Ever since the introduction of jobs into the XIV universe, it's always puzzled me how we never had any job specific traits. I'm not talking about those crappy second rate traits that we have now, but more so the ones that have made every job in the Final Fantasy series feel special and unique. Heavensward made it even more apparent as it was the so-called expansion that tried to promote how cool drg was. And just look how well that went? A drg without some kind of advantage over dragons and wyrm type mobs.
To get straight to my point, while XIV jobs are cool and all, they each lack that certain something makes each job special. These are what make and has made these jobs special in the franchise and SHOULD be there. So dear devs, could you please consider this as we make our way to future patches/expansions?
Job Specific Traits?
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11-06-2017, 11:27 AMEvogolistJob Specific Traits?
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11-06-2017, 11:44 AMFallenArisen0990
Their answer to this, is the same as to all the other questions we asked them. They don't want people to start favoring one job more than the other. That they don't want players to feel left'd out or left'd behind.
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11-06-2017, 12:41 PMEvogolistThis has always sounded like a cop out to me. The community/players will always find some reason to choose one job/class over another, whether it be the actual or superficial. That in itself, goes far beyond giving a class/job a specific trait. Heck, we see all the time in /shouts and party finders, even here on the forums. So again, it has and always will sound like a cop out excuse for not to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990
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11-06-2017, 01:21 PMbass9020
Wont ever happen. All jobs are made to be almost identical to each other this way every job is viable to all content. I mean we don't even have an elemental wheel anymore for elements.
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11-06-2017, 02:23 PMSigiriaThis, SE feared that kind of thing would lead to some jobs being excluded from some content.Quote:
Originally Posted by bass9020
And when you see that there is people already excluding jobs for a dps gap so tiny it wouldn't make any content noticeably more difficult, can you really blame them? -
11-06-2017, 02:24 PMEnlaWhich always confused me because it's still there in the character creation screen when you pick your god.Quote:
Originally Posted by bass9020
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11-06-2017, 02:47 PMJoe777
Job Traits may create a little imbalance, but job aesthetics wouldn't. Right now the only job with something special is Ninja because they do a flip when they jump while their weapons are drawn. No other job really has anything aesthetically unique to it... For example, make Dragoons jump a bit higher than other jobs.
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11-06-2017, 03:17 PMHyoMinParkWhile there is some truth to that, giving a specific job an affinity over a specific mob type would for sure ensure that it will be taken into specific types of content over other jobs. Give SMNs an affinity over primals? They’ll be in every trial at the possible exclusion of the other casters. Give BRDs an affinity to sing mobs to sleep a la Jigglypuff? Why take a MCH when we can have a BRD sleep the bosses? Give a DRG an affinity over dragons? You’re basically ensuring they’re taken into Ultimate for that reason, or any other content with a wyrm/dragon type boss. Really, though, these such affinities have about as much use in FFXIV as the elemental affinities do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evogolist
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11-06-2017, 03:35 PMBillyKaplan
Allow me to share one of my low points in the game to show why this is a bad thing, not from an advantage point, but a disadvantage. I took my BLM into Castrum Abania blind when I was doing MSQ. You get to the second boss who's suddenly all "ha ha ha I'm reflecting your fire/ice/lightning spells. You know, BLM, everything you have in your kit." I panicked a little so it took me a bit to realize there were battle-specific buffs involved and that's what the game meant with the reflect thing. Imagine them expanding that to your actual kit. And lbh, you can't have a system where classes have advantages without also active disadvantages, and no one wants that.
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11-06-2017, 05:11 PMEvogolist
I get what you all are saying, but it just eats at me. For all of that, why even allow us to change classes/jobs on the go? Or for that matter allow us to level multiple classes/jobs on one character? It might as well be and play like every other theme-park MMO out there. It takes away the special parts of what Final Fantasy jobs are about. Forgive me if I'm stuck too much on the old days of Final Fantasy, but at times it just feels like a normal theme park mmo with a final fantasy skin and name slapped onto it.
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11-06-2017, 05:23 PMJoe777Quite a few Final Fantasy games allow you to change jobs freely actually, with the exception of FF3 which required Job Points to be able to switch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evogolist
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11-06-2017, 05:54 PMHasrat
The difference is, old Final Fantasy was solo. Add other players to the mix, and you can't just throw in any gimmick class just because it sounds fun. Solo, you can play around with your style free as you please, come up with any weird setup you want. You're enjoying the game the way you want to enjoy it. But as soon as your enjoyment can limit others', things get toned down.
