like the idea of Demi-Primals over "more" Egis. But I feel we should at least get the original 6 as Egis and any future Primals can become Demi-Primals. Alexander, Pheonix, and the Triad ore good candidates for Demi-Primals. But yeah, Fix the Egi issue they made and then focus on the glamours and the Demi-Primals

I didn't read most of these responses, but since I made a similar post in a thread very similar to this one, I'll plop it here too:


The most valid reason that SE hasn't pumped out new Egis (Leviathan, Ramuh, Sephirot, etc) is because not only would it become difficult to balance them all without overlapping skillsets, the learning curve on playing the SMN job already is (was, as of 3.58) a bit more challenging than the other jobs, or at least it was perceived that way by the community. To add loads of new Egi would exacerbate that gap; consider that the main rotation of MNK/DRG has mostly stayed almost exactly the same since even 2.0. This would put SMN at a further "disadvantage" when it comes to knowing what to use and when. In 2.x I proposed that they rework it so Garuda is the "ranged physical pet" with contagion removed and Leviathan could be the "caster pet" hitting harder than Ifrit for AoE damage, and Ramuh could be the "defensive party pet" with some sort of refresh or partywide buffs, and Shiva could be the "target vulnerability pet" with contagion, but this line of thinking very quickly falls into exactly that: exacerbation of the skill gap between players, not to mention forcibly making at least some Egi effectively "obsolete".



The Demi idea is at least a little bit of rectification for this, since it only has ONE button and executes its own autoattack based on what you yourself do as the player (vs. the Egi that just have an AI of their own, and not a very great one at that), and only lasts for the 20 seconds. Especially since it is on a time limit, I could definitely see the level 80 skill being Summon Alexander or Summon Midgardsormr or what-have-you, and what you'd do is after every DWT you could summon either Bahamut or the new one, or in a specific order, etc. Perhaps even in 5.0 they could rework the Egi/Faerie system entirely as an overhaul to make the rest of the summons work like this, but we will see what's in store. Who knows, maybe in 5.x they'll let you summon two at once.

Even still, it feels less like what I think of when I think of Final Fantasy summons: Aeons from FFX where it's the summon itself doing the damage and the summoner just kinda chills. Truly SMN feels far less like a DoT class now that you only really cast them once every 2 minutes, but it is undoubtedly still a DoT class at heart, since your stacks rely on dots and your DWT relies on stacks and your Demi relies on DWT.


I think that where the job is right now is the best place it's ever been in. I'm not opposed to new Egi, I just think the above insight is illuminating. This is why I'm a bigger fan of the glamours, particularly if they allowed you to glamour the Egi over the other Egi. With this line of thought, you have a melee Egi a Ranged Egi and a Tank Egi (which could use some reworking to be more useful, to be fair), and then you could glamour whichever sprite over any of them that you wanted without repercussion (So ifrit could spit fire, Garuda could slash like a ninja with her wings, etc). This would be a meaningful balance between "immersion/fantasy" and balance, in my opinion.

If they could make either ifrit or garuda be simply aoe aspected summon while the other the ST one I think it would fix most problems

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Phoenix-egi simply charges in the direction of a player and then they charge back homing on a target

But it might more possible for SE to implement Phoenix before Alexander as a Demi-primal, that said I don't think the original ARR will be nothjing more than egis, I kinda think that higher primals should be considered as demi-summons.

Unless they want for summons to be galmour only which could be a possibility too if they implement it as a Role function (in the same extension that BRD can play songs).

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I agree that Primals should be Egi and Elder Primals should be Demi's, they need to be special and kinda like "ultimate" summons from past FF's.

I definitely think Phoenix would make a great Demi! His Enkindle could be an AoE based fire attack (hits for less damage than Bahamut) but also applies an Auto-Phoenix buff to the party, This Auto-Phoenix could simply just mean each party member gets a free resurrection when they next die. However it would be at extremely low HP, meaning it's only useful if the healers can get their HP back up quick enough before the next hit. This would hopefully prevent Phoenix from being over powered.

I mean, far be it from me of all people to be disgruntled about lore vs implementation of skills, but I think Phoenix wouldn't be a very good choice given its role in FFXIV's story already. That being said if they decided to do it, I wouldn't be disappointed or anything.


Probably sooner would be Midgardsormr, although I guess that's DRG's thing kinda. Or maybe Tiamat will get with the program here or something ;D

When I'd heard about Demi Bahamut I thought to myself it would be neat if Demi Bahamut came from Garuda Egi, Demi Alexander came from Titan Egi, and then something else for Ifrit Egi, maybe Omega I guess but something more "physical" would be more appropriate. Granted, this is before I found out that it only lasts 20 seconds (this was the at the height of the 4.0 skills teaser).

Niether Midgarsormr nor Tiamath can be summoned since they are not primals but just dragons, bahamut is an execption because what we saw is primal bahamut and not real bahamut which was a bit different from what we've seen

I mean sure, but by that logic the ascians could be dicks and turn Tiamat into a primal or midgardsormr if we have some kind of confrontation with them later this xpac that fails utterly

If both of them wants to summon forth a visage of themselves as a primals yes, but it's very unlikely, Ascians do not change you into a primal they simply share you the knowledge on how you can do it besides Tiamat wants to spend the eternity as a captive for her sin so they'll need to create a strange loophole for that to work

That aside since BRD is getting an UI for the songs why not making a real UI for egi-glamours? They could make it that you modify the elemental aether you use so that you can summon egis that use the combinations of elements you want to asborb.
Their skills effects wouldn't change ofc just the animation but imho could be a nice way to actually implemnt the option since frankly the use of commands is kinda meh if you ask me

I mean this is the same kind of "sideshow" lore discussion from the Raise thread that Cyn so accurately pointed out. Tomorrow the Devs could decide to do another server close event where Omega really does decide to destroy the world. I'm just saying we can't rule anything out just because it hasn't happened yet, that's the beauty of the unfolding MMO story. Who knows what they will decide to do with what characters or figures.

