Idea: Add summmoner primals as skills

Instead of egi glamour add an egi skill that lets you summone very primal in the game that auto attacks and does a finisher/big attack just like bahamut.
You won't have to animate, you won't have to do anything besides just adding an ifrit, shiva, titan, levi, and ramuh button that we can drag to hotbar that acts exactly the same way as bahamut's with the same potency/auto attack and finisher.

No more ps3 limitations excuse...

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

Instead of egi glamour add an egi skill that lets you summone very primal in the game that auto attacks and does a finisher/big attack just like bahamut.
You won't have to animate, you won't have to do anything besides just adding an ifrit, shiva, titan, levi, and ramuh button that we can drag to hotbar that acts exactly the same way as bahamut's with the same potency/auto attack and finisher.

No more ps3 limitations excuse...

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I might be wrong, but it's something about lore I believe.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I might be wrong, but it's something about lore I believe.

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Then let's re-summon Bahamut and get him to burn the world again and re-write the lore! :P

Remember when we saw Egis' of Leviathan and Ramuh? Where are they? This was first shown when we were capped at level 50, we are now 70. It's clear to me that something has gotten scrapped or Summoner is getting a serious reworking. That's me being hopeful though.

Summoner has never been interesting to me because of those Egi's. To me, they don't feel like Summons just "pets" and sure Summoner is a pet job, but you know they just look pathetic. Exactly what Ghastly has said though, Summoner needs more "Summons" like Bahamut. I'm actually surprised they got Bahamut before any of the others though.

The problem with having larger summons like Bahamut would just be what many have already said, they have the potential to get in the way and actually block your vision. I'm not fully caught up with the changes to summoner, but I think you can now change the size of them or make them more transparent? These seems like "ok" solutions we'll see. I want this to work, Summoner is such an iconic Final Fantasy class/job it doesn't deserve to be the mess it's been made of in XIV.

Don't ruin Summoner. No pun intended. It's in a great spot right now and I have believe the devs know what they're doing.

The three same pets are not enough for me. I'd rather be trancing a variety of primals for a 10-15 secs than never bringing out my chicken mcnugget/scrawny harpy. We can still apply the DoT element to the gameplay by having the trance finisher leaving the target with a pseudo-elemental debuff and/or party buff (ifrit burns and weakens, shiva frostbites and slows, garuda poisons and casts hastega on party, etc)

Don't get me wrong. The smn job plays itself well enough to be named as another job (minus egi) like a chemist for example. Conceptually, it'll just never be "summoner" for me.

I suspect that they are currently planning to add the ability to "glamour" Demi-Bahamut when they actually start rolling out the Primal-Egi glamours. That and possibly a Demi-summon glamour roulette should give you what you want.

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

Remember when we saw Egis' of Leviathan and Ramuh? Where are they? This was first shown when we were capped at level 50, we are now 70. It's clear to me that something has gotten scrapped or Summoner is getting a serious reworking. That's me being hopeful though.

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The abilities Summon IV (Leviathan) and Summon V (Ramuh) were scrapped because they could not figure out a way to have 5 Egi's be each independently useful (they were having trouble making 3 independently useful) without turning Summoner into a master of all trades. They instead opted to create an Egi Glamour system (which they added in 3.X with the first wave being the Topaz, Emerald and Ruby Carbuncles).

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Summoner has never been interesting to me because of those Egi's. To me, they don't feel like Summons just "pets" and sure Summoner is a pet job, but you know they just look pathetic. Exactly what Ghastly has said though, Summoner needs more "Summons" like Bahamut. I'm actually surprised they got Bahamut before any of the others though.

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Bahamut was likely done first as it is the traditional "ultimate" summon.

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The problem with having larger summons like Bahamut would just be what many have already said, they have the potential to get in the way and actually block your vision. I'm not fully caught up with the changes to summoner, but I think you can now change the size of them or make them more transparent? These seems like "ok" solutions we'll see. I want this to work, Summoner is such an iconic Final Fantasy class/job it doesn't deserve to be the mess it's been made of in XIV.

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They added the ability to resize how big the Demi-bahamuts are rendered client side.

For me, when someone tells me about summoner in FF games I think something like that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU1xfaZ_fr8

That including the backjump.