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11-06-2017, 06:11 PMCorbinDallas
I mean, don't ninjas get reduced fall damage and increased movement speed as traits? Which, correct me if I'm wrong, are generally pointless at the end of the day?
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11-06-2017, 06:17 PMJoe777If you consider you use more than 1 character then in an MMO that's like multi-boxing in a sense. However, take into account games like Final Fantasy Explorers and you'll see it isn't as different as you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasrat
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11-06-2017, 06:36 PMBillyKaplanBecause it makes no sense I'll have to create another character if it turns out the class I picked for myself originally turned out to not be fun or was changed later on like bow mage in HW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evogolist
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11-06-2017, 06:51 PMEnlaHell, some of the most beloved battle systems had this exact mechanic. FFV and FFX-2 are generally praised more for their job systems which influenced FFXIV than for anything else in my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe777
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11-06-2017, 07:33 PMXlantaa
This has been designed to have all the jobs the same value in a party. If you have a Dragoon which "Dragonkiller" trait that makes them more effective against dragons, then on Coil of Bahamut, which is full of dragons, everyone will get Dragoon, making other classes excluded from than content. This is a multiplayer game, you cannot make one job better than other for certain task. You're playing with other people with their own jobs. On single player game can work, on online games not, since balance is needed. It is the same for another discussion. The elemental damage. The reason we don't have elemental weakness or resistances is beucase that can cause jobs to be useless or very powerful agains a specific enemy. Imagine a boss with resistante 100% to all elements. You cannot get a Black mage or Red Mages, most of their spells will deal 0 damage, making useless that job. Of coruse we can fix it give more skills with no elements, but we enter again in the HW problems and the vast amount of skills. Current traits are treated around a job specific mechanics, which not affect the party composition or enemy you're fighting. From a MMO point of view, the traits you describe is a very bad design idea.
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11-06-2017, 07:36 PMJoe777That isn't entirely true. People will still want jobs that add utility, like Ninja. What it would mean though is they will want to have a Dragoon around to support and it'd be the main DPS of that raid. But the point does still stand that giving jobs an edge over certain things isn't gonna happen, since as was stated already it's similar to elements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xlantaa
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11-06-2017, 07:40 PMXlantaaNinja has some advantage on AoE evasion, true (or monks with the Fist or Wind), but that's all. Fall damage reduction is not really useful on duty, only on open world.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorbinDallas
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11-06-2017, 07:43 PMJandor
Dragoon getting a fancy jump animation would be nice flavour.
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11-06-2017, 09:01 PMKageTokageIt's also advantageous in frontlines due to allowing you to take routes that would cripple or kill the other classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xlantaa
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11-06-2017, 11:13 PMErryK
Feels like a whole lot of something just for a whole lot of nothing.
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11-07-2017, 05:47 AMRitsukoSonoda
FFXI had elemental resistances and even general damage type resistances as well as an MMO which would effect party compositions depending on end game activity and even preferred exp locations for lvling up or earning merits. However it still didn't completely exclude jobs from content. However jobs in FFXI had more options. BLM, RDM, and SMN had every element available for magic. Physical damage jobs had weapon options that could change the type of physical damage they dealt between slashing, piercing, and blunt. Something we don't have in FFXIV. That said job specific traits and implementation of damage resistances would atleast shake up the end game "meta" making the ideal party comp change depending on content. As it is now jobs are chosen over others anyway for other reasons and that's always going to happen. The difference we have now is those reasons are the same for all content of that type.
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11-07-2017, 06:10 AMJijifliYes, jobs will be picked over others for one reason or another. But that reason shouldn't be because the boss is a specific enemy type.Quote:
Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda
Imagine you're in a raid team, focused on 100% effectiveness. The team goes the meta, and enjoy their jobs too. Your melee dps end up being Samurai and Ninja. You beat rooms 1 and 3, but come room 3, the boss is a Dragon. Statistics say double DRG is better than any melee combo in the fight because of the DRG trait to kill dragons quicker.
Are you going to force the SAM and NIN to change to DRG, just for the fight? Are you going to replace them completely if they say no?
