Gods of Mhach and Skalla

Decidedly minor details being asked here and I'm likely overthinking lol, but these had been bugging me for a while. :D

Reading the section on the Fifth Astral Era in the Encyclopedia, it was mentioned that as civilization recovered from the Age of Endless Frost, cities sprung up once more and each took a specific deity as patron. At some point there are 12 cities, one for each god. Amdapor has Nophica, and Nym has Oschon.

But how about Mhach? Unless I missed it (in book and in-game), there's no mention of Mhach worshiping a specific god. With Belah'dia founded by survivors of Mhach, and eventually leading to Ul'dah, is it possible that the worship of Nald'thal is one of the things their descendants 'inherited'? Or, as they grew in power and learned to leash voidsent, did they abandon religion altogether, confident in their own abilities (nothing but speculation, but I find it interesting)?

Then there's Skalla. Based from the brief lore description in the 4.1 site, it was founded at the start of the Fifth Astral Era but it was already ruined by the time the floodwaters rolled along. Based on what we have seen of the place, who could the Skallic patron god be? Granted, we know so little of Skalla and while we may know more if Skalla HM ever happens, I'm not going to hold my breath. Thoughts with all of these?

Concerning how much Mhach delved into the void, it's possible that they worshiped Zodiark. Ascian involvement would explain how they got so good at Void magic and how they came to control Ozma. As for Skalla, no clue. They could have worshiped Ralgr but, as you said, we know too little to surmise.

Zodiark is not a member of the Twelve though which is a different pantheon to Zodiark and Hydaelyn - also until recently Zodiark's existence wasn't even known by anyone on Hydaelyn, the Ascians were surprisingly vague about the actual identity of their 'one true god'.

Mhach's guardian deity could be possibly Althyk, given he is the god of time and space (Louisiox after all evoked Althyk's power to send Derplander and his friends 1.0 players who satisfied the requirements five years into the future during the Calamity), so it does ring true.

Also it was stated way back on the original 1.0 website and 1.0 supplementary materials even before 1.0 was released that Eorzea has been in a constant and ceaseless state of flux concerning civilizations rising and falling since the end of the Age of the Gods, and each stated as taking a guardian deity of the Twelve since the very first Astral Era (as they took the wars of the realm to actually be wars of the heavens).

Really the current state of Eorzea being somewhat united (or at least allied with each other) is therefore rather unprecedented, but there is nothing like a common enemy or threat to unite people that normally wouldn't speak to each other.

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Originally Posted by TensaiSogetsu

As for Skalla, no clue. They could have worshiped Ralgr but, as you said, we know too little to surmise.

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Unfortunately there's no evidence for the Skallans to worship Rhalgr. True, Ala Mhigo does and is built on top of it, but that's because the Ala Mhigans were "led" to where they built the city by Rhalgr, well after Skalla had been submerged.

Which is why I said "no clue".

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Originally Posted by Yuriane

the Ala Mhigans were "led" to where they built the city by Rhalgr, well after Skalla had been submerged.

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Reading something like this, when I apply the context of the Ishgardian scripture also containing the tale of their patron deity leading their people somewhere, only for that to turn out to be a lie to cover up the truth, makes me wonder if the Ala Mhigan legends weren't a complete lie too. Maybe they were the ones who wiped out Skalla, built Ala Mhigo on top of it, and then created that legend to cover it up.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

Reading something like this, when I apply the context of the Ishgardian scripture also containing the tale of their patron deity leading their people somewhere, only for that to turn out to be a lie to cover up the truth, makes me wonder if the Ala Mhigan legends weren't a complete lie too. Maybe they were the ones who wiped out Skalla, built Ala Mhigo on top of it, and then created that legend to cover it up.

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Well, it might be and it might not be. Could be that they were refugees from the Shroud, lead east by a wizard with a big beard and lightning powers who they believed to be Rhalgr in order to escape the rising water levels of the Sixth Umbral Calamity, who in truth was the inspiration for the Sylphic Deity Ramuh. In fact that could work into another theory, an edit of the theory that Ramuh is a Sylphic interpretation of Rhalgr and suggesting that instead the modern interpretation of Rhalgr and Ramuh were in fact both based on mage who both birthed the Sylphs and directed refugees to Gyr Abania. Might have even been a guilt ridden Mhachi Sorcerer due to the use of Lightning (a typically Thaumatrugic Element) and the Comet which directed the refugees to Ala Mhigo (Comets often being synonymous in common language with Meteor which is a Black Magic Spell)

Getting away from that though because that was supposed to just be a quick thought before it turned into a theory. To provide an answer to your theory that the Ala Mhigans destroyed Skalla, it's possible but it's definitely not why Skalla is ruined. They might have destroyed the remnants but city itself was built in a ravine which subsequently flooded during the Sixth Umbral Calamity, so at best the Ala Mhigans finished the job.

