DPS is the job of DPS.

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11-20-2017, 04:15 PM
Sylvina

DPS is the job of DPS.

it is not the healers job. it is not the tanks job.

Should the healer and tank strive to do as much dps as possible? SURE! as long as they are also performing their actual job first and foremost. and their ACTUAL job should be the first thing people look at when looking for a tank or healer.
11-20-2017, 04:16 PM
Oscura

Did we really need another thread about this? There is already TWO other threads full of DPS debate on the front page of General Discussion.
11-20-2017, 04:16 PM
Sylvina

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oscura

Did we really need another thread about this?

Why not? MUWAHAHAHAHA!
11-20-2017, 04:18 PM
Zarabeth

Because it's pointless and annoying?
11-20-2017, 04:20 PM
Squintina

I think DPSing is the mobs's job :D
11-20-2017, 04:22 PM
Dualgunner

Then why do people whine at me to verraise people?
11-20-2017, 04:31 PM
MoroMurasaki

I'm just going to start copy/pasting my responses into these (pointless) threads. The 'argument' of the opposition is literally always a combination of 'muh immersion', 'elitist expectations', and my personal favorite 'you don't pay my sub'....

How about we skip the next 100+ pages of arguing and agree no one is changing anyone's mind here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Then why do people whine at me to verraise people?

I don't know. Maybe whenever you find yourself with healers and tanks who don't dps then you shouldn't?
11-20-2017, 04:31 PM
Hruodig

Tank 1 can hold aggro and mitigate content perfectly well, while doing 3500ish dps.

Tank 2 also holds aggro and mitigates, while doing 2500 dps.

Which tank is preferable to have in your party?
11-20-2017, 04:35 PM
Lodinn

Yeah instead of commenting in those other threads let's make a comment-worthy (and TS-unworthy) post more visible. GG.
/thread
11-20-2017, 04:36 PM
Awful

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hruodig

Tank 1 can hold aggro and mitigate content perfectly well, while doing 3500ish dps.

Tank 2 also holds aggro and mitigates, while doing 2500 dps.

Which tank is preferable to have in your party?

Neither tank because the Drg was dead at the start of the pull, the healers are admiring their glamours, and the Smn is RPing Yuna with the Rdm who is healing with Vercure and the Blm doesn't have the Umbral Heart to leave the group.
11-20-2017, 04:45 PM
fumofu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hruodig

Tank 1 can hold aggro and mitigate content perfectly well, while doing 3500ish dps.

Tank 2 also holds aggro and mitigates, while doing 2500 dps.

Which tank is preferable to have in your party?

Don't have parser, don't see dps and don't care. As long as tank doing his job right or at least trying to do it right, even if failing - it's ok.
And even if I could see dps numbers, would be no different. Not like tank dps is super important in content I'm doing. And i'm not doing savage nor current ex primal.
11-20-2017, 04:49 PM
MoroMurasaki

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awful

Neither tank because the Drg was dead at the start of the pull, the healers are admiring their glamours, and the Smn is RPing Yuna with the Rdm who is healing with Vercure and the Blm doesn't have the Umbral Heart to leave the group.

*looks away from the mirror after striking a /pose*

Huh? What? Someone pulled the boss? The RDM can heal it.

*back to the mirror*
11-20-2017, 04:52 PM
JohnnyDevo

My take on it was always this:

A tank can easily hold aggro by pushing just 3 buttons over and over.
A healer can easily keep people alive by pushing just 3 buttons over and over.

... Yet when the DPS pushes only 3 buttons over and over, they're being lazy.

This game, like it or not, is designed for people to push the damage. If you, as a tank or a healer, are doing the bare minimum and not using the rest of your effort to push the damage, I see you as just as bad as the black mage who only uses blizzard 2. You have abilities. You have tools. Not using them is basically saying you don't care about bringing as much to the table as you can.
11-20-2017, 04:57 PM
KaivaC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hruodig

Tank 1 can hold aggro and mitigate content perfectly well, while doing 3500ish dps.

Tank 2 also holds aggro and mitigates, while doing 2500 dps.

Which tank is preferable to have in your party?

Ughhh....don't start with the tank DPS numbers...we already have a pair of threads that won't die because of this. I like to argue, but even I had to bow out of that because of how splintered and confusing keeping track of every argument was. I think at one point, it even started an argument of burden of proof.
11-20-2017, 04:59 PM
MoroMurasaki

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Ughhh....don't start with the tank DPS numbers...we already have a pair of threads that won't die because of this. I like to argue, but even I had to bow out of that because of how splintered and confusing keeping track of every argument was. I think at one point, it even started an argument of burden of proof.

It did.

That's why I'm trying to actively reply with jokes in hopes others do as well.... Or we could be looking at another Great Healer DPS Debate (TM).
11-20-2017, 04:59 PM
Awful

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

*looks away from the mirror after striking a /pose*

Huh? What? Someone pulled the boss? The RDM can heal it.

