The Art of Unlocking: Exploration and Crafting

If any of this has already been confirmed to be coming out, let me know.

For 2.0 I think maps should be blank and only filled in as we explore them. There's no sense of exploration since we already know where every mountain, body of water, cave, etc are located before we even take 2 steps in an area because our maps tell us where everything is. Because of this, I've never felt the need to explore and only get to where I need to go. I feel that exploration is a huge part of what immersion is all about and the more immersion we have, the better.

In regards to crafting....could we a proper recipe book? A book that organizes all synths via category and level of difficulty. Each space within the book can be a "????" until you've crafted or unlocked that particular recipe (i think of the recipe book in Dragon Quest IX). I would be more inclined to craft and try to fill my book rather than mindlessly grind one thing every few levels. I'm also sure other people would appreciate that and have something to do for quite some time as well.

If a recipe book gets implemented, allow us to store our top 5 favorite crafts (things we craft the most) and the last thing we crafted, so that we don't have to scroll through the entire list just to get to the thing we want to craft.

It's an idea. What do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by KamikazeMan

For 2.0 I think maps should be blank and only filled in as we explore them.

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But most other MMORPGs do this, including WoW. Do you want XIV to be like every other MMORPG on the market?

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Originally Posted by Isaveron

But most other MMORPGs do this, including WoW. Do you want XIV to be like every other MMORPG on the market?

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This game failed at launch partially because it tried to be different than every other MMO. Whether it's in another MMO or not is an invalid argument. It's a good idea, and it could add more exploration achievements since that area is a bit sparse right now.

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Originally Posted by Isaveron

But most other MMORPGs do this, including WoW. Do you want XIV to be like every other MMORPG on the market?

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What's wrong with copying something good from other games that does not break with the franchise but increases the quality/fun-factor?

100% agree that all maps should be blank and opened up as explored or mini quests for scrolls? I've never felt the need to explore the regions either.

Agree as well.

Also, from a Gatherer's perspective, it would be handy if we could fill in primary tool nodes as we find/use them.

As well as a recipe book, Perhaps add a Gathering Book in the form of widget similar in size to the minimap where we can keep a log of what items come from nodes and their relevant notch/spots (thinking of the userbility for the future console users (who wont have a windowed mode or two monitors side by side)


It would then be handy to allow the mini and main map to be customised to display things as you desire them (to avoid clutter)

It would also be handy if we could resize or reshape the minimap to our liking.

I suggested a recipe book a long time ago and I believe the word even back then is:

They're working on it, no real date given for completion.

Also I'd agree with having maps filled in as we go. The "Well other MMOs did it!" defense is pretty weak. There's nothing wrong with doing things that other games in the same genre do. Some things are standards for a good reason.

Star Ocean 3 style maps can I have it, thanks.

I really like the idea of self filling maps as it shows you where you have been and where you haven't.

Part of the fun of games like Etrian Odyssey are filling in the maps and exploration, I would love to see this aspect in an MMO.

WoW does do it sorta but its more area based.

I think the best way to do it would be to expose the square of the map you are standing in.

I've actually been thinking about this and was about to suggest it. Either exploring or buying the maps. But the problem with buying the maps is that everyone is already rich XD SO, I agree ;P

Buying and questing maps is a bad idea IMO, hated it in FF11.

I heard Pac-man had maps that you could buy from the vendor for certain places. I say, let's have to buy/earn maps to get into our Key Items inventory, and if we don't have those, we just go into the place not knowing where we are going, but unlocking shades of the map as we walk in.

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Originally Posted by Coldfire

What's wrong with copying something good from other games that does not break with the franchise but increases the quality/fun-factor?

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Pretty sure he was just failing at being sarcastic.

I do would love a recipe book, but i like the maps the way they are. If that's the case, you could leave only the raw map at start and unlock just additional info when you get to the camp the first time, like originally you seeing just the map and the safe road...when you get to a camp the camp and gates become visible and as you get the gates additional content, like local NPCs, road names, dungeon positions and other local map markers becoming visible.

I Like this idea. It loved exploring every bit of a map in the Remake of FFIV on the DS.
I would also like if when you complete a map 100%, you can obtain a reward from a map obsessed npc with a funny costume....or just a regular npc....

Also, when in a party, allow all party members to share map info until the party is dismissed. Any new map areas explored during the party time are added to your own map.

I also like the idea of a recipe book. you discover a new recipe? added to your book! a npc gives you a recipe? added as well!
i would also like to see recipe books that npc's sell. For instance... a book called "The amazing guide for hempen" would be sold by a npc at the weaver's guild. buying this book would automatically add several useful hempen recipes on your recipe book. However, the book (which you should be able to open and read) would not have every recipe that could be done with hempen. instead, at the end it would say something like: "experiment by combining different amounts of hempen cloth, hempen yarn and sheep leather to discover new recipes!"

