Cleric Stance, Chain Strat and Rouse question.

Hello everyone.
Should i cast Cleric Stance and Chain Strat before or after I apply miasma/bio shadowflare on target? In other words, does cleric stance and Chain strat works on spells I already casted beforehand? Or should I always aim to cast Cleric Stance + Chain Strat before my other spells?

What about rouse?
If EOS has already casted Whispering Dawn, and I cast Rouse after it, will the benefit of Rouse work on the remaining healing ticks? Or should i Always cast rouse before WD?

Thanks in adv.

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Originally Posted by Ftienbr

Hello everyone.
Should i cast Cleric Stance and Chain Strat before or after I apply miasma/bio shadowflare on target? In other words, does cleric stance and Chain strat works on spells I already casted beforehand? Or should I always aim to cast Cleric Stance + Chain Strat before my other spells?

What about rouse?
If EOS has already casted Whispering Dawn, and I cast Rouse after it, will the benefit of Rouse work on the remaining healing ticks? Or should i Always cast rouse before WD?

Thanks in adv.

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Cast them before.
Rouse -> Whispering Wind
Cleric Stance, Chain -> Dots. A good way so you dont lose GCD is, start with a pre cast broil, cleric, ruin2, shadow flare, chain, dots.

:)

For Cleric Stance, you need to use it before you apply your dots. Rouse and WD are the same and this is pretty easy to test out yourself by watching your scrolling text.

I would assume Chain is the same but I could well be wrong there.

Cleric/Rouse/Whispering Dawn have to be casted beforehand, they affect the spell at the moment you cast them not afterwards.

As for Chain i haven't tested it thoroughly but it technically is a debuff on the boss so even if it is applied afterwards it should work. I have seen a couple of HC speedrunners casting chain after applying DoTs, so it must work like this or they are not as HC as i thought.

Thank you all so much for the replies.

To add a bit more technical mumbo jumbo, all your DoTs and HoTs take a snapshot of all buffs and debuffs that affect the potency of the DoT / HoT and apply that same potency value across every single tick of the spell. This also means that if you reapply DoTs / HoTs as buffs / debuffs are about to expire, the HoT/DoTs full duration will get these boosted effects. It also means you may lose some potency by clipping DoTs / HoTs to early with reapplication.

At the topic of Chain Stratagem, my testing with Spear indicates that DoTs maintain their critical hit rate even after the buff wears out so I imagine Chain Stratagem follows the same trend even though it's a debuff on the target. I have no evidence to substantiate my claim with Chain Stratagem though, so take it with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by NoahG

Cleric/Rouse/Whispering Dawn have to be casted beforehand, they affect the spell at the moment you cast them not afterwards.

As for Chain i haven't tested it thoroughly but it technically is a debuff on the boss so even if it is applied afterwards it should work. I have seen a couple of HC speedrunners casting chain after applying DoTs, so it must work like this or they are not as HC as i thought.

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Probably more to do with not clipping the schs GCD. Chain strat gave SCH a new shining element to its role, but it's tacked on and clunky. At least you can cast cleric stance prepull, unlike chain strat.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

At the topic of Chain Stratagem, my testing with Spear indicates that DoTs maintain their critical hit rate even after the buff wears out so I imagine Chain Stratagem follows the same trend even though it's a debuff on the target.

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Yes but Spear is a buff on your character so it makes sense that it works the same as Cleric. The thing with Stratagem is that it's a debuff on the boss which makes me believe that during those 15 seconds any damage on the enemy be it a DoT tick or a Skill/Spell will be affected by it.

This is just theory though as I haven't tested it but i do believe it works this way

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Probably more to do with not clipping the schs GCD.

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If that's the case then the opener should be Cleric -> Ruin II -> Stratagem -> DoTs yet I haven't seen ppl doing that in speedrun videos.

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Originally Posted by NoahG

Yes but Spear is a buff on your character so it makes sense that it works the same as Cleric. The thing with Stratagem is that it's a debuff on the boss which makes me believe that during those 15 seconds any damage on the enemy be it a DoT tick or a Skill/Spell will be affected by it.

This is just theory though as I haven't tested it but i do believe it works this way

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Well, we know that Vuln Up/Down will snapshot to DoTs. Chain is just hard to test because of the random nature of crits.

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If that's the case then the opener should be Cleric -> Ruin II -> Stratagem -> DoTs yet I haven't seen ppl doing that in speedrun videos.

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Not really. The DPS increase from Chain isn't worth delaying the DoTs that much. It also misaligns Chain from the raid buffs, as well as making it so neither your first or second Miasma/Bio2s actually land inside most of the buffs. Doing it that way also means that you've given up the opportunity to precast your Miasma (300p) to have that land right as the fight begins in favor of merely Ruin II (100p).

Generally the only times you should ever be using Ruin II are when you need to move for more than half a global, or you need to double weave and are out of range of Miasma II.

Depends on the party i w8 2 gcd on chain to meld it on mi nin trick attack

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Originally Posted by NoahG

Cleric/Rouse/Whispering Dawn have to be casted beforehand, they affect the spell at the moment you cast them not afterwards.

As for Chain i haven't tested it thoroughly but it technically is a debuff on the boss so even if it is applied afterwards it should work. I have seen a couple of HC speedrunners casting chain after applying DoTs, so it must work like this or they are not as HC as i thought.

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Chain is applied after the DoTs to make it align with the rest of the raid buffs, like Trick Attack, Embolden, etc. Same reason why most raiding RDMs will use Embolden way before they get enough Manas to do their combo burst.

That said, if you're going purely for personal gain, use Chain before your DoTs, particularly before you Bane. I'm not 100% sure, but my assumption is that DoTs will snapshot not having Chain on the target if you use them before.

You'll cast Cleric before your DoTs
As for Chain Strat you will want to delay it since sure it may buff your initial DoTs but its a party wide tool that will hold more benefit when it falls in line with Trick, Embolden, etc etc and lines up when people reach their ramp up time.

Rouse you will want to use before you Whispering Dawn or else the Rouse will only effect her Embrace.