SE when are you going to add new PVP actions?

There was talk about this and I would really like this to happen, I find most classes are so limited in abilities it really has taken the 'fun' out of pvp for me (I was never for or against the PVP changes in stormblood).
Just a few examples I miss; Tar pit, Push back, Wither this doesn't mean I want to see more CC but I would like to see more choices.
I can't even play DRK which I loved before stormblood (even though it had many issues) because everytime I use souleater combo I feel like im banging my head against a wall because it is that boring! Bring back choice! Either souleater heals or use Delirium.

To facilitate this: Return Sprint as a universal action. The size and scale of maps, as well as the general strategies players commonly utilize do not lend well to having sprinting as an optional ability. That effectively frees up a PvP action slot for other skills.

Yes! Sprint should not be an either/or option.

I miss bard and machinist's ability to restore MP/TP. I feel helpless when the healer says their MP is at 1% and there's nothing I can do. Let us support our teammates the way we were meant to!

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

To facilitate this: Return Sprint as a universal action. The size and scale of maps, as well as the general strategies players commonly utilize do not lend well to having sprinting as an optional ability. That effectively frees up a PvP action slot for other skills.

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They probably should. Does anyone NOT take sprint? It's way too important.

Then again, I also don't think tanks should be allowed to take Recuperate, but that's just me.

ugh if healers get sprint they will be even more unkillable no this is a bad idea

I actually think they should fix some pvp actions that are in the skill list.
Pvp actions that become big necessities could be moved into the toolkit of the player (so for example all healers having muse as a default)

Also, additional actions and traits are the same on every job but are useless, like Enliven on healers/Casters(not counting RDM) could be replaced with something else for roles that do not use MP/TP[I]
https://imgur.com/acLQ1Mt.png

For example they could put the removed skill "Deorbit" there in place of Enliven for healers.
(note deorbit is just an example I really hate deorbit and couldn't think of anything at the time)

I'd like to again point out that PvP skills were far more tailored to the jobs/roles back in 3.x PvP. And the counter to sprinting healers was of course, cc, which I still say every job should have some form of, just like they did before. A large reason melees don't do so well currently, aside from differences of player skill, is the sudden removal of cc skills from all but Ninja. I'm not sure why anyone felt it necessary to both change how cc skills worked (via immediate resistance after the effect wears off), then just remove them from some jobs altogether anyways, but it's done more harm than good.

Player base: we want more skills

SE: maybe take away 1-2 skills and limited every job to 7 buttons to push

Next season will see changes?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

And the counter to sprinting healers was of course, cc, which I still say every job should have some form of, just like they did before.

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The "counter" to everything is CC, because CC prevents you from acting to various degrees.

Nitpick rant:

And the irony is that it doesn't actually counter anything - Counters are only effective if the enemy is doing the action you intend to counter, because it is a response to an action by definition. A counter-attack is only effective if the enemy strikes you in the first place, otherwise it does nothing. You cannot counter a blow that hasn't been made. And CC is not a response to anything, it simply shuts down action proactively.

The closest thing to a sprint counter you had in the old system was Weapon Throw - First a melee ability, then a tank ability. It would have been a true counter if it had been a guaranteed slow if a sprint effect was removed and not at all otherwise. That's what a counter typically does - You use an action of an enemy to your advantage, in this case you'd use the fact the enemy boosted his speed to your advantage by turning it into a slow, something you couldn't have done if he hadn't sprinted in the first place. And that would be a retroactive counter that doesn't leave the enemy any choice. More common in games are proactive counters that do leave the enemy a choice.

A typical healing counter would be a debuff that causes all incoming healing to damage the person instead for a brief while. Divinity calls it "Decaying Touch". A classic movement counter is the Ultimate of Bloodseeker from DotA - Rupture. It deals damage to you based on the distance you travel while it's active. And a classic burst counter is a skill that blocks all damage and diverts it back to the attacker for a brief while. Or take WoW - Unstable Affliction, a dispel counter DoT that deals damage to and silences the one who happens to dispel it.

Counters often end up leaving you in lose-lose situations in team games, because even though you can commonly identify the counter and simply not do the action it counters for the duration, that can leave you in just as bad a position as if you had done it. CC is a lot more upfront and honest about that - It doesn't even give you that choice.