It's canon that Skalla's population was wiped out/left due to war before it was flooded. So Ala Mhigo didn't even exist yet.

Althyk as the god of Mhach makes sense, since the people did reach through time and space between the worlds to attain voidsent. Could also be Rhalgr, given the destructive power of their black magic.

Skalla could be among the cities that was destroyed during the early wars of the 5th Astral Era (when the 12 cities were in the process of being reduced to 6) or even during the War of the Magi itself (after all, the conflict spanned centuries). I was hoping that the ruins would provide clues of Skallic culture, but other than the impressive stonework, there isn't much. The treasures along the hallways, the mummies, and runes seem to be of Ala Mhigan origin. The Old One boss though -- it looks like a giant (malfunctioning) mammet-golem? I was wondering whether it's a Skallic or Ala Mhigan creation. If the former, does it point towards a clue to Skallic technology (and, while reaching, a connection to Byregot)? Or is it an Ala Mhigan guardian placed there to guard the door that should never be opened (as behind lies the secrets of the Ala Mhigan royals)? It does transform you into a spriggan with a 'hex', which is exactly what the last king's thaumaturge did to the other members of the royal family...

Random note: The locations in the Skalla dungeon have some pretty cryptic and unsettling names. Lookback Cave, the Green Screams, Salvation, a Door Unopened, Condemnation...it sounds fitting for someone being brought there during Ala Mhigan times and slowly realizing their fate.

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Originally Posted by Yuriane

They might have destroyed the remnants but city itself was built in a ravine which subsequently flooded during the Sixth Umbral Calamity, so at best the Ala Mhigans finished the job.

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Fair enough, there's also eleven centuries or so between the time of Skalla's destruction and the foundation of Ala Mhigo the kingdom, proper, so the people there weren't Ala Mhigans, technically. It's fun to come up with conspiracy theories like these, though. As long as nobody takes them too seriously.

I just find it slightly suspicious how oddly peaceful and vague the legend is. I mean all it says is, Rhalgr (a lightning god that's called the Destroyer, of all things) simply leads his chosen people to a certain place? Doesn't even ask or demand them to murder anybody? Eorzea in general has a very bloody history, that it works hard to cover up. We all know about Ishgard, Ul'dah rewrote the history of a bioweapon their ancestors created and used, Limsa Lominsa was built by invading and occupying the kobolds' territory, and Gridania's probably only as peaceful as it was (in comparison) because it had the elementals to obey, and even then it's basically an entire nation built on a cult. So what's to say that Ala Mhigo doesn't have something equally ugly hiding in its closet?

Who says it's hiding in it's closet? It's right out there in the open. Ala Mhigo is a barren land and the thing they are best known for are their mercenaries since that's one of the easier things to do there and get money from. Both refugees from Mach and Ampador fled there, so who knows how long it took them to sort things out. The situation when Nyunkrepf landed there had descended into war so much that he and the people he saved from the flood went back to Sharlayan. It even takes 1100 years since the 6th Astral Era started for the actual city/country of Ala Mhigo to be properly founded since there was so much in-fighting within the country over resources. Oh, and Illsabard has been invading their northern border off and on this entire time as well... honestly, Ala Mhigo is so okay with it's martial history that I'd think they'd be celebrating Rhalgr upending the original Ala Mhigans if that had happened.

Not sure about Skalla, since the part we visit was repurposed by Ala Mhigo. For Mhach, there were questions about statues seen in the Mhach raid series (example); not sure if we got a Koji Komment (a Fernehalwes Affirmation?) though.
As for getting clues from their descendants, Gyr Abania and Belahdia seem pretty different, so I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from there. E.g. Gyr Abania is Mhachi, but has Amdapori influence too, (and in more recent times at least, a focus on Rhalgr). Belahdia on the other hand (and Uldah and Sildih) are big on the scales-motif (but wasn't Qarn also part of that "Azyma sun symbol in Allagan ruins" quandry?), but I can't remember if anything was said about other influences.

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Originally Posted by TensaiSogetsu

Concerning how much Mhach delved into the void, it's possible that they worshiped Zodiark. Ascian involvement would explain how they got so good at Void magic and how they came to control Ozma. As for Skalla, no clue. They could have worshiped Ralgr but, as you said, we know too little to surmise.

