Ivalice and Hydaelyn revisited (Patch 4.1 spoilers)

I previously made mention to this theory and you can find my posts and the deliberation here:

Is Hydaelyn an alternate Universe of Ivalice?

So essentially with the release of this new patch we not only confirmed the location and existence of Dalmasca & Lesalia, but we've confirmed that Bangaa and Seeq exist in Hydaelyn with their FFXII art style. Even more implicating for Ivalice and Hydaelyn being reflections of each other is the existence of Ba'gamnan and his siblings. Granted, the sorry state of Dalmasca and the fact that the Garlean invasion succeeded in destroying Rabanastre means that the events of FFXII did not come to pass in this reflection, but that doesn't mean that characters unrelated to that campaign couldn't have survived.

It makes me super ready for the upcoming patches since we should be able to ascertain more about the state of Hydaelyn and it's uncanny association with Ivalice.

Hate to be a mood killer, but I personally don't think that we should really read too much into it. FFXIV is a game that takes inspiration from many different Final Fantasy games, and pulls in ideas, concepts, and even races and locations from many of them. We have a game where Krile can meet Matoya, and where even something as specific as the Crystal Tower storyline can exist alongside the Prima Vista. Races and primals from other games can definitely exist alongside the Seeq and Bangaa without necessarily meaning that Eorzea is some sort of reflection of Ivalice. After all, while Rabanastre exists in this game, it's not necessarily the same one as its FFXII counterpart. Just because Doma exists in FFXIV and in FFVI (in Japan Hien's childhood name was even the Japanese equivalent for Cyan) that doesn't mean that this world is some alternate reflection of FFVI's. That being said, I am very much looking forward to comparing and contrasting the different versions of these characters, concepts, and ideas between FFXIV and their original incarnations. It's part of the fun!

we are dealing with a multiverse when talking about FF... if we compare our own real world and the multiverse there is 100% chance there is a universe where Mongolia is the "greatest nation on earth" in 2017... or where Paganism and witchcraft are the main religions... just because things may be the same in some aspects or be named the same and have a great number of similarities doesnt mean they are actually the same... just as a FF18 could be another online game with references to 14 but not the same world at all...

So here is my question. Why would the ruins of lesalia be underneath rabanastre when the state of Dalmasca (and the rest of FF12) occured many millienia before lesalia was in existance? See the general Ivalice timeline here: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ivalice

This to me (if this isn't just another messed up dimension or reflection but actually us traveling to ivalice) is a pretty big lore flaw.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

that doesn't mean that this world is some alternate reflection of FFVI's

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It kinda is though, have you seen the garlean empire? A better example would be the gold saucer or Costa del sol

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

It kinda is though, have you seen the garlean empire? A better example would be the gold saucer or Costa del sol

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Well costa del sol and gold saucer are from ff7 not 6... the gold saucer we have was created by godbert Mandeville vs the gold saucer from 7 created by dio... it's equally if not more probable that the entire world of hydalyn is contained within the dream of a final fantasy super fan who's asleep in front of their game system than it is a reflection ...

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Originally Posted by Xenohart

So here is my question. Why would the ruins of lesalia be underneath rabanastre when the state of Dalmasca (and the rest of FF12) occured many millienia before lesalia was in existance? See the general Ivalice timeline here: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ivalice

This to me (if this isn't just another messed up dimension or reflection but actually us traveling to ivalice) is a pretty big lore flaw.

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The second Calamity forced everyone underground due to extended volcanic activity. It's possible that Rabanastre was founded and the events of XII took place, then the second Calamity came, forcing Lesalia to be founded, then Rabanastre was taken back some time in the eras since, causing Lesalia to be forgotten again.

I hope it's more than a simple and shorter retelling of FFT and cie.

It's all a play. A big play indeed. The Seeq and Bangaas are just costumes. Ramza, Alma, etc. are all actors.
and the gun at the end, a blank, obviously.

The Prima Vista gave me a slight "Stanley Parable" feel, with the theater(game) props being created (like the Bahamut head)
Next or last raid, maybe there will be some problems with the play : wrong decor, wrong prop, we start wandering behind the scene, etc.

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Originally Posted by Xenohart

So here is my question. Why would the ruins of lesalia be underneath rabanastre when the state of Dalmasca (and the rest of FF12) occured many millienia before lesalia was in existance? See the general Ivalice timeline here: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ivalice

This to me (if this isn't just another messed up dimension or reflection but actually us traveling to ivalice) is a pretty big lore flaw.