Similarly, the power of CC directly derives from the actions it prevents, while the power of counters can be independent of that. For example, you can devise a debuff that lasts two hours, persists through death and will instantly cause the player's team to lose should the afflicted player change his shoes. That's a powerful, game-winning counter to changing shoes, but which shoes you wear is absolutely irrelevant to the outcome of the game. The counter is extremely powerful but the action it counters is wholly powerless. On the other hand, a CC that prevents you from changing your shoes is simply useless, because which shoes you wear doesn't matter so the fact you can't change them does neither.

CC thus can be used to approximate power - The more valuable a CC, the more powerful the action it prevents. And I'd be wary of everything that unconditionally requires CC to be dealt with, because there is a mighty good chance you're simply dealing with something broken. Movement is not among that - Gap closers are a thing.

That aside, honestly, the additional skills are generally underwhelming. Even if you were to add Bolt to everyone, what else would you pick? It's 2 out of 7 right now, 2 out of 6 then and you can safely ignore Enliven/Muse depending on your job because few of them use both, TP and Mana, so you can detract another one right there, completely disregarding that Enliven is underwhelming all by itself.

A better start here would be introducing more job actions, which SE seems to be averse to. I can understand why 3 and a half hotbars might be a bit much, but 11 skills are IMO a bit too few if the skills are all generic point&click. In MOBAs, skillshots are a common thing and a dimension of mastery that's nigh on missing entirely here, which has to be compensated 'somehow', if only with more skills.

11 is too few, but the same kit we use everywhere, including PvP once before is apparently "too many".

As for counterplay, it's important to note that nothing is guaranteed. It wasn't even back then. But the more we see these threads pop up, the more the old system really is validated by the deficiencies of this new one. Imagine if instead of Enliven arbitrarily being available to healers, something like Sacred Prism or Retrogradiation was instead? Or if tanks got Push Back once more? Imagine melees got Weapon Throw once more? How much would Weapon Throw help the struggling, cc-less melees now? That's really what needs to be looked at. The old system actually considered each job's individuality and what would be most useful to them for PvP actions (for the most part. There were a few mulligans).

Thx MCH have a lot of CC and is still a DD ^^ (3 CC to be exact, which is a lot in this mode).

I think it could be a good idea for DRG to at least have "Heavy" on their 60sec CD skill "Skewer", that would have sense in their kit imo after jumping on someone without completely stoping them either.

Any other suggestions about what could be added to every classes? I just feel some details could be done, and even just 1 or 2 more skills to all could be a thing.

Also, for MNK, a 2sec or 3sec silence on their 1rst or 2nd dash could be nice, it's almost instant animation, and it could help them a lot (and the way it hits could explain the person has its breath stoped). They are imo awesome healers-counter due to their very high burst and a silence could really help to underline that fact. Also it would help them to set up a bit better against range when dashing on them the 1rst time.

So imo :

DRG : 1) 6sec Heavy effect on Skewer (60sec CD) or 3sec Heavy effect on Skewer and makes the heal nerf of -20% instead of just 10% it's way not enough imo :/
2) Dragon Sight blocks the next CC for you and your linked ally (one each).
3) Getting a kill would add 5sec to our Blood of the Dragon/Life of the Dragon bonus
Note : I don't feel like the DRG needs any more actions directly.

MNK : 1) 2 or 3sec silence on their 1rst dash (reason above, mainly anti-healer + giving some hope vs range) (30sec CD).
2) When Riddle of Earth proc, provides one Greased Lightning stack and one Chakra stack. That would help to speed up things a bit.
3) I guess no escaping tool is made on purpose, but it would be great to get one other than dashing on a harmless target (and if we still have dashes and a target :/ ) Maybe using Riddle of Wind able to target allies would be nice (so the 2nd dash only).

SAM : I don't know them enough to know what they would need, and I think they are fine how they are, so I prefer to let someone else talk about their case. Having Sprint for free would certainly be enough already to let them get the TP pvp skill instead or one more defensive pvp skill.

NIN : Obviously don't need anything about more CC or mobility.

BLM : Maybe make their Aetherial Manipulation move usable during roots.

I'm not sure what these abilties would add.

Weapon Throw would just mean it would be impossible to escape a bad fight, although it would nerf ranged physical some.

