I've recently come back to my Monk after shelving it for a few months to focus on gearing my Dragoon. Since getting back into the swing of things I have had a few thoughts I'd like to add to the (ever-growing) pool of thoughts/suggestions scattered across these forums.
The first thing that hit me? Holy heck - we have a lot of buttons to press during boss jumps / mechanics. I got to thinking (and counting on fingers) and we have anywhere between 1-5 Chakra to build as well as X form shifts to cycle so as to land us in Coeurl within 10 seconds on the boss landing - in further addition to possibly Riddle of Earth then finally Fists of Fire. That's many buttons to press...
While playing my Dragoon I have to press 1. Blood of the Dragon IF the generously long 20-30 second timer on it threatens to fall off.
Ninja's have 4 to press I think to just reapply Huton - Jin/Chi/Ten/ACTIVATE!
(NOTE: Jin/Chi/Ten/ACTIVATE is way faster than building 4 Chakra given the 0.50 CD)
Samurai - I don't play but several in /shout say they just hold Meditate which is a channeled ability? Maybe someone can elaborate (while staying on point).
So I toyed with the idea of changing Form Shift to a 90s cooldown ability that has the singular effect of allowing the use of any weaponskill for 10 seconds. With this change, the skill retains its original purpose entirely (to help keep GL up), but eliminates the annoyance of having to press this skill eleventy-one times to achieve that purpose.
Think about it:
-No more spamming Form Shift pre-boss pull while we try to gauge when the tank will pull.
-No more panicking to get into Coeurl form when the tank throws up a 5 second pull timer (while running towards the boss).
-No more spamming/juggling Form Shift/Meditation during jump phases, trying to time Coeurl form for the landing.
The lengthy cooldown means it can't be used as a method to get into GL 3 any faster than we can with it's original design. It would have a slightly positive relationship with Tornado Kick because we could theoretically Tornado Kick, Snap Punch, Form Shift, Snap Punch - taking us back to GL2 - which I consider a good thing given Tornado Kick is currently woefully underused. However, this won't always be beneficial - again, given the lengthy cooldown.
I want to offer my other suggestions, and may edit them in at a later time (since there is A LOT about this class that doesn't sit right at the moment), however let's address things one-by-one and seek simple solutions to cumbersome / awkward mechanics within the job.
So, all our other problems aside, what do you fellow Monks think of this suggestion. Is this a step that could be taken in a future QoL pass on the job?
Updated Thoughts on MNK. pt. 1: Form Shift
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11-03-2017, 05:42 AMBucklesTrespenUpdated Thoughts on MNK. pt. 1: Form Shift
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11-03-2017, 08:39 AMMauvaisOeilI think it would be way more interesting to have Form shift the same GCD as Meditation (1.2s), and shifting from Coeurl to Opo opo would give GL the same way using a skill in Coeurl from gives it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BucklesTrespen
That's quite a mess prepull, the GL stacks could then be "combat only", to avoid 10 shifts prepull over 12s for the 3 stacks of GL, but that would allow a WAY better conservation of GL at will during boss jumps, out of melee range or forced /sit.
What you propose, is just an other Perfect Balance with no identity. Form shift itself is not bad, but it's slow and offers nothing more than a thin security. We don't need 10 skills mimmicking the same role (I'm looking at you, Perfect Riddle of Meditate-kick)
But clearer abilities offering different benefits, in different situations, with no competition between them.
FC could also offer a GL stack, making it a good recover if PB is not up, shifting during the boss jump to coeurl form then hitting demolish and FC for an instant 2 GL stacks. A quite good recovery. -
11-03-2017, 08:53 AMTigerlilley
Literally out of all the current problems with monk, this for me ranks as super low.
You press a button 8 times before a pull. You learn a fight so you don't have to panic your timing on boss jumps. Chakra refills itself (sometimes) during the battle. It's been said many times that monk is not built for casual content. In fact it's utter hell for casual content. The design flaws go a lot further than form shift.
Sure a shorter cooldown would be nice but it's not essential and doesn't address any problems long time players are posting about. -
11-03-2017, 10:07 AMKahnom
Just like above poster said.
Would be nice but not nescessary.
The true QOL for mnk right now is shorter riddle of earth's cooldown. -
11-03-2017, 07:25 PMSilver-StriderYou spelt Perfect Balance Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahnom
Honestly, there are a lot of QoL fixes for MNK that could be applied.
Simply doing away with form timers alone would be a godsend as that would eliminate the whole stance dancing pre-pull as you just hit it 3 times and are solid until the pull.