Its a crazy idea... and nobody will probably listen but i think it would encourage experimentation and make crafting less mindless...

leveling up just for the sake of it its not very fun...

I also dislike automatically getting everything. I want a sense that my character is growing by learning spells, abilities, recipes and maps. I want there to be stuff easy to learn, super rare, and everything in between.

Thumbs up! I support this idea and there was a reason it was done this way with MMOs in the past, as it's already been stated, a motivation to explore.

As for recipes I would like to see a system where the more you craft the more recipes are discovered.

It would certainly seperate the novice from the expert, recipe book is a must have obviously.

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Originally Posted by KamikazeMan

If any of this has already been confirmed to be coming out, let me know.

For 2.0 I think maps should be blank and only filled in as we explore them. There's no sense of exploration since we already know where every mountain, body of water, cave, etc are located before we even take 2 steps in an area because our maps tell us where everything is. Because of this, I've never felt the need to explore and only get to where I need to go. I feel that exploration is a huge part of what immersion is all about and the more immersion we have, the better.

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I liked buying/questing/chest hunting maps in XI. Having all the maps from the start might have been a good thing with the huge zones in 1.0, but in the new 2.0 zones we should acquire them in some fashion.

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Originally Posted by KamikazeMan

In regards to crafting....could we a proper recipe book? A book that organizes all synths via category and level of difficulty.

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At least some recipes should be unlocked in some fashion and added to the book before they can be used. Adding recipes that can only be obtained through endgame events, and must be obtained to be used would be a fun addition for crafters. Adding in other conditions like locations/times and other conditions for crafting would be fun too. Think along the lines of the sort of epicness associated with making magic items in 'The Lord of the Rings,' or 'The Silmarilion.' The most powerful and valuable items should be hard to make, and not just acquired from a list of 100 identical items in the market wards.

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Originally Posted by Yelta_Sumasu

I also dislike automatically getting everything. I want a sense that my character is growing by learning spells, abilities, recipes and maps. I want there to be stuff easy to learn, super rare, and everything in between.

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I Agree ;)

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Originally Posted by Masamune1004

This game failed at launch partially because it tried to be different than every other MMO. Whether it's in another MMO or not is an invalid argument. It's a good idea, and it could add more exploration achievements since that area is a bit sparse right now.

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I believe this game failed at launch because it wanted to be too many things and ended up being none well enough. If it had remained true to its roots, courting its assured constituency, it would've had at least the love and devotion of the FFXI legacy crowd, while perhaps puzzling and alienating the WoW crowd. If, on the other hand, it had broken with legacy, but had gone on to become a standard MMO, within the Western tradition (yes, you might read this as cloning WoW,) it might have alienated those legacy players, but at least it would've stood a chance with the Western MMO/ Wow Clone crowd. At the end, and this was the fault of its producer, it ended up alienating both groups, and pleasing none. This without mentioning that even the failed and compromised, middle-of-the-road vision of said producer wasn't even cooked enough to be launched. Time wasted, resources misapplied, bad decisions... but fundamentally, an indecisive identity starting at the drawing table.

I have much better hopes for version 2.

R

I remember the un-revealing of maps being suggested a long time ago and it may have even received a rep response, something along the lines that they were thinking about it with map revisions.

Would love to unlock my maps rather than have them handed to me (Give us maps for underground as well guys!) the tunnle and stuff gives people a reason to explore.

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Originally Posted by Masamune1004

This game failed at launch partially because it tried to be different than every other MMO. Whether it's in another MMO or not is an invalid argument. It's a good idea, and it could add more exploration achievements since that area is a bit sparse right now.

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The problem was they tried to be too much like other mmorpg...FF has its own identity...trying to be like a 10 mil elephant was a mistake...each game has its own winning formula...FF definitely has it's own...SE should rely and trust in their strengths...they would have a perfect game if they did.

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Originally Posted by Coldfire

What's wrong with copying something good from other games that does not break with the franchise but increases the quality/fun-factor?

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I think its more of a "try to please everyone" kind of thing, i mean just look at that gobue thread, we're getting whiners just non stop bitching about how we shouldn't have more than one mount because FF style durr, you think they won't complain about having to uncover maps as well?

Not that I oppose fog of war, I'm all up for it, buy maps for dungeons, chart world maps as you go.

my way is best way. no other way is better.

I really like the idea of the recipe book!! I still like the current system of the most recent crafts as well. Would love an entire book though and maybe some achievements from crafting 1 of everything as well ^^.