Sacred Soil is just more healing and mitigation.

You could give everyone a stun and silence, but it would just raise deaths mostly. It would bring healers down, but then DPS wouldn't be able to back and forth any, making healers even more powerful; stun + burst is dead.

More OGCD actions for DPS would buff their burst.

It depends what you want pvp to be. I think more actions would kind of make it "blink and your dead" a lot more.

Stop complain. Play with what you got.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I'm not sure what these abilties would add.

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DEPTH. You know, like it used to have.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Weapon Throw would just mean it would be impossible to escape a bad fight, although it would nerf ranged physical some.

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Stuns, knockbacks, Sleep, binds, Heavy. . . Can't hit what they can't catch. As a last ditch effort, you can literally just unleash on them. I'd sent many a tank or overconfident melee running from me before. Also Purify and SPRINT, if the Weapon Throw didn't remove it.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Sacred Soil is just more healing and mitigation.

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If they're allowed to stand in it. So many ways to handle that I'd have to make a separate post. . .

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You could give everyone a stun and silence, but it would just raise deaths mostly. It would bring healers down, but then DPS wouldn't be able to back and forth any, making healers even more powerful; stun + burst is dead.

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People weren't invincible before. Stun + burst was the gospel of the melee back then. And look how they're doing these days without it? It wouldn't make healers more powerful, it would make countering burst or healing through/mitigating it more important, all of which is a shared team responsibility.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

More OGCD actions for DPS would buff their burst

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Press F to pay respects to the MCH burst. Guess who doesn't really have any oGCDs and is considered the worst ranged in the Feast?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It depends what you want pvp to be. I think more actions would kind of make it "blink and your dead" a lot more.

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As opposed to 6v1, DPS-Healer, in the healer's favor? Again, effective cc and burst was the name of the game back then, and yet there were healers that could handle it just fine.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I'm not sure what these abilties would add.

Weapon Throw would just mean it would be impossible to escape a bad fight, although it would nerf ranged physical some.

Sacred Soil is just more healing and mitigation.

You could give everyone a stun and silence, but it would just raise deaths mostly. It would bring healers down, but then DPS wouldn't be able to back and forth any, making healers even more powerful; stun + burst is dead.

More OGCD actions for DPS would buff their burst.

It depends what you want pvp to be. I think more actions would kind of make it "blink and your dead" a lot more.

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you can have 1 button or 40, if you suck, you suck, git gud.

I am not arguing every point. If you want more CC, you want a pvp that's a lot less forgiving of mistakes, and will lead to more player depths and much more zerging. If you're ok with that, cool. Just when you suggest stuff, don't just do it on nostalgia; have a clear idea about how you want pvp to be in all aspects, and then build movesets from there.

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Originally Posted by Mirch

Stop complain. Play with what you got.

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In a way I agree, but in another, I could tell you then to shut down the forum and any suggestion topic of all games in the world.
That's a funny way to say you disagree, but that's overall stupid to say on a forum.

In game, when someone complains, yea it makes sense as we have to do with what we've got, because we have no choice anyway, but yea, it's a forum here.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I am not arguing every point. If you want more CC, you want a pvp that's a lot less forgiving of mistakes, and will lead to more player depths and much more zerging. If you're ok with that, cool. Just when you suggest stuff, don't just do it on nostalgia; have a clear idea about how you want pvp to be in all aspects, and then build movesets from there.

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Your mistaking my experience for nostalgia again. Please don't.

It's also important to note, the PvP system we have now is less forgiving of mistakes because players don't have the wholly familar tools/skills of their job from PvE or cc skills to utilize as a means of counterplay, thus it's even easier to zerg now. It's easier because there's fewer skills to counter an advance with, even a weak one. Not to mention the continued, general lack of understanding of jobs even reduced to 9 buttons.

I again contend that there were plenty of skilled, even exceptional players in the system we had before that you consider so "less forgiving of mistakes". They were either good enough to not make those mistakes, or adaptable enough with the tools they had to minimize the effects of said mistake. That's not nearly as possible now with this system we have.

I feel like not existing at all, am I real? :p

Can I have any opinion about my suggestions?
1) Giving DRG's Skewer a Heavy effect (for 3 or 6sec)
2) Giving MNK's 1rst dash a Silence effect (for 2 or 3sec)

(it's mainly what I think about even if I wrote a bit more in my message above).

