At What Levels and For Which Classes is Gameplay Too Shallow, Too Complex, or Perfect

As per title. Discuss if interested.

I've been on something of a hiatus for awhile due to real life shenanigans so I can't comment on too many classes... However if I had to pick a class I'm not fond of it'd be pre-70 MCH at this point in time, especially sub 30 where I feel like the class is a chore to play. Now that SE seems to have settled down on making drastic changes to MCH with every minor patch however, the class feels pretty nice to play at 70. On the opposite end, I feel like WHM probably plays the best it ever has right now with the addition of Thin Air and though I find the Lily system pointless I've been having an absolute blast leveling it on my alt after stepping away from the class in 3.2. BRD is in a similar spot though I've only just dipped my toe back into it.

As for SCH... I'm really not sure how to feel about it, though I could say the same of SE as well. It feels like they really don't know what to do with the class since this is the second expansion in a row where our capped level skill basically sits and gathers dust on our bars. I still love the class but I'm not entirely sure the people in charge of balancing for it feel the same.

I really am enjoying WAR at 52 now that I have Deliverance. I'm sure I'll like it in the future as I get more moves as well but as someone new to tanking in general I feel like this skillset is something I can manage while still having to push myself if I want to contribute DPS.


BRD at 70 for me feels absolutely perfect. It's maybe the only job I can say that about. The extended debuff timers have really come together with Barrage/Raging Strikes and the songs to a point that I feel like I can't ever go full autopilot like I can on a healer. There is always something to think about and I love it. WHM is my main but I think BRD might be the most actual fun.

SAM is boring up to Hagakure and the jump to gameplay after Hagakure is so big that I feel like unless I play it more with someone parsing me I won't ever fully understand it. Priority systems are great but two competing resource gagues that interact so much gets confusing fast.

DRG is sooooo boring at low levels. I'm 20 right now and it consists of Heavy Thrust upkeep and a 2 hit combo. One move (Impulse Drive maybe?) literally has no point because it doesn't combo with anything and spamming it is a potency loss over executing the 2 hit combo. Every 60 seconds I get to buff a Vorpal Thrust with Life Surge.

Cool thread idea. Might help people research things they're thinking of leveling and get through dead zones like the first 20+ levels of DRG.

This is a good idea for feedback.

I know there's been many a complaint about how the classes feel at low levels, and how some jobs after the revamp no longer feel 'complete' back at 50/60/whatever level.


I do recall that AST is a bit annoying at level sync 50 content since their aoe skill isn't until 52...

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

This is a good idea for feedback.

I know there's been many a complaint about how the classes feel at low levels, and how some jobs after the revamp no longer feel 'complete' back at 50/60/whatever level.


I do recall that AST is a bit annoying at level sync 50 content since their aoe skill isn't until 52...

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That's my main issue with MCH honestly. The job doesn't feel right until you get Gauss Barrel, but because they introduced the Heat Gauge even that can be a chore without access to Cooldown at 62. The class is a BLAST when you have your entire kit available but the way they introduced and then balanced the new mechanic just makes everything before then feel somewhat empty.

Bard is a very, very backloaded job. It feels awful to play until you get Wanderer's Minuet/Pitch Perfect at 52, where you finally have a proper song rotation to use. Their unique support is mostly backloaded into 50+ too. Hell, I think Bard actually learns more skills between level 50-70 compared to 1-49, if you exclude role actions... I actually want the devs to switch Wanderer's Minuet with Battle Voice in terms of the level where you learn them, so that Bards don't walk into Level 50 content feeling like a literal third of their 'rotation' is missing.

But I suppose Bard needs SOME downside considering they're pretty much the one job that can be described as absolutely perfect in terms of overall design at Lv. 70. The only thing that feels off about them is how Army's Paeon works, and it's only because it's underwhelming compared to how amazing the other two songs are, while many jobs have far worse design issues.

EDIT: Bard learns 14 skills from 1-49, and 12 from 50-70. Pretty close. Hmm.

Dragoon is awful until the 40s range, though it remain rather dull pre-60 now due to losing Ring of Thorns and Geirskogul's lengthily recast time now. Granted, this only impacts its AoE rotation. From a single target perspective, it feels pretty decent as early as level 50 and complete by 60. The Stormblood additions feel like a nice compliment to an already solid arsenal rather than an overhaul. My only personal gripe is Dragon Sight as I am not a fan of having to use a macro so I don't lose uptime. Overall though, I'm quite happy with it.

MNK feels complete at 56 after Elixir Field as everything else after that adds nothing enjoyable to the job.