That's what these traits can do. The current special traits given to ninja barely effect a fight at all. But if the trait isn't even noticeable, how is it anything special like anyone wants? -
11-07-2017, 09:49 AMAlacran
Are we talking about cosmetic traits? If so, i feel a few additions would be very welcome. As mentioned before while Ninja have their weapons drawn they do a flip while running, could the same not be done with a Dragoon jumping with it's polearm drawn (jump animation off the ground-> landing animation change), or certain emotes added to every job that can only be done while that job stone is equipped (as is done in FFXI).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II8pZ_mG6f0 -
11-07-2017, 01:36 PMRitsukoSonodaKiller traits in FFXI actually didn't do anything noticeable for damage or resistance against specific monsters. They really only came into play soloing unless you were a PLD which got undead killer. What killer traits did is create an x% chance of intimidating that type of enemy making it lose an action if it attacked the person with the trait. So really you're blowing it out of proportion. Damage output was more a matter of damage types/elements vs the resistances of the enemies you were fighting. Which doesn't exist in this game for the most part aside from certain enemies using buffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jijifli
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11-07-2017, 01:39 PMBigRed5392
i rather they limit the "flavor of the month" the best they can, it can ruin good mmo for people. it was pretty bad in ff11, and lets not forget the blm only garuda fights in 1.0
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11-07-2017, 02:37 PMSenorPattyI can't agree with any of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evogolist
First of all, aesthetically speaking, every job is unique from one another, starting with designs to animations. There is the caveat of SCH/SMN and the summoning act but that's where it ends.
Secondly, in terms of gameplay, specific traits that would give an advantage over a type of content just leads to promoting exclusion. Looking at your main class just from the profile, if such a thing existed, you'd be the first one out of the door in favor of a drg.
"I'll just switch to a drg then" You could tell yourself and maybe that'd be fine...and then it would rarely see the light of day for anything else outside dragon slaying.
So if you could suggest something that would make jobs even more special (aesthetically) than they are now, feel free to suggest. Or elaborate why they don't feel/look special. -
11-07-2017, 02:48 PMVandrilWas advantageous in Frontlines. Since they overhauled the PvP system in Stormblood, that trait no longer exists in Frontlines.Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
...I miss it. -
11-07-2017, 02:56 PMJijifliI wouldn't say I'm throwing it out of proportion. If it's just cosmetic I don't have an argument, but if they did put in something where, say, DRG did more damage to Dragon/Wyrm enemies, you'd get two situations. Either it's not noticeable, in which case what was the point wasting design time on it instead of something more useful, or it is noticeable, and it excludes some people for not playing that job even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda
I don't know. Maybe I get scared because people want elemental immune enemies. -
11-07-2017, 07:09 PMBigRed5392umm so..... loldrg /kick was never a thing you saw? or lolpup? lolmnk? bst never got parties due to the exp reduction, I recall rdm who melee get kicked. I saw ppl vilified smn for not healing and doing their summons. what about blm that couldn't get pt during the colibri meripo?Quote:
Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda
ppl excluded jobs in ff11 :) i had first hand experience when i used to main mnk when "lolmnk" was a thing. it took me 8 hrs to get an exp party on a good day. :) -
11-07-2017, 10:24 PMTalraenI'm curious what you think "Final Fantasy jobs are about." The example you gave, where Dragoons could have an advantage over dragons, isn't particularly universal. It's in FFXI, but I don't remember it appearing anywhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evogolist
The thing that defines the Final Fantasy series is that each game makes its own rules, particularly when it comes to the combat and leveling systems. I think FFXIV has done a good job of keeping the essence of each job. Dragoon, for instance, has always been about using spears and Jump. Well, except FF2, where they were introduced, where they did neither, but did have a wyvern... which is something only seen one other time, in FFXI. Which is kind of the point.
Also even if FF jobs really were so specific and consistent that they "should" have the types of abilities that make a specific job favored in an MMO context, FFXIV is smart not to have those things, because they're not good game design in an MMO. -
11-08-2017, 01:25 AMFelis
Maybe if the devs allow job change during dungeons again.
Enter dungeon -> DPS players change to BLM to cast away the pulls -> first boss -> DPS players change to a single target job to hit the boss hard -
11-08-2017, 01:55 AMTalraenThen instead of needing one specific job, you'd need to level multiple specific jobs. Not an improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
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11-08-2017, 02:59 AMEvogolist
If implemented right, job specific traits should only provide a slight boost to the job and not be a complete game changer. Given how XIV's formulas work, it would probably be barely noticeable. Say for example, the use of "insert said action here" would have certain percentage chance of procing that job trait. Many classes/jobs already work like that.