I don't think you want silence on a dash, since its the first move you use to gap close. You want it on an OGCD to use in bursts. I don't think heavy helps, it should only be a sprint cancel. In general you tend to fight around objectives as it is, and its nice to be able to flee rather than every fight be one to the death.

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It's also important to note, the PvP system we have now is less forgiving of mistakes because players don't have the wholly familar tools/skills of their job from PvE or cc skills to utilize as a means of counterplay, thus it's even easier to zerg now. It's easier because there's fewer skills to counter an advance with, even a weak one. Not to mention the continued, general lack of understanding of jobs even reduced to 9 buttons.

I again contend that there were plenty of skilled, even exceptional players in the system we had before that you consider so "less forgiving of mistakes". They were either good enough to not make those mistakes, or adaptable enough with the tools they had to minimize the effects of said mistake. That's not nearly as possible now with this system we have.

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There wasn't much in the way of realistic counterplay to getting stunned. You had purify, that was it. What CC did was make it so that you had to commit to every attack because you couldn't escape, and if you got caught out of position, you often couldn't act at all. Feast it didn't matter, but fronlines it did.

Ah, Fannah, Skewer already lowers attack and healing potency by 10%. If they wanted they could simply add Weapon Throw's Heavy onto Spineshatter Dive (since the stun from that was removed).

And Monk's now removed Arm of the Destroyer was a silence before. Maybe Somersault can become that silence? It would remind me of the old Axe Kick giving a pacification debuff.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

There wasn't much in the way of realistic counterplay to getting stunned. You had purify, that was it. What CC did was make it so that you had to commit to every attack because you couldn't escape, and if you got caught out of position, you often couldn't act at all. Feast it didn't matter, but fronlines it did.

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Once again, that's not quite right, Riyah. You had a better chance of surviving cc in Frontlines than the Feast - where damage was a lot more coordinated and focused. As for counterplay for getting stunned, you've seen the videos. Melees OPENED with stun and that didn't stop me. Putting personal capabilities aside for a moment, yes, you were supposed to commit to every attack. Who attacks without the intent to take down the target? Sure, there's feints and attacks just to distract or irritate someone, but when it came to bursting, you did it with the intent to eliminate your target. CC was a viable tool in either making it happen, OR preventing it from happening. Getting caught out of position happens, I'm notorious for doing that myself. But it's part of strategy to put your opponent in a disadvantageous situation.

Attempts to perhaps try to reduce that have only created bigger issues, and this is why people want to see more skills returned. We want to be able to exercise good strategy instead of simply pushing our 9 buttons faster than the other guy. We want that depth that rewards skill back.

Thank you both for your answer^^

About Silence for Monks (on their dash) :
Think of it as a whole in the kit. As a Monk, once you have all your Chakra and Greased Lightning stacks, it can happen you want to be able to just dash on your target and use all your burst while blocking all possible counters from their oGCD i.e opponent's heal/shield/knockback/root/heavy/stun/silence/sprint/safeguard/backflip to leave you, so everything that can prevent you from doing what you have to (your target allies can still come to protect their friend by stunning you, Holmgang you etc).
So yes, I would like a silence on a dash for them unlike what you seem to think. It's not a hard CC as in the PvE version of it and it has sense in their bursting kit.
With a Ninja, it would be awesome, the Monk's dash would be like a signal (with a burst macro before to help), so the Ninja Shukuchi instantly on the healer (thx macro again), they both do what they have to to burst him, the Ninja stuns with Bhavacackra as the end of the silence, and it's done.

You can also just use it at melee if you want (you don't have to always engage with their gap closer). And as I said earlier, it can also be put on the 2nd dash, so you can keep it to just use it the moment you need. I am looking for a solution adding tools with some sense without adding skills. "The Forbidden Chakra" could also be a good skill giving Silence while making sense (it's one of the main skill you use to burst).
If you want to add a skill, we can also think of One Ilm Punch that would just Silence instead of Stun (+ by passing the Silence resistance like in PvE? haha).


About Heavy on DRG's Skewer (don't worry, I know it lowers dmg and heals from the target :3 ) :
Ah yes, on Spineshatter Dive it would also be a good idea :) Both could be nice, it's just that I feel like the 60sec CD of Skewer would be more fair than the 15sec Spineshatter Dive CD.