I like the way it is now, an I rather not change it.

what about have a class call cartographer.
Groups of adventurers can accept quests from guild or watever it's called.
then proceed on exploring, while cartographer needs to be on team.
as the group exploring, cartographer's data will increase.
you can turn in the quests at based on your data, and you will get maps, based on the data you got, as quest reward.

since eventually, people will complete all areas,
so cartographer should be able to work on something that require drawing. e.g. scrolls.

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Originally Posted by Zeref

you think they won't complain about having to uncover maps as well?

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I highly doubt the people who are against Mob mounts, would be against revealing maps because most of them are from the "Work for your stuff" camp for the most part.

Hell look at me I think Goobue mounts are stupid as hell, but I think earning your maps is a great idea.

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Originally Posted by Tigerme

what about have a class call cartographer.
Groups of adventurers can accept quests from guild or watever it's called.
then proceed on exploring, while cartographer needs to be on team.
as the group exploring, cartographer's data will increase.
you can turn in the quests at based on your data, and you will get maps, based on the data you got, as quest reward.

since eventually, people will complete all areas,
so cartographer should be able to work on something that require drawing. e.g. scrolls.

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I think it's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would required a whole class out of because like you said the class will need something beside making maps.

What could happen is making maps can be a part of one of the DoH class right now (I guess leather?) and when the player explore fully an entire area they will learn the recipe to craft up a map for that area. With the right ingredients they can craft some maps and sell them. This would slightly have some economy benefits for I'm sure there's the lazy ones around who'd just rather buy a map.

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Originally Posted by Douten

I think it's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would required a whole class out of because like you said the class will need something beside making maps.

What could happen is making maps can be a part of one of the DoH class right now (I guess leather?) and when the player explore fully an entire area they will learn the recipe to craft up a map for that area. With the right ingredients they can craft some maps and sell them. This would slightly have some economy benefits for I'm sure there's the lazy ones around who'd just rather buy a map.

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Maybe give DoL or DoH sub jobs that can be used from time to time, rather than as often as battle and magic jobs. Armorer can fix/create Magitek armor (since they're being released and mounts will be usable in battle), Blacksmith can fix/create Magitek weapons, Carpenter can be a cartographer and create treasure maps once every few days (once a week as guild quest?) that unlock quests, Botanist can plant and grow vegetables in these player housings we're getting (indoor garden). DoH and DoL should not get left in the dust when it comes to jobs and advance skills.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I like the way it is now, an I rather not change it.

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Well your definitly going to hate all the changes coming if you like the way it is now then.

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Originally Posted by Tigerme

what about have a class call cartographer.
Groups of adventurers can accept quests from guild or watever it's called.
then proceed on exploring, while cartographer needs to be on team.
as the group exploring, cartographer's data will increase.
you can turn in the quests at based on your data, and you will get maps, based on the data you got, as quest reward.

since eventually, people will complete all areas,
so cartographer should be able to work on something that require drawing. e.g. scrolls.

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You know, I've actually seen a cartographer class in one of the indie online RPGs i've played when I was a kid, they definitely did something interesting, cartographers were able to craft maps of zones after exploring them, there were like three maps for each area, spawn map, dungeon location map (game was filled with little sub-caves and stuff) and just general layout map, higher levels were able to markup levels of mobs and jot down boss locations, they used to sell those maps and the need never ran out because maps essentially had durability. as a fighter they basically used giant quills and brushes and were essentially an ink mage class concentrating on buffs and debuffs.

Its actually pretty sad, this was all done by three guys in a basement using an old 2D engine that was closer to nintendo visuals than to what PC was at the time, ended up shutting down because the game basically had 20 people on at peak hours. Get your head in the game Square, I'm not saying this would necessarily fit in XIV, but you were being outdone by a couple of unemployed kids ten years ago, what's your excuse now?

Let's all look a few years back to FFXII. I personally think the way that the map was handled on that game was near perfect. You explore and it would fill in as you explore. You can buy the map, and it outlines the rest of the area, but the unexplored areas are still slightly darkened, and are brighter once you have explored them.

The only thing different since this is a MMO, would be to possibly have some of the out of the way, higher level areas, with end game content, maybe have a small quest to obtain the map. Of course, if you didn't want to do the quest, you could just fill in the map yourself.

Most of the reason you folks don't want to go explore is because you already know you're not going to see anything amazing. Oh look a marmot that's level 30 instead of level 3.

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Originally Posted by Lamentor

Let's all look a few years back to FFXII. I personally think the way that the map was handled on that game was near perfect. You explore and it would fill in as you explore. You can buy the map, and it outlines the rest of the area, but the unexplored areas are still slightly darkened, and are brighter once you have explored them.