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I was trying to figure that out myself. I think it all comes down to the authorship question - what's the true Ivalice, basically - is Ivalice everything that SE has designated an Ivalice Alliance game or only the works set in Ivalice that Yasumi Matsuno personally created?

If it's the former this is a complete mess. If it's the latter then most of the time-line discrepancies can be hand-waved by blaming the local extinctions and ping-ponging technology levels on Hydaelyn's tendency to have devestating, civilisation-crumbling cataclysms every couple of thousand years or so.

It doesn't feel like Ivalice as a whole was used as canon for the story. Ba'Gamnan can't exist in Ivalice chronologically after Ramza Beoulve. Ba'Gamnan was a bangaa from the Golden Age of Ivalice, and Ramza Beoulve exists in the Ivalice that takes place 1,200 years after the Golden Age represented in XII. Lesalia was never depicted in FFT as being an underground citadel either, and its construction would have been after Rabanastre's founding or in a different place entirely. I can get behind the idea of it being in the same area even if the maps look different, since Ivalice is said to have had its own calamity or catastrophe that highly changed the land and the races that live there. Still, it doesn't add up from the Ivalice perspective.

I'm hoping for the best from this as I'm a big fan of both Ivalice and Hydaelyn and their respective stories, but simply marrying them in a way and handwaving away the details won't fit right with me. But then we get to Argath Thadalfus and he directly namedrops the Beoulve line, once more showing his resentment to Ramza and Delita after his death and eventual awakening as a Lucavi thrall (as seen in WotL). This is great stuff, but when I think about how they could represent Ivalice as a whole in Hydaelyn, I am left feeling uneasy. Ivalice is far more than just FFT- there's Rabanastre of course, but the races that live in Rabanastre are far more plentiful than Seeqs and Bangaa. There are "high" moogles, viera, and nu'mou of course, but further than that there are also plenty of other races in the Ivalice lore like the Gria, Baknamy/Goblins, Garif, Aegyl... The development team couldn't hope to possibly represent all of these races on Hydaelyn as well from a cost standpoint. Hell, that would also detract from Hydaelyn as a whole because it would essentially be Ivalice taking over an already established world that has become much its own despite taking influence from other FFs.

I could understand it being represented as a small window into Ivalice, something like Dalmasca existing through timetravel shenanigans or shards of Hydaelyn or something, I don't know... but there's no way that the original Ivalice, as a whole, could possibly be situated all on Othard. It wouldn't make a lick of sense. I hate that I have to wait six months now to see the next chapter so I can try to make anymore sense of this.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._on_return_to/

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Looks like there are some misinformations here so I'm going to clear this up

"Return to Ivalice is NOT a post FFT story!"

Like what was said in the previous 14 hour broadcast, it's a concept of what if we are to bring Ivalice into a theme park games like FF14. It's not a Tactics sequel or whatsoever!

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this Ivalice and all its characters and locations are NOT the same ones from FFT or FF12... just as every town called springfield with families called smiths and jones are not all the same... this is the FF14 ivalice and rabanastre and this is the Ramza and Delita and Alma of FF14... stop trying to force things to fit just because of how they were in other games... like the gold saucer and and costa del sol are not the same as the ones from 7, doma isnt the same as that of 6 ect...

Yeah that was said to be the case on the 14 hours broadcast. Still, this been the most close to the original XIV content ever been and it feels great for those who are FFT fans. The idea is to make an almost copy of War of the Lions as canon to Hydaelyn while adding XII elements to it. And they did a pretty good job with this first couple of quests.

This further reinforces my theory that Hydaelyn doesn't exist. Aether is the manifestation of all life, but this world is a reflection of everything that has been experienced by players in other games. These stories come from us, not from them.

We're looking at the stories of two completely different lore as if they were Final Fantasy games, not as historical lore.

Now from a developer standpoint, I think it was just lazy. You have the CREATOR of these games involved with this project who isn't even bothering to attempt a coherent story. Even these characters Ramza and Alma are so ridiculously similar to the originals that it's almost a joke. If you were to have conjured the memories of Ramza and Alma themselves, that would make sense. But the person conjuring these ideas isn't them, it's Durai. And he, of all people, should know the damn story.

