Paladin - some QoL ideas

Hello, want to share ideas on PLD

1) Divine Veil is extremely random.
If I need to shield party, and Passage of Arms is not an option, what often happens:
- use Veil and toss Clemency to trigger it
- healer finishes Medica or something just before damage hits, negating the Veil leading to deaths.
Proposed change: significantly shorten duration of barrier effect (say, from 30 to 10 seconds), but don't let it be removed by heals.

2) Flash
Does not feel melee class-y. Feels like arcane mage (excuse the WoW paralel) hopping around doing PLING-PLING-PLING arcane explosions.
It feels.. un-physical, cheesy even.
What I'm thinking: X-seconds after using Flash, Total Eclipse will generate extra hate. instead of: F-F-F-F, you go F-TE-TE-TE

3) Holy Spirit has 25y range. Requiscat has 0.
Feels like limit imposed by PvP, where it would be unfair to allow PLD to nuke ranged classes that distanced themselves from melee.
Could Requiscat be perhaps given longer range in PVE only?

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

Hello, want to share ideas on PLD

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More like a buff not a QoL and divine veil isn't random you should know when a healer is going to heal ya

I don't think I understand what you mean about Divine Veil.

Divine Veil works as a buff on the PLD. While this buff is on the PLD, the ability does nothing at all. It is only when the PLD gets a heal that the people close to the PLD get the barrier, so a healer triggering it before a raidwide blast is actually desirable instead of having to break your rotation with a use of Clemency. Unless you mean something else? It's definitely not random at all, though.

1.) Divine Veil does not fall off party members when healed again. If it falls off from you, you proced it. If you put it too early, your fault.

2.) It not feeling "melee" is because Paladin is a tank-caster mix.

Giving it a proc upon "hitting" something with it would be similar to Unmend -> Unleash. If it is not guaranteed, sure it would be fine.

Guaranteed aggro boost would through things completely out of the window, outperforming DRK's second-last niche, last one being PvP. Keep in mind, FoF boosts TE.

3) Limitting Paladin's effective range for dealing damage is intended. Giving Paladin the ability to buff his ranged spell with another ranged ability would make Paladin monsters as DPSy tanks in PvP while giving them a huge amount of mobility for mechanics in PVE, topping WAR and DRK mobility-wise.

Even a suggestion as dumb as making Paladins stances oGCD would make him unnecessarily better than he already is. No QoL changes let alone buffs or nerfs needed.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

..so a healer triggering it before a raidwide blast is actually desirable instead of having to break your rotation with a use of Clemency. Unless you mean something else? It's definitely not random at all

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Thanks for explanation, I misunderstood the ability description. There is sentence at the end that HP recovery will remove it - and its not after description of your buff, but after description of Barrier that is on others.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

2.) It not feeling "melee" is because Paladin is a tank-caster mix.

Giving it a proc upon "hitting" something with it would be similar to Unmend -> Unleash. If it is not guaranteed, sure it would be fine.

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I dont have DRK, but from reading the ability its not what I meant. Im not talking about free cast, but replacing "Flash spamm" with "Flash and then Total Eclipse spamm".

Also regarding the Requiescat, I specifically said not in PvP and dont understand what you mean about the Stance change oGCD, I was not talking about that at all ??

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

2) Flash
Does not feel melee class-y. Feels like arcane mage (excuse the WoW paralel) hopping around doing PLING-PLING-PLING arcane explosions.
It feels.. un-physical, cheesy even.
What I'm thinking: X-seconds after using Flash, Total Eclipse will generate extra hate. instead of: F-F-F-F, you go F-TE-TE-TE

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If you're spamming flash you're doing it wrong, you're never supposed to use flash 4 times in a row as your example.

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

Also regarding the Requiescat, I specifically said not in PvP and dont understand what you mean about the Stance change oGCD, I was not talking about that at all ??

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I also explained why not in PVE - overtuned mobility for their ranged burst phases.

My mention about "simple stuff like ogcd stances" was to explain that Paladin needs NOTHING and is imho just perfect the way it is. Just because you didn't mention it doesn't mean I can't bring it as an example.

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Originally Posted by Thela

If you're spamming flash you're doing it wrong, you're never supposed to use flash 4 times in a row as your example.