*back to the mirror*

https://i.giphy.com/media/NGoJSKooSeeAw/giphy.webp

Accurate.
11-20-2017, 05:00 PM
Dualgunner

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Ughhh....don't start with the tank DPS numbers...we already have a pair of threads that won't die because of this. I like to argue, but even I had to bow out of that because of how splintered and confusing keeping track of every argument was. I think at one point, it even started an argument of burden of proof.

I think I recall the particular section of argument you're talking about. Somebody also called everybody arguing it "armchair lawyers", even though burden of proof is an element of all debate.
11-20-2017, 05:09 PM
KaivaC

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

It did.

That's why I'm trying to actively reply with jokes in hopes others do as well.... Or we could be looking at another Great Healer DPS Debate (TM).

Something tells me that it's about to happen. This is the third thread at a minimum in the last week. Might as well just make a full on overall debate thread and call it that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I think I recall the particular section of argument you're talking about. Somebody also called everybody arguing it "armchair lawyers", even though burden of proof is an element of all debate.

Armchair lawyers? *chuckles* The OF is a very entertaining place these days...used to be only the Tales from the Duty Finder that caught my interest.
11-20-2017, 05:12 PM
Dualgunner

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Something tells me that it's about to happen. This is the third thread at a minimum in the last week. Might as well just make a full on overall debate thread and call it that.

Armchair lawyers? *chuckles* The OF is a very entertaining place these days...used to be only the Tales from the Duty Finder that caught my interest.

I think in patch lulls the forums flare up. I know I certainly become more active because I get bored of the game, but retain my love for it so I stalk around here for fun.
11-20-2017, 05:14 PM
fumofu

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyDevo

My take on it was always this:

A tank can easily hold aggro by pushing just 3 buttons over and over.
A healer can easily keep people alive by pushing just 3 buttons over and over.

... Yet when the DPS pushes only 3 buttons over and over, they're being lazy.

This game, like it or not, is designed for people to push the damage. If you, as a tank or a healer, are doing the bare minimum and not using the rest of your effort to push the damage, I see you as just as bad as the black mage who only uses blizzard 2. You have abilities. You have tools. Not using them is basically saying you don't care about bringingcle as much to the table as you can.

And what if as tank I'm not confident enough that I can focus at keeping mobs on me, surviving and maxing dps at same time? Or I just haven't played for a long time? You don't really know player circumstances and don't really have a right to expect everyone to be on top of their game every time.
11-20-2017, 05:16 PM
Freyt

How about this.

Are you trying to do well? If yes, you're fine. If no, then you're trash.
Are you doing a good job? Yes, then you're fine. No, then you should brush up.
Are you doing bad if you have not achieved perfection? That's just a plain NO.
Are you someone that actively persecutes people? Yes, then calm down. No, you're fine.
Are you someone who feels a need for your party to be as skilled and as knowledgeable as you? Yes, then form a static. No, then you're good to go.

Don't be afraid to communicate, but realize that yelling at someone is not communication.
11-20-2017, 05:20 PM
Cakekizyy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hruodig

Tank 1 can hold aggro and mitigate content perfectly well, while doing 3500ish dps.

Tank 2 also holds aggro and mitigates, while doing 2500 dps.

Which tank is preferable to have in your party?

I vote Tank 2. Probably a more relaxed and fun run.

@Freyt. Yelling at someone is communication. It just might not be very effective communication.
11-20-2017, 05:21 PM
alimdia

OP made this thread because he didn't like the proof posted here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4486388
11-20-2017, 05:27 PM
Fhaerron

Actually it is important.

I'm pretty sure you have died to 1% enrage, wouldn't you have loved if you only did more DPS during the fight so there was no enrage?

And why do we have DPS stances? Why do we get abilities like Holy Spirit, Fell cleave, Souleater?
You have those buttons as a tank, why not press them?

And even when doing ez content (expert roulette for example) is it required? YES, why shouldn't you try your best? Why shouldn't you use everything at your disposal?
Why spend 30 mins in an expert when you can do it in 20 mins if you only do your best and DPS more?
I do an expert every evening why would I let it take 30 mins instead of 20? Per week that's over an hour of more time waisted. If you count that on a full year it's over 61 hours extra, pretty much tbh.
I have a pretty busy life and have other stuff to do, so I'm a fan of speed-clearing especially when it's ez content.

With same logic DPS people should let themselves die and not use their defensive cooldown because hey why use a 'tank button' when tanks shouldn't use 'DPS buttons'?
11-20-2017, 05:28 PM
Frizze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hruodig

Tank 1 can hold aggro and mitigate content perfectly well, while doing 3500ish dps.

Tank 2 also holds aggro and mitigates, while doing 2500 dps.