Edit: But it appears to work more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0inHWlnYWe4

Id prefer them to work on the egi glamour system and make it actually egi glamour and not "make my egi look like an assortment of carbuncles", like make my caster egi look like Ramuh instead of Garuda.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

For me, when someone tells me about summoner in FF games I think something like that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU1xfaZ_fr8

That including the backjump.

Edit: But it appears to work more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0inHWlnYWe4

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Yep. Put that in FFXIV and watch how everyone stops playing them and letting them into groups.

I really don't want any more of these Egi glamours or them working on a Demi-Bahamut glamour. I find it to be the most boring way to improve on the summoning aspect of the job.

Egis should be reworked into Demi summons because currently pets are so clunky, unimpressive and they aren't very engaging in gameplay because you'd be forgetting they exist majority of the fight. Meanwhile Demi-Bahamut actually makes you pay attention and is a good addition, flaws aside. It's what summoning should've been from the start.

Also if "lore" is what's stopping SMN from getting more summons then I prefer they rewrite to make it possible. It's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Yep. Put that in FFXIV and watch how everyone stops playing them and letting them into groups.

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Don't know how community would react to something like that. But I think that it depends more on the balance than the job itself.

But I don't feel like summoner is like traditional FF summoner. It feels more like a beastmaster for me.

As a relatively new player, I too wish the summoner class was more summoner like. I assume it would take a lot to change the class to be like that at this point though so I don't see it happening.

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

Remember when we saw Egis' of Leviathan and Ramuh? Where are they?

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Well Ramuh's Egi is in The Striking Tree. I have no idea where you saw Leviathan's Egi, though.

It is not as simple as that. There are balance, test issues, problems with the scenario (it is not the same summon Ifrit who is relatively small, than Alexander or Leviathan, which are massive for a tiny scenario),coding each one. A lot of work. You must look also to the problem that consist on have a lot of summoner in a party or out-world. Imagine 40 summoners which their respective primal at the same time. Demi Bahamut is a low-detailed model of original Bahamut, it is not even the same model. It is not only about the models only, the work is massive for that feature and can cause more problems than benefic.

Please, stop talk as if everything is easy to do. This is not "copy-paste primal and everything is done". What you ask is a massive work, for a very little thing. In the future probably will have more Demi-Primals, and that the way they should take.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Don't know how community would react to something like that. But I think that it depends more on the balance than the job itself.

But I don't feel like summoner is like traditional FF summoner. It feels more like a beastmaster for me.

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Because it's not the traditional Summoner. The devs already went through this. This SMN thing won't ever go away lol..

Two clarifications...

1. Adding a button for 5 new primals can be done in 1 week. This doesn't require any work besides turning regular ifrit (not the egi) red like demi-bahamut, for example. This is not egi glamour so the concerns about blocking view in towns shouldn't be a cocern.

2. Adding more demi primals requires 0 skills changes. They will auto attack and do a big attack at the end like demi-bahamut

I do still like the idea of adding egi glamours to the regular egi but the main idea here is about adding more demis. Thank you to those who read/understood.

Summoner is in a great place right now. As I suggested before is to get rid off Egis and make them all like bahamut. Pop for 15 seconds attacking and all sorts.

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Originally Posted by Mature

Summoner is in a great place right now. As I suggested before is to get rid off Egis and make them all like bahamut. Pop for 15 seconds attacking and all sorts.

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If it ends up being that, I would love to play Summoner. Like I said before, those Egis' are a turn off for me.

Also, while it's nice for now this summoner "glam", I do find it rather sad they had to resort to doing such things. Being able to customize the look back to Carbuncle doesn't make me interested in playing the class at all. I have no problems with Carbuncles either, they should definitely be the Summoners default/main pet until you can summon something more "Primal" for a time.

Summoner is fantasic the way it is, FINALLY. Stop trying to ruin it.

From all your posts i've read OP you don't even play summoner. Why muck it up for the hoards of people that actually do, and happily, play the job right now?

Maybe pet classes aren't for you OP. Or maybe this pet class isn't for you. Every summoner I know in game is incredibly happy with how Summoner works right now.