To be honest though, it depends on the person behind that job build. A drg with dragon killer could still be outclassed by someone on any of the other dps classes if the person playing that drg is bad and/or not performing well. The same goes for any other job. -
11-08-2017, 03:20 AMLewtskie
As people have pointed out, if its not something that noticeable or a game changer in combat, why take the time to make it; would seem like a waste. Now, more aesthetic differences or things not pertaining to combat sounds like a good thing. Things like the Ninja having a unique jump animation, and come 4.15 we'll see if the musical feature requires you to play a BRD or have BRD leveled. Such little things like that would be cool. I wouldn't be adverse to certain jobs getting this or that, WHM got a mount way back when for a side quest, maybe DRGs could have a side quest unlocked to only them where maybe they do get a Wyvern they can summon as a pet with actions, just no actual combat function.
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11-08-2017, 07:53 AMRitsukoSonodaThat again had nothing to do with job specific traits. It had to do with either the job kit or the type of damage the job excelled at. 5x DRG + BRD merit party on colibri was popular because DRG dealt high amounts of piercing damage which most bird enemies like Colibri had horrible resistance against. RNG also did huge amounts of damage to birds with bows however DRG was favored because they could sub WHM and self sustain easily thanks to their pet. Also a majority of your examples apply to only exp/merit parties. In actual endgame nothing was completely excluded or unviable. However like FFXIV some jobs saw infrequent use either because something else just did it better or in the case of BST it was viewed as a primarily solo content job by the community and only used in rare instances where disposable pets made things easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed5392
As for the wait on EXP parties. That was pretty much the DF of FFXI and the DPS queue sucked as bad or worse than it did in FFXI even when people finally figured out DPS cannon parties work. However if you were a RDM or BRD you had to go /anon if you wanted to do something on that job otherwise you were spammed non stop by /tells asking if you'll join their exp/merit party. -
11-08-2017, 03:23 PMGeminaI was never sure why this confounded some people. It was never meant to give you any kind of advantage. The God you choose and the element associated with him/her is meant to be the one you feel represents you the most. However, it is weird that elemental resistances are even in the game. I'm guessing it was something that was implemented in 1.0 that didn't get scrapped as the idea was to have an elemental wheel in 2.0, but later discarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enla
I do miss the wheel, but whoo-boy it's a lot of tiresome coding that I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to skip entirely. -
11-08-2017, 03:35 PMGeminaIn FFXI, I remember when leveling MNK, I used my 2-hour ability on a slime-type mob. If you recall, this ability had MNK throw an endless barrage of punches for the duration of the ability. Sounds awesome, right? Except MNKs punches were of the 'blunt' type, and slimes were resistant to that type. So despite being around level 15 and using my ultimate ability, this level 10 mob still wasted me. Now imagine the same thing in XIV, and the player who mains only a MNK, puts tons of hours in to get themselves a good spot in a raid, only to find out that the mobs are resistant to blunt damage?Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed5392
This in itself shows how square has grown and learned from previous mistakes. Resistances creates constraints that limits possible job compositions, and a 2-hour ability is just dumb, dumb, so freakinggggggg DUMB! Things like this SE can fix. A skewed meta however, well that's on the community. -
11-08-2017, 10:52 PMNora_of_MiraI think you missed the point on why we can "change classes/jobs on the go". THAT is in fact SE's view of customization, you can be w/e job you want at anytime. And that is WHY FFxiv is not like every other theme park MMO as older MMOs lock your character to one class/job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evogolist
edit: I'd also like to add Japanese developers generally stick to a "restaurant" philosophy when making games. Think of a fancy restaurant that prepares meals in a very particular way. They have a 100% complete idea of what they are serving, and what they think the customer is going to enjoy and they very rarely deviate from their design. Some restaurants will even deny you sugar or sauce after a certain time, depending on your meal because that's how important they take it. Generally, they think "we know what the player will enjoy more than the player". Western MMOs (and even Korean MMOs) favor the player a bit more and offer typically more customization.
Having played a ton of different MMOs, I've learned to really like FFxiv's direction overall because playerbases rarely know whats best (and to extend the analogy, customers too.)