The only thing different since this is a MMO, would be to possibly have some of the out of the way, higher level areas, with end game content, maybe have a small quest to obtain the map. Of course, if you didn't want to do the quest, you could just fill in the map yourself.

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This is a good idea. If purchasing/questing for map is available I've always felt it shouldn't show everything about the map. To build on the idea, for example, when you buy the map you just get to see what the area are. When you explore on top of that perhaps the map can show the area where certain group of mobs spawns, DoL locations, NPCs marked on the map, etc. This will encourage exploration, but not force it for those who's not into that kind of things.

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Originally Posted by SnickleWhiskers

Most of the reason you folks don't want to go explore is because you already know you're not going to see anything amazing. Oh look a marmot that's level 30 instead of level 3.

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This is true, but aren't we talking about 2.0 here for the most part, maps will be much more interesting then. (we hope)

I'll just add my experience with the map.

It honestly ruined exploration completely for me. Sure there are a few nice areas, and sure the areas themselves are bland. But if you walk into a dungeon, you can see the map, you are already to able to form an image of what you're about to see and it ruins completely any feeling of exploration.

Then the outside areas... the bounds are set and all the areas are known... Once you've seen one area, you've seen it all.

I think having maps already revealed was a huge mistake... I understand there's lore.. the lalafell or w/e that journeyed and made the maps... but with meteor coming to explode Eorzea, I think this is a great opportunity to revisit what I think was a huuuuge mistake.

I like the idea, i'm not against purchasable maps either. Perhaps much more detail available on purchased maps and purely discovered areas are more roughly "drawn".

Probably been said but just throwing in my approval ^^

I think SE should do what they did in FFXI. Meaning we buy the maps as well as some being quest related map. I found that either buying the maps or questing for maps was in its self rewarding. Now to black out the maps as we walk thru the zones I would have to disagree with anything like that. Now to leave the map blank thats fine till you either buy the map or quest for it. I would love a book to hold all the receipts we make and or can unlock. Now ill go even furthure and say with the new jobs of whm and blm, SE needs to take away the animas and give the whm teleport spells as well as blm's having their warp, and warp 2 spells. Also sneak and invis would be a nice addition as well for mages to have. Part of what made FFXI fun to explore was not knowing and you are running thru a zone w sneak/invis up. In ffxiv there is no sense of danger. Exploration in FFXIV is either walk past certain mobs or depending on the area you are in you either get lucky as some spots are full of monsters that are sight only so walking and such dosent help, it is just by luck that you may or may not get by certain monsters in certain zones. For those of you that will say it can be done, I say im sure it can if and only if the monsters are in a placement (sight aggro only) that you can get thru. I have gotten all crystals (thats what I call them) in all but 2 zones.

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Originally Posted by Lamentor

Let's all look a few years back to FFXII. I personally think the way that the map was handled on that game was near perfect. You explore and it would fill in as you explore. You can buy the map, and it outlines the rest of the area, but the unexplored areas are still slightly darkened, and are brighter once you have explored them.

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The idea of buying an incomplete map and then filling in the details through exploration is pretty good. Someone who just wants to get through to the next connected zone can do so just by acquiring the map for the zone, but fine details have to be found to show on the map. This might include gathering points, caves, smaller settlements and npcs.

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Originally Posted by KamikazeMan

Maybe give DoL or DoH sub jobs that can be used from time to time, rather than as often as battle and magic jobs. Armorer can fix/create Magitek armor (since they're being released and mounts will be usable in battle), Blacksmith can fix/create Magitek weapons, Carpenter can be a cartographer and create treasure maps once every few days (once a week as guild quest?) that unlock quests, Botanist can plant and grow vegetables in these player housings we're getting (indoor garden). DoH and DoL should not get left in the dust when it comes to jobs and advance skills.

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A bit off topic, but what might make sense would be to allow each DoH class to create artwork objects that include maps. Since we will have player housing it would be nice to add sculpture (armorer or blacksmith) to those gardens, paintings (carpenter weaver leatherworker) on the walls, and statuary in precious metals and stones (goldsmith) to decorate the tops of furniture. You could even have quality randomization included in the craft attempt where adding the materials may produce one of several tapestries of varying quality. The crafter might select a theme like battle and dragons though their material choices. I suppose it would even be possible to do portraits of other characters by entering their character name in a box. Alchemists would make fish tanks, and of course everyone wants a pet Snurble.

I think the idea is everyone can garden, but I think someone with botany leveled should get better quantity/quality results. To use XI as an example elemental ores would be something that would require botany at a certain level to obtain them from gardening.