Extending the duration of GL in general would also greatly help as there'd be less need for maintenance skills like Riddle of Earth to even exist. Barring this, having Riddle of Earth apply the GL refresh both on activation and on hit would be a welcome alternative. -
11-04-2017, 10:00 AMKahnomPerfect Balance's cooldown will never be reduced.Same as the slow pace from Riddle of Fire,I mean if they're gonna fix it,it should be done by now.But there is a possibility for ROE's cooldown to get reduced in the future patch,I just try to be realistic here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Either they're gonna fix it or not,You still need to adjust yourself sooner or later and I'm sure all main monks are already do just that. -
11-06-2017, 03:40 AMXauyes, by maining other jobQuote:
Originally Posted by Kahnom
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11-06-2017, 07:10 AMSvabodnik
Form Shift is a lot more flexible than "get me to Coeurl" in the way it's implemented, allowing you to alter your stance regardless of enemy engagement, and for a multitude of reasons (i.e. forced away from the boss by an AoE after a Snap Punch, and Demolish is going to fall off soon? Go from Opo-opo to Raptor so when you reengage you can go straight to a True Strike > Demolish. Happens again a few seconds later? You can do it again!). Locking it behind a cooldown will give yet another CD which limits the monk kit once its been used (see: PB), rather than the how it currently is - you can do it at any point, as long as you have the time and mindfulness for it.
As a QoL change I can get behind, if out of combat you can get to max Chakra stacks with a single button press of Meditation and/or have a faster cast time for Form Shift, but the ability to manage your resource and stance during the downtimes in a fight actually makes monk more engaging to play, in my opinion, and helps distinguish it a bit from the other melee DPS jobs. Anyways, as has been said here, I'm seeing a few more glaring issues with MNK at the moment than simple QoL changes. -
11-06-2017, 08:22 AMMikey_R
I'll never understand why people hate form shift in its current state, it's a really good and useful ability to have and to lose it would be a kick in the teeth. It the boggles my mind on the weird ways they have to 'improve' it. No monk wants to lose the flexibility the skill gives, as Svabodnik stated, it's useful when you have to disengage for a bit to dodge an AoE or even doing mechanics. Having that ability restricted behind a lengthy cooldown defeats the entire point of the skill.
In the other topic, someone mentioned removing form shift and essentially replacing it with a trait that basically gives you permanent Opo-opo unless you are in raptor or coeurl, which is equally as stupid.
The only changes i can get behind are reducing the cooldown to the same as meditate and having it refresh GL3 when you form shift out of coeurl. If the refreshing GL happens, you then have more freedom to add new skills, Riddle of Earth will be useless, so we can get something to take it's place, Tornado Kick will also become pointless, but changing it to an AoE Chakra dump (which has been suggested) sorts that out.
Regardless, there are more important things to worry about the monks toolkit than Form Shift, which is arguably one of the best moves HW gave to Monk. -
11-06-2017, 12:41 PMKahnomThen that only means they don't actually love the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xau
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11-06-2017, 01:25 PMLeeraSorlanIf i eat chocolate cake for 3 years, and i love that chocolate cake, and then suddenly they remove the chocolate icing and replace it with literally poo. im not gonna eat that chocolate cake anymore, im going to go find a new better cake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahnom
a cake i used to love is now disgusting, and i no longer have the desire to eat it. it doesnt mean i didnt love the cake, it means they ruined it so much that the cake is no longer for me -
11-06-2017, 02:22 PMEllieShadeflareYou could have worded that a lot better without invalidating players' opinions on the matter. I mean... if you want change, you have to be persuasive, not combative.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan
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11-06-2017, 05:19 PMKahnomSay what you want but in the end you only have 2 options.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan
1) Standstill and keep "Hoping" that someday things will change.
OR
2) Move forward by Embraces everything the game throwing at you.
Adapt , Adjust and Evolve yourself along with the job you love.