Which tank is preferable to have in your party?

Is either a lala? Initiate a vote kick if yes. Which one has the better glamour? Is it better then MY glamour? Initiate a vote kick if yes. If they are wearing unglamoured gear initiate a vote kick while explaining to them that theyre playing the game wrong. Do either of them have a funny name? If yes keep in party, commend, and friend list. So the better tank is the one who isnt a lala, has a good glamour but isnt prettier then me, and has a funny name. Simple. Someone add that to the tank guides.
11-20-2017, 05:32 PM
Squintina

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frizze

Is either a lala? Initiate a vote kick if yes. Which one has the better glamour? Is it better then MY glamour? Initiate a vote kick if yes. If they are wearing unglamoured gear initiate a vote kick while explaining to them that theyre playing the game wrong. Do either of them have a funny name? If yes keep in party, commend, and friend list. So the better tank is the one who isnt a lala, has a good glamour but isnt prettier then me, and has a funny name. Simple. Someone add that to the tank guides.

I think we'll have to argue on lala vs nonlala tank instead.

I think all tanks should be lalas, because they look yummier so more mobs want to go after them.
11-20-2017, 05:35 PM
Lodinn

Quote:

Originally Posted by alimdia

OP made this thread because he didn't like the proof posted here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4486388

Taika for OF president. That was a point well made.
So does someone from the Healer DPS Deniers Sect want to even the scales? There's a video evidence of healer being able to heal through the content with 17% total uptime.
Make a video of a run where you ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY couldn't spare a GCD to dps... And that'd make a point as well. So far all I'm hearing is "I can't heal for lyf don't expect me to dps REEEE".
And no, I've had runs where tanks were absolutely made of paper. Even if you do have to spam heals, not every run is like this. Over 99% of runs are not like this.
Or that's a bad lie right here.
11-20-2017, 05:43 PM
KaivaC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fhaerron

snip

Sometimes, I just want a relaxing run - so there have been some days when I don't throw absolutely everything I can. There have runs when I don't use Synergy, others when I don't bother to put down an Earthly Star...some where I don't even use an Aspected Helio - yet I easily get the job down while weaving in basic Malefic casts. The simple answer is...sometimes, I just don't want to go all out, especially with the daily grind for tomestones.

Note that I said sometimes.
11-20-2017, 05:55 PM
Squintina

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodinn

Taika for OF president. That was a point well made.
So does someone from the Healer DPS Deniers Sect want to even the scales? There's a video evidence of healer being able to heal through the content with 17% total uptime.
Make a video of a run where you ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY couldn't spare a GCD to dps... And that'd make a point as well. So far all I'm hearing is "I can't heal for lyf don't expect me to dps REEEE".
And no, I've had runs where tanks were absolutely made of paper. Even if you do have to spam heals, not every run is like this. Over 99% of runs are not like this.
Or that's a bad lie right here.

I don't have a vid but I had a run of a certain Hard trial that our 2 healers were healing all the time but couldn't keep up . To be honest, we were all not playing up to par, we had a lot of newer/returning players in the group, myself included, that were not dodging properly and messing up. It got so hard I, as summoner DPS, had to help out with heals, transfer mp, and do multiple rezzes - sometimes even without swiftcast, especially if it was a tank - in order to succeed (and got no comms...grr..but I digress).
So they didn't have time to DPS.

Of course that's not the norm, but sometimes stuff happens.

Also let's make this happen:
#DPS-heals
(just kidding)
11-20-2017, 05:56 PM
KittyPr

i prefere a healer who doesn't DPS than a healer who doesnt know that he has Esuna
/discuss
11-20-2017, 05:58 PM
Fhaerron

Quote:

Originally Posted by KittyPr

i prefere a healer who doesn't DPS than a healer who doesnt know that he has Esuna
/discuss

You can still keep casting stone after Esuna/cure.

/discuss
11-20-2017, 05:59 PM
Neophyte

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hruodig

Tank 1 can hold aggro and mitigate content perfectly well, while doing 3500ish dps.

Tank 2 also holds aggro and mitigates, while doing 2500 dps.

Which tank is preferable to have in your party?

This.

Second ones are like cars with broken radio, air conditioning, signals and only one gear. Sure, they still do their job (driving), but they're still broken.
11-20-2017, 06:04 PM
Frizze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squintina

I think we'll have to argue on lala vs nonlala tank instead.

I think all tanks should be lalas, because they look yummier so more mobs want to go after them.

You make a good point about looking yummy for the monsters. They probly would want an appetizer(lala) before moving on to the main course(taller, meatier, better looking party members). But i worry that while the lalatank is being chewed up i might get lala juice on my outfit. Id have to burn it and get a new one. That can get annoying and expensive.
11-20-2017, 06:09 PM
MoroMurasaki

Since we're going to bring up Taika's 17% run and the OP of this thread's reaction to that evidence I thought it was a great time to make good on my copy/pasting of prior arguments... This ws my response to the OP of tie thread calling Taika's post on 17% healing uptime "bullshit".

