Semi-dumb question about OT

Okay, I'm still leveling my Pally, and I'm currently 65. I have played MMORPG's for a while, but never before played Tank. I'm enjoying it, but I have some questions about being an Off-Tank:

I understand that my job as OT is to pick up the adds. But what about when there are no adds? Am I then essentially DPS? Should I switch into Sword Oath to maximize the damage? Is there any benefit to having me remaining in Shield Oath so I can at least be second on the enmity list?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mantu

Okay, I'm still leveling my Pally, and I'm currently 65. I have played MMORPG's for a while, but never before played Tank. I'm enjoying it, but I have some questions about being an Off-Tank:

I understand that my job as OT is to pick up the adds. But what about when there are no adds? Am I then essentially DPS? Should I switch into Sword Oath to maximize the damage? Is there any benefit to having me remaining in Shield Oath so I can at least be second on the enmity list?

---

There's rarely any reason for the offtank to be in tankstance while not grabbing adds or the like.

I can think of perhaps one case: The Emanation (Extreme), where the boss will throw out extremely powerful cone attacks at the second in the threat list, and you want those directed at the offtank.

At all other times, you focus on DPS'ing. If the boss doesn't have tankswap mechanics, it's preferred that you use Provoke, then Shirk, whenever Shirk is off cooldown.

When OTing and there are no adds currently present, you will focus on doing as much damage as possible with a bit of party support thrown in when needed. That means that you should be in Sword Oath/Deliverance/Out of Grit. Staying in your tanks stance as OT does nothing to help and just lessens the damage you do as well as causes you to build aggro way more quickly which can result in accidentally taking hate from the MT since many MTs try to do as few aggro combos as possible to push more dps themselves and they may be stance-dancing or switching to dps stance themselves for parts of, if not most of, the fight.

You don't really have to worry about being second in the hate list as OT since Provoke will automatically put you at the top of the hate list when you use it, so if you need to do a tank swap or the MT dies and you need to pick up the boss just swap to tank stance, use Provoke and immediately follow up with some aggro generators (shield lob/tomahawk/unmend as you close on the boss if not in melee range and a couple aggro combos) to establish a good aggro lead.

Also, since you don't need to worry about having an aggro lead as OT, don't waste time using your aggro combo on the boss and focus on your dps rotations and abilities.

A more "advanced" aggro management technique to use when there are multiple tanks is to Provoke the boss from the MT and then immediately use Shirk on the MT to send 25% of your aggro back to the MT, placing them back at the top of the aggro/hate list and the focus of the boss again but with a bigger aggro lead than before. Doing this throughout a fight allows the OT to generate a large amount of aggro for the MT which allows them to not have to use their aggro combos as much or not at all which results in them being able to do more damage.

Also, when doing a tank swap it is a good idea to use Shirk on the tank that just used Provoke and is now tanking the boss. This gives them an immediate aggro lead and helps them get right into their dps rotations.

Thanks to both of you! Good, helpful answers. I do prefer MT, but I want to know what to do as OT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mantu

Okay, I'm still leveling my Pally, and I'm currently 65. I have played MMORPG's for a while, but never before played Tank. I'm enjoying it, but I have some questions about being an Off-Tank:

I understand that my job as OT is to pick up the adds. But what about when there are no adds? Am I then essentially DPS? Should I switch into Sword Oath to maximize the damage? Is there any benefit to having me remaining in Shield Oath so I can at least be second on the enmity list?

---

It would really depend on the type of battle.

Example;

If there are phases were adds pop yes you need to change stance and get them.

If there are debuffs or tank buster moves were you need to swap with tank as main you have to be ready. (Exdeath for example)

There are certain moves or actions that only OT can handle. Such as certain meteor spots were OT can only survive.


As a PLD, I sometimes help heal healers who are in low hp or cover MT if I feel it is 100% necessary. Specially those who don't know about Shirk and how it works when swapping.

OT is not bad you just have to know when and how to react to certain situations. Now if you completely out DMG the main tank and take enmity from it without even trying call it out. Communication can help sometimes.

The best thing you can do is watch a video before doing any 8-man fight.They'll tell you if there are adds spawning, or just handling of mechanics. so yeah, just assume sword stance otherwise.

Yes, when not actively tanking you should be in your dps stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I can think of perhaps one case: The Emanation (Extreme), where the boss will throw out extremely powerful cone attacks at the second in the threat list, and you want those directed at the offtank.

At all other times, you focus on DPS'ing. If the boss doesn't have tankswap mechanics, it's preferred that you use Provoke, then Shirk, whenever Shirk is off cooldown.

---

This is confusing. Even in this case you should not be in tank stance as an off tank. You should provoke and shirk your main tank and if needed use your aggro combo to adjust your spot on the enmity list.

Even better, do a circle shirk to boost overall enmity, give both tanks a large lead on enmity, and avoid needing to use your aggro combo entirely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Yes, when not actively tanking you should be in your dps stance.



This is confusing. Even in this case you should not be in tank stance as an off tank. You should provoke and shirk your main tank and if needed use your aggro combo to adjust your spot on the enmity list.