Your call. -
11-07-2017, 08:33 AMSvabodnikIf bard's Wanderer's Minuet changes from 3.X to 4.X have anything to show, enough noise about class changes the players don't like may eventually change it, so 1) isn't as much of a dead end as you suggest it to be. Reason for that being is there actually is an option - 3) Play another game if this one stops being fun. Considering the players are paying customers, SE would prefer it if the players didn't take this option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahnom
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11-07-2017, 10:13 AMKahnomBrd's situation had changed its game play entirely but even became Bow-Mage,tons of main bards're still stuck with the job because they're still love being bard.They accept the change,not give in the limited of mobility and doing awesome dps.It is the prove that we can take on anything if we're willing to adapt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svabodnik
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11-07-2017, 12:38 PMTigerlilleyActually, majority of the lifetime bards I knew switched to MCH to raid, especially during Gordias and Midas. They hated WM. Everyone hated WM. There were threads about how much everyone hated it for the entirety of Heavensward. Unfortunately, there wasn't much choice for ranged physical dps because MCH had Gauss Barrel which gave them cast times as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahnom
I'm not sure if you were here for the start of Gordias but there was a MASS exodus of raiders from the game (for other reasons as well obviously). I knew bards who quit because of the changes and have only now come back for Stormblood. I don't think it's fair to say there is proof there that if we ignore and issue it'll get better any more than it is to say that all bards accepted the change. A lot of them certainly didn't.
Now they've got their class back everyone has been commenting on the lack of MCH. The change to Bard has been praised to high heaven and people are thankful the cast times are gone. Bards Stormblood changes have really made the class fun again.
The problem with Monk isn't that it's changed, it's that is hasn't. It hasn't for two expansions. Every other role in the game has grown in role / rotation / skills / gameplay and all Monk got was making an off gcd now an RNG off gcd, a slow debuff, and a weaksauce utility.
They took away blood for blood, fine, but then they gave us a slow debuff? Why do monks get slowed down as a buff when Greased Lightning, the absolute baseline of being a monk, is to speed it up? Why give bards cast times when their identity was mobility? It's the same thing and that's why people hate it. -
11-07-2017, 12:51 PMwereotterIt's not entirely relevant considering the point, but meditate isn't really an accurate comparison to the need to maintain greased lightning or huton. Samurai need to maintain both Shifu to gain their GCD haste, and Jinpu in order to maintain their damage up buff, both are the second moves in their three move combos that need to be completed in order to gain Sen in order to perform other attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by BucklesTrespen
A samurai can use Meikyo Shisui in order to get back all their buffs, but this is at a DPS loss if they do so. I will say, however, that considering that they only have to spend 5 global cool downs to get all their buffs back, they're already at an advantage over monks. Additionally, most samurai, that I'm currently aware of, will start off by gaining their skill speed first with a Kasha combo so that they can more quickly get back there damage up with a Gekko combo. Doing the same process for monks would require the use of 7 global cool downs, and that's assuming you form shift appropriately in order to gain a greased lightning stack with your first GCD. -
11-07-2017, 02:01 PMKahnomTrue about brd.its like slap in the player's face,I'm aware of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerlilley
But there's nothing we could do back there and of course it should ..no.. it must be fixed.
Now I'm glad that brd has got their signature's back and as we all see,Brd got fixed because it must be done.
Unlike like monk.Monk doesn't need any major fix right now. -
11-09-2017, 12:57 AMSpeckledBurdMonk absolutely does need major fixes because the devs should be ashamed that Stormblood Monk ever existed in its current form.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahnom
Monk continues to lack a huge amount of basic parts of its kit that most other jobs have. It doesn't get a ranged GCD at low levels for single mob pulls. Monk's mobility is terrible, easily the worst of the Melee. We only have one mobility cooldown and we have to use it on cooldown to deal our maximum damage. Ninja and Samurai never have to use their gap closers to achieve Max Damage. Dragoon, while it does need to use its jumps to achieve Max Damage and to build eyes for Life of the Dragon, also has Elusive Jump which allows a great amount of Free Movement at no cost. Monk doesn't have an AOE chakra dump, so we have to dump Forbidden Chakras on single targets in AOE situations. Monk didn't just get a new ability to maintain it's stacks where Black Mage and Dragoon got that utility added to old actions, it's new action is actually worse than the reworked old actions. Black Mage can maintain Enochian indefinitely with Transpose, Dragoon can literally just add 15 seconds to its much longer Blood of the Dragon timer when ever it wants. For Riddle of Earth to work Monk has to get hit, so we can't control our refresh time ourself. It's also on such a long cooldown that if two mechanics that require a GL3 refresh happen back to back Monk is just shit out of luck (Third boss of Rabanstre). Coupled with how GL3 is incredibly short means we can and often do end up losing our stacks before we actually take the hit outside of one fight where it's reliable. Perfect Balance's cooldown is stupid. There's no reason for it to be 3 minutes long when equivalent abilities are on 30 second cooldowns. Our Aggro generation is insane and while Diversion is useful in limiting it, it's cooldown is too long to be effective, we could very much use an aggro 1/2 Skill. And that doesn't even begin to get into changes that Monk has been waiting on for a long time that it should have gotten in Stormblood that it just didn't get with the action rework.