For Riyah, canceling a Sprint can't happen if the enemy doesn't Sprint, and then can use Sprint right after. Especially that it's an optionnal move for some classes. Maybe blocking the possibility to use any PvP skill (so Sprint/Safeguard/Enliven etc) would be better than just "Cancel Sprint if you already used it" which is way too niche. The new pvp system want to still get rid of small niche details.
And Skewer can't be used in a way you keep it until the enemy uses his dash, its base function is not to do that, it's more to lower what an opponent can do (dmg and heal) and help the burst (by lowering heals + inflict dmg), so Heavy would also prevent him from running too much and forces the fight a bit.

Fannah, the thing is though you don't want to have to choose between using a move as a gap closer and using it as a silence. This is kind of what forced all CC moves into doing no damage; moves like leg sweep and fluid aura used to do damage as well, so people often used them for damage first, screwing up stun resistances. Also, I really am not a fan of "totally kill an enemies movement." We need it for mounts since they can outrun players easily, but excessive heavy means you want players to die and home point whenever there's an imbalance.That will make players a lot more wary of engagements and trust more in numbers.

I actually think we'd be really good if they just lowered healing potency. I mean, the fights aren't all that bad as it is, its just healer sustain that screws it up.

It's worth noting that it's always been a rule in Frontlines that if you're hit riding a mount, you'll get a heavy debuff. They renamed it "Limp" in 4.0. So you don't need to actually use a heavy on a player trying to ride past/away. Just attack them.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Fannah, the thing is though you don't want to have to choose between using a move as a gap closer and using it as a silence.

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You maybe don't realize it but it's not really nice to speak with you : "you don't want to choose". You say things that are not true like they were.
Following you, you believe SE's team didn't want to choose between highly damaging and controlling for 2 sec when they made Ninja's Bhavacakra inflicting 2500 dmg and a 2 sec stun.
Same for Wind tackle in PvE which has a stun. And I just ask to add a silence instead because it makes sense in their kit imo. I doubt SE did gave a stun to their gap closer because SE "didn't want to choose between" like if they were lazy.

It's just game design, in order to make a whole system working. I even explained you the purpose of it, while taking in count SE prefer to don't add any new skill. I even told you we could add a new skill to silence thx to One Ilm Punch, but you seemed to forgot it, it's not like I didn't talk about other ways as a narrow minded person.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Also, I really am not a fan of "totally kill an enemies movement."

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Well, it's just a Silence, not even a Stun, the enemy can still run. Ninjas have silence/stun/heavy/root (and just have to choose between heavy or root on top of the two others).

Btw, it's just a 500 dmg move, I believe it's mainly a gap closer than a damaging tool, even if both dash make a total of 1000, which is significant when in need of burst.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I actually think we'd be really good if they just lowered healing potency. I mean, the fights aren't all that bad as it is, its just healer sustain that screws it up.

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Egh, it's just the obvious start.

There are several other issues buried underneath that Elephant in the room and not just balancing ones. The fight design is shallow, there are very few "if"s in the equation and fights quickly become little more than a throughput race, which would become a lot more obvious if healers didn't make everything other than burst useless. And CC isn't a solution to that, because CC only sets the enemy back in the race - The track still doesn't have any curves.

CC is a decent enough punishment for making a mistake to allow for follow-up - every fighting game lets you stagger after taking a hit - but imagine a fighting game in which staggering, dodging, blocking and countering aren't a thing. That's what this game is like - if the enemy is in range, most of your skills will have their full effect regardless of what the enemy does, CC included. In the fighting game analogy, some characters would simply be able to disable your punches/kicks/jumps/grapples/counters or whatever. And you don't even need to aim them either. It's shallow, skills simply don't have much conditionals attached. "If cliff, then knockback" is already advanced in this game.

So yeah, it's simply true that the game lacks depth. Adding CC just isn't going to give it more, adding CC just makes it easier to deal with existing imbalances. Even a fat cripple can win a race against a professional athlete if you tie the latter up after all, in spite of the latter vastly outperforming the prior. That's CC for you.

I'm not sure the analogy with fighting games works for me.