Even better, do a circle shirk to boost overall enmity, give both tanks a large lead on enmity, and avoid needing to use your aggro combo entirely.

---

Maybe you have better luck with getting people to do things like that than I do, but I just don't trust other people to do their jobs beyond a tankswap. Sometimes the DPS has such a close lead on the maintank, that after a shirk, I will be in third place, so if I have to, I will jump into tankstance for some aggro builders to push myself to second place.

Is it an ideal situation? Not really. But I'll still do it.

There's very few instances you should be concerned about being in 2nd place. If you're optimizing your DPS, unless you're on WAR you likely won't be second in the enmity list. It's normal not to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Maybe you have better luck with getting people to do things like that than I do, but I just don't trust other people to do their jobs beyond a tankswap. Sometimes the DPS has such a close lead on the maintank, that after a shirk, I will be in third place, so if I have to, I will jump into tankstance for some aggro builders to push myself to second place.

Is it an ideal situation? Not really. But I'll still do it.

---

I usually find people are amenable to doing things if asked. Usually the ones that aren't don't clear anyway.

Warrior and Paladins will want to use abilities that have enmity modifiers even when off tanking to be able to do damage, so this can lead to a situation where they slowly creep up on the main tank's enmity throughout the fight. Shirk helps, provoke -> shirk even more, and it places you second on the enmity list.

As an off tank you should always be ready to take the reins, but if the main tank needs to use an extra Power Slash/Butcher's Block/Rage of Halone due to your excess creeping, that's lost overall damage and even possibly lost resources that could have been used for defense. Stormblood has made enmity a very manageable group effort.

Many, many fights in this game have the off tank purely acting as another DPS. And, if you play your cards right you may even beat out many DPS in damage.

Even as MT you don't stay the whole time in Tank-Stance.

One thing that needs to be said is that on FFXIV DPS is king, in the harder fights (Savage, Extreme Primals) a tank who can maximize his damage by staying for as long as possible out of tank stance can (and often will) be the difference between a clear and an enrage, so yeah if you are not tanking you should be on Sword Oath and even if you are tanking you should also be often on Sword Oath as well, on this game a good tank is not only someone who can survive and keep the boss from hitting the party, but someone who can do all that while doing as much damage as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

One thing that needs to be said is that on FFXIV DPS is king, in the harder fights (Savage, Extreme Primals) a tank who can maximize his damage by staying for as long as possible out of tank stance can (and often will) be the difference between a clear and an enrage, so yeah if you are not tanking you should be on Sword Oath and even if you are tanking you should also be often on Sword Oath as well, on this game a good tank is not only someone who can survive and keep the boss from hitting the party, but someone who can do all that while doing as much damage as possible.

---

Thank you to all for a lot of good information. I am definitely starting to play with stance dancing even when MTing. I tend to stay in Shield Oath in 4 man content, but in some 8 man fights, after I get an Enmity lead in Shield, I switch to Sword Oath.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mantu

Thank you to all for a lot of good information. I am definitely starting to play with stance dancing even when MTing. I tend to stay in Shield Oath in 4 man content, but in some 8 man fights, after I get an Enmity lead in Shield, I switch to Sword Oath.

---

Also, because I didn't see it mentioned, make sure you assert your PLD dominance by making WARs and DRKs pull :p

It's not optimal for PLD to pull and it's a bigger DPS loss for them to do Halone than it is for the other 2 tanks to do their aggro combo. It's a bigger DPS loss to stance dance on PLD because you lose the GCD and MP. I mean it's not going to kill your run, but just something to consider when you're ready to start optimizing the little things.

Since you're still leveling, I'll mention you should be OK pulling bosses in 4-man dungeons in sword oath. I did :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mantu

Thank you to all for a lot of good information. I am definitely starting to play with stance dancing even when MTing. I tend to stay in Shield Oath in 4 man content, but in some 8 man fights, after I get an Enmity lead in Shield, I switch to Sword Oath.

---

It's good that you're getting more comfortable tanking in sword oath, but I'll say that imo, 4 man content is the place to practice this. Generally speaking all 4 man content is a joke difficulty wise, so it would be good to practice tanking dungeon bosses in dps stance. I'd say still tank trash in shield oath though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mantu

I understand that my job as OT is to pick up the adds. But what about when there are no adds? Am I then essentially DPS? Should I switch into Sword Oath to maximize the damage? Is there any benefit to having me remaining in Shield Oath so I can at least be second on the enmity list?

---

In general, the role of the off-tank in this game is to relieve the main tank if and when they run out of defensive cooldowns or when they're hit with a mechanic that forces them to swap. As a rule of thumb the off-tank grabs adds, though this is not always the case.

Paladin fits either sub-role well, they just suck at establishing initial enmity, so always have your Dark Knight/Warrior pull. Personally, I prefer Paladin to main tank after the pull (when possible) because they gain extra damage from Shield Swipe procs and mitigate a substantial amount of damage with shield blocks.