Dunno, I feel xi did summoner well, each primal is summoned for a special attack and that's it. There is no need to balance the 3 pet roles because there are none.

I just try not to think of it as a Summoner. Makes it easier for me. Basically I just consider myself to be a Ruin Mage when I play SMN. A Ruin Mage who just so happens to have a carbuncle friend.

The work or complication from adding actual summons isn't as easy or difficult as people assume and server stress is a load of bull. 40+ people with summons out? People have been doing that with chocobo's since 1.x - when they had Choco Meteor as an attack. Or how about that ffxi can handle it despite being released during the PS2 era and being limited by PlayOnline. The real reason is because someone in leadership wants the egi system they have and it's insulting.

I wouldn't mind seeing a customisable Enkindle action that would unleash an elemental attack regardless of the egi that is summoned. Maybe it can be affected by the Aetherflow stacks at the time of using Enkindle. So no stacks would be the egi's trademark special, 1 stack Diamond Dust, 2 Judgement Bolt, 3 Tsunami etc.

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Originally Posted by Marcellus_Cassius

Dunno, I feel xi did summoner well, each primal is summoned for a special attack and that's it. There is no need to balance the 3 pet roles because there are none.

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That's not remotely true. When XI initially launched, that was the intent behind the class, that a player would summon an avatar, use a Blood Pact, and then release it. That was a problem because all Blood Pacts shared a minute timer, weren't more powerful than other job's skills, and while waiting for the cool down to finish, there was nothing useful the job could really do, except heal.

Over time, the job has morphed into one in which you leave the avatar out all the time, so it can build up TP and then execute a Blood Pact.

Many people on this forum expressed the sentiment they thought the job in XI was perfect, but while it is good, it's not as great as people think. Avatars have a long cast time, and you can't heal them, and once the pet is dead, the summoner is a sitting duck. The job also takes a significant amount of gear, and Nirvana makes a difference of night and day.

The other thing is that XI summoner goes against the idea of having the player being directly responsible for events and actions, as the player just controls the avatar.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

Instead of egi glamour add an egi skill that lets you summone very primal in the game that auto attacks and does a finisher/big attack just like bahamut.
You won't have to animate, you won't have to do anything besides just adding an ifrit, shiva, titan, levi, and ramuh button that we can drag to hotbar that acts exactly the same way as bahamut's with the same potency/auto attack and finisher.

No more ps3 limitations excuse...

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An alternative to this if SE keeps up with the Egi-Glamour shtick, is they could allow us to glamour Demi-Bahamut into Demi-versions of the other primals to do their own version of wyrm weave + their special attack.

That would be an amazing option to have.

Lorewise, I'm sure we could figure out a way for Summoners to control weaker Primals for one special attack that uses all their aether, then they dissipate. I don't think summons should be permanent pets at all. They've always been one-shot spells until FFX/XIII had them out for a limited amount of time, then FFXI had them persistent but at least they were true summons and not egis.

SMN should be the only job that can make bigger explosions than BLM, but right now it kind of falls short. It's an awkward DoT class. Very questionable choice by SE.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Yep. Put that in FFXIV and watch how everyone stops playing them and letting them into groups.

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If you mean the long elaborate intros, yeah no one would play them because that intro is about 1 minute long.

If you mean because they would be too big and cover picture space for party, just have it by default that no one else can see the summon in battle unless they toggle it on.

If you asked anyone who knows what previous summons are and are not in love with the current summoner implementation which is 3 avatars, glamours, and dot oriented vs big can of whoop ash like in most FF games. I doubt there would be many who wouldn't want to have an army of different avatars with different skills to cycle through and play with.

https://i.imgur.com/XCq9i0N.jpg?2

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

If you asked anyone who knows what previous summons are and are not in love with the current summoner implementation which is 3 avatars, glamours, and dot oriented vs big can of whoop ash like in most FF games. I doubt there would be many who wouldn't want to have an army of different avatars with different skills to cycle through and play with.

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And if you ask the thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of SMN players how they feel about SMN I'm sure they'll say it's awesome.

You "make SMN an actual SMN" people never stop. Are never pleased. SMN is GREAT right now and if you don't like it don't play it.