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I was thinking specificaly multi-pack pull.
If you in dungeon gather 3 packs runnig throught them - and wanto to keep all even against some dps engaging on-the-way and healer HoTs ticking, you can only F-F-F-F, there is no other meaningful way.

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

I was thinking specificaly multi-pack pull.
If you in dungeon gather 3 packs runnig throught them - and wanto to keep all even against some dps engaging on-the-way and healer HoTs ticking, you can only F-F-F-F, there is no other meaningful way.

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I deal with hots and overzealous dps as such: click off regens before engaging next pack. Flash through pack. Watch enemy list for dropping hp, rotate camera and shield lob said enemy losing the most hp. Continue with pack pulling. Pretty simple stuff.

If you can’t hold aggro with that, get better gear and try again.

And ffs, pop a cd while gathering mobs. It will keep the healer from having to use hots in the first place during large pulls.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

I deal with hots and overzealous dps as such: click off regens before engaging next pack. Flash through pack. Watch enemy list for dropping hp, rotate camera and shield lob said enemy losing the most hp. Continue with pack pulling. Pretty simple stuff.

If you can’t hold aggro with that, get better gear and try again.

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You misunderstand me completely Boris, I'm not complaining that I cant hold aggro. I just wish I could do AoE aggro in such situation other way than spamming flash, which does just fell wrong to me :)

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

You misunderstand me completely Boris, I'm not complaining that I cant hold aggro. I just wish I could do AoE aggro in such situation other way than spamming flash, which does just fell wrong to me :)

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But you already can? Spamming flash is not a thing that is required at all, generally i will use flash once, then TE 2-3 times then flash ONCE again etc. spamming it is really not how its supposed to be used. Also because you will entirely negate the blind debuff it provides if you do that.

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Originally Posted by Thela

But you already can? Spamming flash is not a thing that is required at all, generally i will use flash once, then TE 2-3 times then flash ONCE again etc. spamming it is really not how its supposed to be used. Also because you will entirely negate the blind debuff it provides if you do that.

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Precisely. I don't PLD too often (esp dungeons when I mostly go dps to take a break from tanking), but yea you only need a few flashes total per pull. Spread them out between TE's and ride the blind debuff as long as you can. Beyond those 2-3 spread out flashes you shouldn't need anymore.

What Whiskeybravo and Thela said. I typically can Flash, CoS and go straight into Eclipse spam with FoF up.

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

Thanks for explanation, I misunderstood the ability description. There is sentence at the end that HP recovery will remove it - and its not after description of your buff, but after description of Barrier that is on others.

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Aah, gotcha. I see how the tool tip could be confusing. Indeed, the effect that ends upon healing received is only the "Divine Veil" buff that you get on yourself, which does nothing. The activation of Divine Veil is actually pretty flexible due to the long duration of the buff on the PLD. You can theoretically pop it as far as 55 seconds before the barrier is actually needed if you're off-tanking. If you get healed as the buff is about to fall off, the barrier will then last for anoter 30 seconds. It's quite handy, really!

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

And ffs, pop a cd while gathering mobs. It will keep the healer from having to use hots in the first place during large pulls.

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Or just pop Sprint right before you're about to gain hate from a single target. The 20 seconds worth of Sprint will make it so you take minimal damage while you're gathering mobs, and thus will free up the use of a CD for when you're actually taking hits to the face! o7

Another good tip is popping Convalescence as you're gathering mobs. A healer who does DPS will use Largesse, put HoTs on you and then go ham, usually as soon as you stop running. If Convalescence is already up by then, the HoT will be stronger and you'll need even less healing!

there should be no reason to flash spam... two flashes and a circle of scorn and you have all the aggro you need. The reason people flash so much is because they don't switch targets when doing their threat rotation (well who would in this "let's pull the entire dungeon and AoE" meta) and are amazed that they lose aggro on mobs.

The only changes I want for pld are to lower the cooldowns of Bulwark and Tempered Will. Bulwark is on the same cd than Holmgang, it's ridiculous, lower it to 2min from 3. But the worst of the worst is still Tempered Will, 3min cd for almost the same effect has Surecast, wich is on a 30s cooldown...