Being a BLM main, I guess I really can't complain. The basic rotation is kind of simple to downright boring for me until you get Enochian, but at least it's pretty steady until you get that mechanic change. And once you do, oh lord, am I grateful for the SB changes. Once you get it, Enochian used to be a glorified buff until 58 where you got Bliz IV, but post SB it's just. Up. All the time. Always. Which used to be the main hassle of this mechanic but now it's gone. I'm really grateful that they left it mostly as-is even with the 60+ additions, where they bothered to at least address some issues with the job mostly regarding mobility, like the teleport back to the ley lines which if used smartly is a lot more than just an increase in mobility but also helpful with abiding certain mechanics, and oh lord Triplecast. Quad-flare also deserves a mention here, especially followed by Foul.

-BRD could for sure would be better if they gave the songs closer together, I mean ya I get it but its not until 70 where it really feels like a support dps job.
-RDM feels good all the way from 50-70. I feel like it could use a DoT skill or two to manage. Dia (1-3) comes to mind.
-Sam flow well all the way to 70.

I think the "problem" with RDM and SAM is that all the other classes have had things tacked on over the years. That had added clunckyness that people mistake for challenge. There is a difference between challenge and flow. It's obvious that the team wants the game to flow like RDM or SAM does, unfortunately merely tacking things on will not fix clunkyness. Especially as they add more DDR style raid/boss fights. The last thing that is needed is clunkyness.

They revamped the job system. They should look at the skill system now.

DRK is pretty boring until 70. It used to be really fun to play at 60 in HW, but they took away a lot from it I feel. It's even more mundane below 60. Being able to spam TBN, Quietwhatever, and Abyssal drain on mobs at 70 is quite satisfying on the flipside.

NIN is NIN, at whatever level. Probably the least affected class by the 4.0 changes, and it feels just as enjoyable at every level 50 onward.

SMN is probably the one class that sticks out for dramatically changing when you get DWT. It's utterly boring before then.

AST feels pretty bad before 30 (when you can start drawing cards, unlock a sect). Got low level dungeons a couple of times when I was leveling it and it always was such a drag, cos pre cards AST pretty much feels and plays exactly like WHM. And even then it doesn't really start being fun until at least 40, preferably 52(when you unlock your AOE).

I think ALL jobs should be given the basic abilities needed when in combat by Lv20

Tanks: AoE aggro, buff, aggro combo, range aggro. Tanks are done right so far so the devs did fine.

DPS: OGCD attack, an AoE, an attack buff, range attack

Healers: Regen, OGCD heal, AoE heal, Damage spells.

Everything else should be added later on. It's extremely painful playing DRG in anything before Stone Vigil because I don't even get an AoE until Lv40.. That's broken to me. Instead of getting Impulse Drive at Lv6, I should've gotten Piercing Talon instead and Doom Spike at lv15 with Impulse Dive moving to Lv35 and Elusive Jump to Lv40. Impulse Drive is a wasted space until Lv38.

New jobs like MCH, RDM, and SAM all come fit with AoEs and the tools they need to dps at an early level while MNK, DRG, NIN and SMN all have nothing. It should really be fixed imo..

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Originally Posted by Ash_

DRK is pretty boring until 70. It used to be really fun to play at 60 in HW, but they took away a lot from it I feel. It's even more mundane below 60.

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Basically what they said, but even at level 70 DRK IS THE WEAKEST of the 3 tanks mostly because of how much they lost and REALLY hates healers that DPS even though tank should be doing as much damage as DPS to make up for healers crappy DPS... Not sure if they want healers to heal more but they should at least encourage tanks and healer and DPS that do a lot of AoE damage to do more big pulls if you already know how the dungeon is going to play out...

NIN pre-45 is just 1-2-3 like all the other jobs. Slightly annoying before Armor Crush (52?), but pretty fun to play all the way to 70. Just getting more skills as you go.

DRG at 50 still feels the same as DRG at 50 back in HW. However, DRG at 60 now feels like DRG at 50 still with GSK just being another cooldown to press and +1 extra button for the combo. BotD is kind of whatever now. Things start to feel better again at 64 when you get Lance Mastery. DRG doesn't feel perfect at 70, but I guess it's ok now with the whole 3 eyes thing.

Scholar is painful to play in under 30 dungeons because you're basically just a bad DPS with a healing turret before you get adlo. They're also the only healer that doesn't get a plain aoe heal at level 10, succor unlocks at 35. Eos can aoe heal but it's a party-wide regen and has a 60s cooldown. I've gotten tanks in Aurum Vale before who'd become frustrated with me for not using whispering dawn in the first pull room because "i want a regen" and I'm just "i want to live".