Like, they really only became big because the depth from systems was shallow. SF 2 and MK 2 were about as good as they got in terms of balance and accessibility through the core systems. They started to improve on that by making them deeper, richer experience, but ironically the deeper the game, the worse it kind of got. If you picked maybe the two best fighting games after, SF3 Third Strike and Virtua Fighter 3, you have these really rich and deep systems that sort of failed to attract a core mass of semi-skilled players. Many games that came after only managed to get a decent audience due to other reasons; Soul Calibur was graphics and guest characters. Even now, most of the activity in fighting games wound up being really shallow flashy Naruto and DBZ fighters. Richer ones like Guilty Gear or Blazblue still end up niche for skilled people, except for when GG Xrd turned the graphics up to amazing levels.

So i mean yeah, you can try and make pvp more deep in that sense, but fighting games showed me that it tends to be hard to do, because its very easy to make these really rich systems full of play and counter play that just shut everyone else but the top players out. If you think the average player is bad now, it has nothing compared to the average game player of something like Soul Calibur or Tekken. They'd get owned just by wakeup games, and have issues getting summon suffering off reliably.

Problem is that if combo game is too hard to learn ppl quit fast because they are too lazy learn these comboes. I have Tekken 7 myself and I personally quit that game because I was too lazy learn all these stable comboes etc. It all depends how much you wanna spend time on the game. Like if you wanna play casually I really liked lot One Piece Burning Blood because comboes are lot easier execute and game is more centered around neutral game than combo game. Blade And Soul pvp system is really good as well, but take months for me learn that game properly at the point I could enjoy the game. Playing against summoners with blade master was really frustrating first half year. In this game it is more likely how you position yourself around the map and when you coordinate your burst and cc together. If healers would be weaker, it would only mean you would need less coordination and game would be even more braindead button smashing.

Again, I have to say the old system was neither hard to learn, nor understand. The problem is, people didn't want to. Gearing for PvP wasn't hard: if you still had anything from a previous gear tier, then put on what had the secondary skills you wanted, and maybe a fending accessory for a little more HP. Too many buttons? Learn the ones that are most effective to reduce enemy HP in a short window and use them. They were the same buttons and largely did the same thing they did in PvE. PvP skills? Read them, find what works best for the situation, and use them effectively, again, just like in PvE.

People weren't attracted to PvP because of how watered down it was to PvE. We were attracted by the challenge and ability to use our same skillsets in a more dynamic environment, against other players and not simplified programmed patterns.

cool, then lets go back to a system no one wanted to learn then. That's a great idea.

As opposed to an unbalanced, 9 button system that people still can't get right? Sure. Maybe this time they'll figure out how good it was. As for participation, it's effectively impossible to get rid of XP in PvP, so that'll keep people drawn to it. Melees will certainly enjoy it, perhaps tanks too. Possibly even healers, with their full kits and proper balancing. . .

. . .I'm sorry, where was the downside you were trying to hint at?

I remember myself to be highly disappointed by playing fighting games online when I realized everyone was doing the same combos according to the character, because getting all made combo videos on internet became something usual. But I accepted it (to better counter them as "they are all the same anyway" which worked for the major part of low ranked).

And the thing is no one did combo videos of how to duel in FFXIV (I found none, only videos on dummies for PvE).

I might do it, I'm pretty sure of what I do on Machinist/Bard/Dragoon/Monk (and I even created the optimized combo for Bard with macros, ending with only 4 button to use (the 4rth being for using Pitch Perfect at the right moment) Maybe that would help some if we give them what to do with some other tips beside. I know a bit about Ninja and Samurai too (but I don't feel like doing a whole Ninja/Samurai tips part other than their basic 19k-20k combo -> what is needed to kill a dps using safeguard+recuperate in duel).

The only thing is that I don't feel comfortable with editing videos, and also telling everyone how to do x) but well why not after all. But the game is not deep enough to get some very special tricks hard to master after giving them all (except knowing how to play with movement delay I guess).

I wouldn't call it much of a burst, but doing a little practice one day, I found the most potent MCH "burst" for PvP.

It's horribly impractical though, and would require someone standing still for all 5 ticks of Flamethrower, which no one would. . . nvm, I've seen that happen, actually.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I wouldn't call it much of a burst, but doing a little practice one day, I found the most potent MCH "burst" for PvP.