Again, I don't understand why people seem to buy so much into the idea that Hydaelyn is some sort of true reflection of other Final Fantasy games. It's always been its own setting with its own history, characters, ideas, and lore. They do take aspects, characters, and the like from other games and put them in though. When they do this, however, they like to put a twist on the characters and concepts. The Crystal Tower was worked to align with the stories of the Allagans and the third astral era. Bahamut was given a whole continent full of dragons and creatures. Omega has different motivations and appearance than usual. Shinryu has no real connection to the dimensional rift, and exists as a primal created by Ilberd instead. Krile exists as an adult and a teacher. It's not a 'reflection of other stories', it is its own setting, and has always been.

People are reading too hard on those references.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

we are dealing with a multiverse when talking about FF...

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I agree with Okamimaru here. I see it as two different sets of canon that operate by their own rules and history. There is some overlap, but there is no genetic connection.

Pretty much what others said. I'm not gonna question why Ba'Gamnon is here when we're dealing with events after his time because this isn't the same Ba'Gamnon as the one in Xii and this isn't the same Ivalice. It's an Ivalice that may have had extremely similar events to Tactics but it is its own piece of history established in the world of FFXIV. The Return to Ivalice idea as mentioned is that the makers wanted to bring back this iconic world for a nostalgia trip whilst also making it work as part of Hydaelyn lore. Its fanservice, pure and simple. And whilst it might not be THE ivalice the idea that we are seemingly going to be helping [Spoiler]a version of Arzalam Durai disclose the truth about his world's version of Ramza, as a form of bringing closure to the downer ending we saw in Tactics is something I'm definitely down with. At least in the knowledge that there is at least one version of Ramza successfully vindicated.[/spoiler]

But Algus was the final boss and he kept his same last name...which to me means it's the real deal. Plus wasn't Ramza and Alma (XIV's) father shown to be Alazam Durai?

I would be upset if FFT/FFXII took place on Hydalyn because in FFT, Summoners could summon Bahamut, Zodiark etc, which are powerful primals, some of which didn't exist millenia ago in Hydralyn but arose with modern beastmen tribes.

The exact same events happened a long time ago on Hydaelyn but the FFT game doesn't take place on Hydaelyn and the events of this particular raid-quest will never happen in the main FFT world. This seems pretty simple to me.

It's not, as we;ve been saying repeatedly - the 'Ivalice' in Hydaelyn is simply a name reference used for a long dead nation that has zero connection to the FFT/FFXII version. It and other FFT/XII names and references are just that, names and references that have been reused with actual connection to the original. Just like Crystal Tower not being FFIII's final dungeon or Costa del Sol and Gold Saucer are not the FFVII places somehow transplanted into Eorzea. This is in keeping with comments SE made ages ago on the subject which well and truly puts the final nail in that coffin:

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Originally Posted by Gildrien

1:57:29
Q: A lot of names from Ivalice have been mentioned such as Dalmasca, Belias, and Zodiak. Is there some kind of connection between Hydaelyn and Ivalice?
A: Maehiro: To be absolutely clear, there is no direct connection between FFXIV’s Hydaelyn and FFXII’s Ivalice or even FFXI’s Vana’diel. They are not the same world in different dimensions or time—they are their own separate worlds. However, there are certain connections to people or objects that appear in these other worlds that figure into the story of FFXIV as it has been conceived and is being told.

Yoshida: We’ll be revealing more as we move forward.

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Nothing that I've seen with the new raid contradicts this - they're just name and concepts that are fanservice references to FFT and XII but are fully within FFXIV's lore and thus have no actual connection to FFT and XII at all.

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

Now from a developer standpoint, I think it was just lazy. You have the CREATOR of these games involved with this project who isn't even bothering to attempt a coherent story. Even these characters Ramza and Alma are so ridiculously similar to the originals that it's almost a joke. If you were to have conjured the memories of Ramza and Alma themselves, that would make sense. But the person conjuring these ideas isn't them, it's Durai. And he, of all people, should know the damn story.

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What exactly did you find incoherent about the story? Seemed plenty coherent to me.

Even when multiple developers and writers, including Matsuno himself, have gone on record stating that Hydaelyn and Ivalice do not share a direct connection, some people are just too obsessed to believe one doesn't exist. I don't get it, and have given up trying to convince them otherwise.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

FFT and FFXII did not take place on Hydaelyn.

Events SIMILAR to those of FFT and FFXII did take place on Hydaelyn. Similar, but not exact.

Do not expect exact matchups between things that happened in FFT and FFXII, and things that are revealed in these raids. The raids are inspired by those games, but the authors are not bound to any of the canon events set by those games.