Almost all the classes have some level of button bloat, but I'd say Warrior and Black Mage have the least issue with it, although black mage has some other issues.

Personally, given how many RDMs and SAMs flood the endgame right now (those are my two DPS classes), I am working on DRG, but since it's in the early 40s, I feel like it's a very complex class. Just the amount of stuff I have to remember is a bit overwhelming compared to the aforementioned classes and even my MNK, which was my first DPS class. Doesn't help that every single video online is about 13 minutes long, which is a crazy long time just to learn optimal rotations. I hope this class let's me figure out optimal rotation, but i dunno...

I can only speak for DRK/WAR since I play them most in roulette.

In general, I feel like DRK is good in between levels 17 and 30 for dungeons, as unleash and blood weapon gives a nice dynamic and allows you to use both MP and TP. But after that, it gradually becomes worse and worse until Level 70, when all comes together and the class feels "full" again.

WAR just feels sluggish before level 62/64, as they have no ogcds in that time to weave in between attacks. Before you get equilibrium, your TP will be a constant worry when bigpulling.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I am working on DRG, but since it's in the early 40s, I feel like it's a very complex class. Just the amount of stuff I have to remember is a bit overwhelming compared to the aforementioned classes and even my MNK, which was my first DPS class.

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I'm leveling a dragoon currently myself, just hit 52. In my experience it plays somewhat like a RDM around 60. Here's my experience so far:

You have the main rotation, the first three hit combo you get. Then you've got a second one that debuffs and dots. Debuff and dot, and do the regular rotation until you need to refresh the dot and debuff. Then rotate jumps inbetween attacks like you would Fleche and Contre Sixt on a RDM.

Around level 60 is when it gets a bit more complex and more like RDM in the fact you get the class bar. Instead of keeping things balanced you want to keep the bar filled. When you use Blood of the Dragon (I think its called). It fills partially and when you use one of the combos an ability will become available and when used it adds 10s to the bar (33%). While the bar is filled your jumps do extra damage.

After 60 is when you get this eye or glare thing with charges and you build and spend those charges. I don't have much more to say because I've only been '60' in Palace so I have a ways to go before I unlock that. In addition you have buff management that help maximize DPS. Other than that.. the class isn't too bad.

Hope that helps. Sometimes people who know how to play the class take things for granted, so I figured I'd give my analysis as someone who's learning it like you are. Might give a closer insight.

For me personally it's Drk, Drg, Smn, Mch, Monk, Ast

Drk - It lost so much and you can't begin to control your Bloodgauge until 68, but it doesn't feel complete until 70 when you get TBN making the leveling process feel very awkward.

Drg- Just feels completely empty until the high 50's but even then in AoE groups you'lll lose BoTD till you get the AoE move to maintain it, even then Lance Mastery is where it gets a little more interesting. From 1-50 it's mostly just hitting 1-2-3 over and over which is really boring.

Smn - With the Bane nerfs and not having DwT it doesn't feel that great, it's not till later when you can use your new DoTs and Ruin III baseline, but being under 60 while your leveling is just painful.

Mch - You have a Heatgauge, great what does it do? You'll have to find out at 62! When you can finally dump some heat but it's not till 64 you can finally use heated shots, even then you can't control your heat so it suffers like Drk where it's not till 70 the class flows. Anything under 64 really sucks as a Mch.

Mnk - It just has nothing it lost a lot of moves and is really boring to level, Elixir Field is when it starts getting a little more fun I haven't leveled Mnk past 60 but I heard the Tackle Masteries are just "meh" and hasn't really made Mnk enjoyable, it suffers from the direction it moved from HW really.

Ast - My only real complaint is that you don't get Gravity till 52...why? Sch and Whm have AoEs at 50 but Ast does not so it feels really awkward they could just change it to get Synastry at 52 and Gravity at 50. Other than that Ast is fine among drawing and redrawing cards.

All I can say is, I'm glad I was able to level DRK in pvp before the exp nerf/bot fest. It just feels bad taking it into leveling content. WAR/PLD just felt way more complete from 50-60 all the way to 70. All the skills gained from 60-70 were icing on the cake.

After the "class revamp": Anything under level 40 is absolutely shallow. Some classes don't have AoE at all (Dragoon) and if they do it's on a CD of some sort (Ninja) Many classes before 35 are simply 1-2 or 1-2-3- bots.