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Originally Posted by Marcellus_Cassius

Dunno, I feel xi did summoner well, each primal is summoned for a special attack and that's it. There is no need to balance the 3 pet roles because there are none.

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This is how SMN should have always worked in FF14 as well. Unfortunately our devs are horrible at recognizing their design mistakes and correcting them.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

And if you ask the thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of SMN players how they feel about SMN I'm sure they'll say it's awesome.

You "make SMN an actual SMN" people never stop. Are never pleased. SMN is GREAT right now and if you don't like it don't play it.

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You are right about people enjoying the gameplay aspect of the SMN overall. But if you ask them about the aesthetics and/concept of the SMN, you'll get mixed results, mostly leaning into dislike. Its a sentiment I find people express a lot whenever the SMN discussion pops up. I've seen a lot of responses that pretty much share this vein "its a great job but it feels like it plays like X class. Look at our egis. Ifrit became the new Garuda. Titan still does not see light of day unless your leveling it and/or a situation arises that bringing it out is better than nothing. Eikons keep coming out in future patches but we still are stuck with our basic three. Our egi glamour consists of differently colored carbuncles. Very cute but not diverse.

The core components of the job are enjoyable, even moreso now in SB and a lot of people enjoy it. If it was labeled a different job, people would still enjoy it. However the same people who enjoy it also wish that the SMN job had more recognizable identity in its gameplay and thus why every now and then, you see a thread about "I wish SMN was more...SMN".

Again, I can't help but stress this: We don't hate how it plays. We just wish it had more SMN...factors. Maybe sometimes we go the wrong way about expressing how we want it but we don't actually hate the current job.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

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SMN is SMN. It doesn't need a new name. Changing SMN to fit your memories of SMN from totally different games will make the wonderful job we have no into something completely different. You have to understand the difference between. "Making SMN more SMN" and "Making SMN more SMN that I remember" FFXIV isnt FFXI, FFX, or FFIX, it's FFXIV.

FFXIV has it's own SMN and people just won't accept it. How can you not hate how it plays but want to completely change how it plays to make it "better", at the same time?

SMN's direction is fine. We have Bahamut. He pew pews and bang bangs maybe later we'll get more like him. Maybe not. But that's the direction SE wants to go and people love it. Or else SMN would've got flipped like 4.0 BRD. Now after 4.1, SMN is even BETTER.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

SMN is SMN.

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From what I gather here, you're fine with its gameplay but its also clear you don't care about its identity. We do. If we didn't, we wouldn't be complaining as much as we are now.

I find it ironic that you find that its great just the way it is, despite still glossing over what I mentioned before about egis: Titan is still not seeing light of day and Ifrit is now the one with more gametime. This just reinforces my belief of what I stated in the first paragraph.

I don't share the opinion that FF14's SMN should play out like a carbon copy of some past game. I do share the opinion that it should expand on its current gameplay. Trancing Baha and now summoning him is great. But it could go further. It could have trancing Ramuh, Shiva, Levia. It could get our first egi trio share more or less equal game time at capped lvls.

Overall from what Ive seen from fellow SMNs, we want the SMN aesthetics to be very present in our gameplay. That's the main core of our argument.

I don't play SMN because the egi's are ugly and people were pissed I i used Ifrit in 2.0 and pissex if I use Garuda in 4.0. I'd like it more if the Egi's were actual summons and you had more aesthetic variation. Aesthetic is all I want. I'm not hoping for more summon stuff like more summon skills. I know we won't get it and talk about elemental damage is sad. They made sure it was pointless with 2.0 so things like CNJ and THM wouldn't be decimated against certain primals or over world areas.

As far as identity... I played ffxiv 1.0. SMN is the 1.0 THM with a laughable pet. I'll never see it as SMN as long as it's a poison mage with insulting things they try to call summons.

Why not just have a single 'summon' ability where a random Primal appears (you have no control over who) that does auto-attacks & with the ability for a signature attack, like Enkindle? They would last for a set length of time before vanishing & being ready to be resummoned, a bit like how AST cards work. Additional features could be added that allow the player to 'influence' who is likely to be summoned but it would still be random. Most importantly, the stats of the Primal & their attacks would be identical across all summons so there'd be no "better" Primal.