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

"I don't like facts that are inconvenient to my narrative, must be untrue despite fflog/video evidence."

C'mon there buddy, I know irrefutable evidence is inconvenient when it's supporting your opposition but to call a perfectly fine example of an experiment by a very respected forum user 'bullshit' is really childish.

Will every expert roulette only require 17% healing? No, but Taika didn't say that, the point was made that this one did. Maybe that Savage prog BLM tipped the scales with great DPS. Maybe the WAR could have been more conservative in his pulls to require even less healing. The point is not that every expert roulette requires 17% healing uptime but rather that if a dungeon can be completed at 17% then it seems insane to argue any healer doesn't have the time to throw in some DPS.

The point is simple - if Taika can heal an expert roulette with 17% uptime any healer can heal expert roulette with under 80% healing GCDs. What do you do with that leftover time?

Well you could /manderville or actually contribute to the party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KittyPr

i prefere a healer who doesn't DPS than a healer who doesnt know that he has Esuna
/discuss

Wait I have esuna? O.o
11-20-2017, 06:31 PM
Zeonsilt

As it was said numerous times, prepare to DPS as a tank or healer in Savage content. Especially if it's new Raid Tier and everyone is undergeared.

Apart from that -> it doesn't really matter, but it helps to speed up things and, usually, people really appreciated it.

p.s. It's always nice to encounter healers, who can pull 2500+ DPS, while keeping your party alive.
Kudos to those players.
11-20-2017, 06:33 PM
Mirch

I agree with OP
11-20-2017, 06:42 PM
Taika

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeonsilt

As it was said numerous times, prepare to DPS as a tank or healer in Savage content. Especially if it's new Raid Tier and everyone is undergeared.

Yup, going to quote myself from another recent discussion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taika

Content is only designed without the healer DPS in mind if the group is above the item level available to them when the content is released ("assumed item level" in that quote) and both DDs and tanks are pulling at least 85-90% of their calculated optimal DPS (and I'm fairly certain that calculated optimal DPS is somewhat far from a human player's reach).

Reducing this to "fights are designed to be beaten without healer DPS" is, even if theoretically true in a sense, completely misleading. In reality, if you really leave the group DPS as the DPS and tank players' responsibility, in many fights this means expecting them to be amongst the top 10% of all the players in the whole world, while at the same time you're allowing your healers to be significantly less active and perform in a way lower level. I don't see a reasonable argument for how this kind of distribution of responsibilities could be justified.

For example, OS4 requires a bit more than 23K DPS without limit break. If we assume the healers do 0 DPS and tanks do 5k total, that leaves 4.5k for each DD. That would currently put a RDM or BRD in top 11% of all the RDM/BRD players in the world, and even a DRG in top 21%. And this is now, when we're at item level 340 (with i345 weapons), when the content has been released when we were 20 item levels lower - so when the content was just released it would have required much more from the DDs.

This is one of the reasons why FFlogs is a great tool: if there's a healer or tank player who's thinking that it's not their responsibility to take part in the group DPS effort, they can check the fight's DPS requirements and then see what they're asking from their DDs in terms of performance if they refuse to participate - and at the same time it tells them the potential their job could bring in the group if they would be willing to give that effort.

In general, I find it best to think "what can me and my job do for this party to make this run go as well as possible", and then take following that as your job instead of limiting yourself to some arbitrary trope. Of course this doesn't mean you should give your 100% on every expert run or play your job optimally, but just try to be at least somewhat useful in all the ways your job is capable of being. :) (And before someone starts directing this comment off track, I really do mean you should try to be useful, which does not mean you should be healing as a RDM when you could be more useful DPSing, or DPSing as a healer when those heals are really needed...)
11-20-2017, 06:59 PM
Kewitt

SE please use 512 bit encryption on all logs to put these issue to bed. FF-XIV log wouldn't be used to split the community.
11-20-2017, 07:00 PM
popotaro

https://i.gyazo.com/be939c9e9b0c61c0...a17ef4a44d.png
11-20-2017, 07:23 PM
akaneakki

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sylvina

it is not the healers job. it is not the tanks job.

Should the healer and tank strive to do as much dps as possible? SURE! as long as they are also performing their actual job first and foremost. and their ACTUAL job should be the first thing people look at when looking for a tank or healer.

I just ran a 50-60 roulette where: Tank AND healer did more than the MNK. Mnk didn't do his job as dps then. No aoe, didn't keep up demolish on boss fights. Explain to me how the tank never died when the healer did nearly twice as much as the MNK. While the healer did her/his duty as healer while doing a good chunck of damage that you also said, is a dps job, but they never did it. Explain, I want your expertise.

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