Just because Tiamat is currently captive as far as we know doesn't mean in the next patch there won't be a cutscene where we go there to talk to her and the ascians have murdered her and stolen her likeness for a primal, or any number of possible outcomes.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I'm just saying we can't rule anything out just because it hasn't happened yet, that's the beauty of the unfolding MMO story. Who knows what they will decide to do with what characters or figures.

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I very much agree, but to bring it back to Phoenix for a moment...by this very same logic it is entirely plausible to have Phoenix as a new Demi. Being a Primal of resurrection, this trait instantly gives the devs an easy way to implement a Demi that offers something unique via some kind of Auto-Phoenix buff or other trait that allows for resurrection and/or healing.

The problem is that unlike raise summoning a primal has been cementified as a practice in the lore of the game, you don't steal the likeness of someone when a primal is born, the primal assumes the vision of the summoner/s, their ideals, their fantasies, true this doesn't exclude that in the future there cannot be a primal tiamat but at the moment there's no primal midgarsorm nor tiamath and frankly dragons in general are quite bitter about what happened with bahamut


speaking on lore I hope the second lore book will actually explain demi primals better since the game had no explanations and it was something I was looking forward in the quest
I mean the first one had some lore descriptions on skills

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Originally Posted by Remedi

speaking on lore I hope the second lore book will actually explain demi primals better since the game had no explanations and it was something I was looking forward in the quest
I mean the first one had some lore descriptions on skills

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I hope for this too. I was hoping the final SMN quest would have required us to face off against Demi-Bahamut and bind him to our will, very much like the FFXI Cloisters. Instead the ability was kinda just given to us "off-screen" almost...

Hmm I don't want to spoil anything but if you didn't play through the Binding Coil of Bahamut story, then you might not know why Phoenix would in fact be a really (really really) bad choice.


Again sideshow if anything, Tiamat's rage by being unwillingly turned into a primal would make her all the more strong. This is my point exactly, they could do literally anything with any character, we have no idea what they might do. However, my above logic regarding Phoenix still stands; it's "already been used and wrapped up." The other mentions have not.

I suppose you mean sorrow, Bahamut was already born from Tiamat's rage, that said a primal tiamat could be born from other sources, maybe some tribes in meracydia actually worshipped the dusk wyrm as a god and that gave form to primal tiamat, there are plenty of possibilities actually especially since primals can be born accidentally (hi susanoo)

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Hmm I don't want to spoil anything but if you didn't play through the Binding Coil of Bahamut story, then you might not know why Phoenix would in fact be a really (really really) bad choice.


Again sideshow if anything, Tiamat's rage by being unwillingly turned into a primal would make her all the more strong. This is my point exactly, they could do literally anything with any character, we have no idea what they might do. However, my above logic regarding Phoenix still stands; it's "already been used and wrapped up." The other mentions have not.

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No worries I completed all of the Coils of Bahamut, and have encountered Phoenix. However although I understand your initial reasoning, to now uphold them would be a contradiction that there's no telling where an unfolding MMO's story will go. Phoenix can return at any point if the devs wish it so, and not to spoil anything but I assume you don't know much of what happens in Ultimate Coil of Bahamut?

I mean yes but it was like a BIG caveat of the 2.X story... that's why the title is called "The Final Witness" in the first place.


You're not wrong, but like I said it's VERY "wrapped up" as far as I'm concerned. Meanwhile Tiamat was barely touched on (and is still alive and miserable, for that matter). See what I mean?

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I mean yes but it was like a BIG caveat of the 2.X story... that's why the title is called "The Final Witness".


You're not wrong, but like I said it's VERY "wrapped up" as far as I'm concerned. Meanwhile Tiamat was barely touched on (and is still alive and miserable, for that matter). See what I mean?

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It's true in the original Coil story it does very much seem wrapped up. However all I can say to that is turn your gaze to Ultimate Coil and things might not seem so carved in stone.

I'm not sure there's really any more need to discuss this; Unending coil is "the minstrel's hyperbole" just like the rest of the minstrel's ballads. It's a "epic reimagining" of events that "actually happened" but do not themselves happen. This is true for ALL of his "songs".


Again like we both said they could do anything they want but I think we can agree that Phoenix is MUCH more wrapped up than just about any other potential candidate.

Ultimate coil never happened tbh

However It's worth mentioning that they said that different cultures might have different versions of certain beliefs and as such primals with the same name might work and manifest in different forms (the 2 anantas tribes for example) when they made this point they also talked about phoenix or ifrit for example.
Considering we are getting Suzaku soon we might have something about it since usually the vermillion bird is depitched as a phoenix

That's a fair point, I've mostly been coming at this from a game play/content angle. Story wise I agree it's more wrapped up than other Primals. I guess in terms of pure lore you can argue that Phoenix and Demi-Phoenix are not one and the same, just like the Egi and the Primals are not one and the same. To be able to summon an Egi of a specific Primal all a Summoner has to do is attune to that Primal's aether. You could argue this attunement was already achieved during the Coil events, or like when the Summoner tries to call forth Ramuh Egi, we go to where it's remnant aether is most potent.

So for me it seems there's already things in place to give Phoenix to SMN without bringing him back into the main story anyways.