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In addition to what Enkidoh said, it's worth noting that Zodiark has nothing to do with the Void - except in the sense that the creation of the Void (ie, the corruption of the 13th Shard) actively hindered the Ascians' plan to resurrect their god. There may or may not have been Ascian interference in their civilization, but an obsession with the Void wouldn't have led to Zodiark worship.

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Originally Posted by Apoptomon

As for getting clues from their descendants

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While I'm just having a quick look I wanted to put something in here.

It is theorized I believe by Surito Carito that the surviving Mhachi fled to Thanalan and founded Belah'dia.

The White Mages of Amdapor probably fled underground resulting in the Gelmorans, they seem to be good at making subterranean wards (ei their dungeons)

The few surviving Nymians likely took to the seas and eventually returned to Vyllbrand around the same time Limsa Lominsa was founded, long forgetting their history

Gyr Abania was inhabited by both refugees of Mhach and Amdapor, with a little more of the Mhachi I reckon given that the common name for the region is in the Mhachi tongue. But the Amdaporians likely were more involved in the founding of Ala Mhigo as Amdapor was predominately Hyurian if I recall.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Who says it's hiding in it's closet? It's right out there in the open. Ala Mhigo is a barren land and the thing they are best known for are their mercenaries since that's one of the easier things to do there and get money from. Both refugees from Mach and Ampador fled there, so who knows how long it took them to sort things out. The situation when Nyunkrepf landed there had descended into war so much that he and the people he saved from the flood went back to Sharlayan. It even takes 1100 years since the 6th Astral Era started for the actual city/country of Ala Mhigo to be properly founded since there was so much in-fighting within the country over resources. Oh, and Illsabard has been invading their northern border off and on this entire time as well... honestly, Ala Mhigo is so okay with it's martial history that I'd think they'd be celebrating Rhalgr upending the original Ala Mhigans if that had happened.

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To add on this, the religion of Rhalgr values strength. In order to 'destroy', one must be 'strong'. The burning comet mentioned in the Ala Mhigan myths led them not into a fertile land of bounty, but to a harsh land of jagged peaks and dry wastes. An environment like this would only permit the strong to thrive. While the 'people following a comet' story might sound tame for a deity of destruction, it did lead to centuries of tribal warfare and the creation of a culture valuing martial strength.

Now I wonder whether Gyr Abania in the time of the 5th Astral Era was the same dry, dusty mountainous region that it is right now. Scarce resources would mean warfare between its inhabitants, which (again, reaching) may lean towards the worship of warlike deities like Rhalgr or Halone.

I'm also wondering if the Old One boss in Skalla was Skallic or Ala Mhigan. It's reminiscent of those laser pots in Amdapor, though it's kind of a...mammet? It could be a guardian placed there by the Ala Mhigan royals to prevent trespassers from the underwater entrance to get into the royal tombs and treasury (it does curse you to transform to a spriggan, just like how a certain court thaumaturge cursed people to become monsters...). Alternatively, it was a Skallic creation and the reason why the Ala Mhigan influence (cursed ones, mummies, treasures) is restricted to one side of the dungeon -- the Ala Mhigans weren't able to open the Old One's door from their side, and never knew of the underwater entrance.

As another aside, beyond a defensive standpoint, why would anyone build a city in the bottom of a ravine? It struck me as something incredibly difficult, and the Skallic people built that city for centuries...

I have often wondered about who the mhachi worshiped if they indeed worshiped any deity. Rhalgr seems obvious to me being the deity of destruction. It would seem odd that ala mhigo would choose that same deity when they have more of an influence from monks.

The Old one could be a mhachi guard but we saw a working one in weeping city. The two could not be more different. I almost want to say Skalla used hexing magic but all that could of been because of the one thurmaturge in service to Theodic the mad king.

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Originally Posted by Yuriane

The White Mages of Amdapor probably fled underground resulting in the Gelmorans, they seem to be good at making subterranean wards (ei their dungeons)

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I thought Gelmorra was founded by elezen displaced by the hyuran migration that created Amdapor, it existed concurrently with the other cultures rather than being a direct result of the floods. Some amdapori came to them for refuge but they weren't founders.

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Originally Posted by Gilded

Now I wonder whether Gyr Abania in the time of the 5th Astral Era was the same dry, dusty mountainous region that it is right now. Scarce resources would mean warfare between its inhabitants, which (again, reaching) may lean towards the worship of warlike deities like Rhalgr or Halone.

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The BLM quests tell us that Gyr abania actually looks better now then back then when Mhach was still fine.