It's horribly impractical though, and would require someone standing still for all 5 ticks of Flamethrower, which no one would. . . nvm, I've seen that happen, actually.

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I have seen some ppl use holmgang same time than flamethrower, it is pretty deadly.

Lol, Stun Gun and Flamethrower are my usual answers to that WAR that tries to be a hero and Holmgang me :P

Even before Flamethrower, MCH had (and still has) the best burst of all. It's the only ones that can kill someone in technically 7sec.
3 bullets already ready + Gauss Cannon on :
Wildfire
Stun Gun
GCD
Between the eyes
GCD
Knockback
GCD
Quick Reload
GCD
Quick Reload
GCD
(repeat Quick reload until no TP left)
Wildfire dmg usually means death vs DPS classes, and if not, just running with some basic attacks will do.

Wildfire lasts 7sec, so it's easy to know it was only 7sec needed :p No other class can kill someone in less than 7sec, so MCH combo burst is the highest.
But if it's about a instant burst, I guess Monks are the best with maybe Ninjas (especially that Ninjas have CC to make it way more uncounterable).

MCH is by far one of the best class to capture enemy bases in Frontlines (best 1v1 combo to kill quickly + CC to run away + is range so can hit people running to them on mount to slow them enough + can knockback and kill once on the cliff). Only healers and DRK are a problem but mainly are with teams and not base guardians. PLD and WAR are longer to kill and they can also tank until allies come. But if they remains alone, no way they can win to a MCH kiting them (I don't count duels with melee DPS having their LB to use, of course, and thx we still have knockback to counter it if we still have it).

I mainly use Flamethrower for when I hit crystals and don't want to use anything like bullets and TP, and of course during Holmgang too or Paladin's invincibility (I never tried that last one as it never happened to me to need it, but I believe it to work well in this situation.

Btw, the whole Flamethrower move inflicts 10k dmg (DoT + normal hits of it). Just need to use it on a dummy (the pvp ones have 10k HP) and it exactly destroy them with one Flamethrower -> so 10k in 5sec for no ressources in AoE.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

cool, then lets go back to a system no one wanted to learn then. That's a great idea.

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Um.... we have 9 buttons and people don't want to learn. PvE people do PvP for tomes and mounts. PvP people do it for the challenge. All you have to do is show up and hope your team wins to get the reward. I play PvP for the challenge on how good i am against my peers but due to the limited abilities, some match-ups are just completely imbalanced. I could take down any class as a ninja in 3.x. But 1v1 any ranged class and I am dead.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

As for participation, it's effectively impossible to get rid of XP in PvP, so that'll keep people drawn to it.

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EXP doesn't even matter, most serious players have capped their mains, or even all their jobs by now. All exp did was let people try other jobs instead of sticking to their capped ones. And pvp exp is a joke, you're literally better not doing it and waiting for a dungeon to pop than do two 20 min matches even at winning exp levels; you get the same exp or so just by doing your hunts for the day. The only reason it mattered was because it was unnerfed at launch and dps queues were that bad. It's arguably not even worth doing for tomes now that RW doesn't get the once a day tome bonus.

As for it not working, lol, HW pvp didn't work any better. You keep saying stuff, but its just pure nostalgia; Feast was just as underplayed then, Shatter and Seize died just as hard when people didn't do them for relic or tomes, and everyone complained as much then as now.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

EXP doesn't even matter, most serious players have capped their mains, or even all their jobs by now. All exp did was let people try other jobs instead of sticking to their capped ones. And pvp exp is a joke, you're literally better not doing it and waiting for a dungeon to pop than do two 20 min matches even at winning exp levels; you get the same exp or so just by doing your hunts for the day. The only reason it mattered was because it was unnerfed at launch and dps queues were that bad. It's arguably not even worth doing for tomes now that RW doesn't get the once a day tome bonus.

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Enjoyment... Its not about efficiency but about enjoyment. All of 3.5 I capped my tomes through PvP and didn't bother to step foot in a dungeon besides the first time I was there. I farmed light in PvP even though it wasn't the most efficient route. Most serious PvP people will do it because they enjoy it.

I just do PvP to level jobs I never touched. EXP is a strong pull factor. I don't particularly think this game's PvP is good, but I'd still rather do it than a dungeon. So you can't discount it completely.