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Originally Posted by Greil

Bulwark is on the same cd than Holmgang, it's ridiculous, lower it to 2min from 3. But the worst of the worst is still Tempered Will, 3min cd for almost the same effect has Surecast, wich is on a 30s cooldown...

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Bulwark CD seems kinda longish for what it does. My guess is, that it is not so much because of Bulwark itself, but because PLD already have very high assortment of defensive cooldowns. Lowering CD on any of them is.. tricky

As for Tempered Will, that is perhaps PvP consideration? Not sure, since I dont PvP.

Nah.. I say do something with that ultraboring "Flash" (was not refering to any comic characters just to be clear).

Yeah Divine Veil could use a little updating, since Shake it Off eclipses it in most aspects presently, I'm fine with the PLD not getting the shield (we do have a lot of defensive kit) but the two-tiered activation system needs to go at the very least.

Agreed Bulwark could use a CD reduction, it does have a strong effect but it only increases block rate by a percentage, so theoretically (admittedly unlikely) it could wind up doing absolutely nothing making it pretty unreliable outside of mob swarms, especially on multi hit tankbusters where it should be a good option.

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

As for Tempered Will, that is perhaps PvP consideration? Not sure, since I dont PvP.

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PvP and PvE toolkits are separate, so any adjustment made to PvE actions has no bearing in PvP.

Tempered Will's CD is super ridiculous tbh, specially since there are so manny knockacks in the game that it doesn't work against. Particularly troublesome in this last raid tier, and even more so considering that WAR and DRK's answer to knockback (Onslaught and Plunge) are both on very short recast timers. Tempered Will should probably have around 1m to 90s of CDs at most.

Bulwark at 2m recast wouldn't make or break anything, and would give PLD a more decent MT spot for mitigating stray damage from auto-attack or untelegraphed phases.

hi, I have been leveling up my pld and is currently level 65. During "Shisui of the Violet Tides" I received a complain from a group member stating that I wasn't holding agro I even got insulted but I didn't respond. I use ultimatum, flash, and provoke to start a pull then spam savage, fast, riot, and rage of halone to hold. What am I doing wrong? your advice is needed, Zexy

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Originally Posted by DiamondOrion

hi, I have been leveling up my pld and is currently level 65. During "Shisui of the Violet Tides" I received a complain from a group member stating that I wasn't holding agro I even got insulted but I didn't respond. I use ultimatum, flash, and provoke to start a pull then spam savage, fast, riot, and rage of halone to hold. What am I doing wrong? your advice is needed, Zexy

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ultimatum and provoke don't generate enmity. they give you the same enmity the party member with the highest enmity has +1, wich means they do basically nothing when you already have enmity or when you try to pull with these skills - they give you face-aggro, nothing more.

use more flash, like 2-3 times and circle of scorn. don't use ultimatum and provoke (except you already have lost enmity).


(btw you are using AGAIN the wrong thread / chat channel)

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Originally Posted by DiamondOrion

hi, I have been leveling up my pld and is currently level 65. During "Shisui of the Violet Tides" I received a complain from a group member stating that I wasn't holding agro I even got insulted but I didn't respond. I use ultimatum, flash, and provoke to start a pull then spam savage, fast, riot, and rage of halone to hold. What am I doing wrong? your advice is needed, Zexy

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You just need to spam flash.......

QoL for Paladin?
-Lower Bulwark CD to 90 seconds
-Lower Tempered Will CD to 60 seconds
-Add some sort of personal TP refresh skill for when you`re doing content that doesn't provide usage of Holy Spirit.

I would love for Bulwark to be either 100% blocking or a 2 minute cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Tint

ultimatum and provoke don't generate enmity. they give you the same enmity the party member with the highest enmity has +1, wich means they do basically nothing when you already have enmity or when you try to pull with these skills - they give you face-aggro, nothing more.

use more flash, like 2-3 times and circle of scorn. don't use ultimatum and provoke (except you already have lost enmity).


(btw you are using AGAIN the wrong thread / chat channel)

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Shield Lob is also great for corralling stray Mobs. One hit generally gets them back on track.

Shield lob everything.

Bulwark, for its long recast, should have a secondary effect like recovering TP/HP per block (like 1.0 Bulwark/Aegis Boon). But without anything like that, then just bring the recast down.

I'd like some personal gain to PLD from Divine Veil as well. I'd take anything.