Zenos redemption arc will make Stormblood great again.

This expansion fell flat on its face in a few parts, and even though I know it's overall more polished than HW, is larger than HW, and is yet unfinished, it has yet to win me over from HW.

But a singular point which would win me over, instantly, is if they somehow manage to redeem not only Fordola and Yotsuyu, but even Zenos himself. And if the developers are truly as great as they are they'd realize the potential in pulling off something like that as well.

I didn't really trust Yoshi-P when he said they purposefully made an absolutely evil character that no one could ever empathize with, for one it's quite impossible to do so if you are a human yourself, and two they gave us the option themselves to "acknowledge" Zenos in the final confrontation. The simple fact that the Garlean emperor, a cold man, has no pity and empathy for his own son perhaps shows us that it's not right to write off people like that, and can even argue that writing them off can be part of the reason they turn into monsters.

So, ahem, Zenos redemption arc incoming?

The emperor lacked empathy for his son specifically because of what he had become, referring to him as a monster.

If anything, we'll probably get a little more insight into why Zenos ended up the way he did, as some of the blame almost certainly lies with his father.

I'm honestly not expecting much in that regard until we go to Ilsabard and Garlemald, though.

I wonder if redemption for Zenos is the right word.

Analysis, explanation, perhaps? Did the emperor always see him like this? Was it a mental condition he was born with, or the product of experimentation? We heard through Aulus that it was Zenos that allowed the resonance research to continue even after it was canned, was it a side effect of going too far with the echo?

It is clear that the last days of Zenos' life was a trend of self destruction,and to see if there was any man before, for both father and son, might defang the terror that is the legatus of the 6th, but the story's actions threw that out already. After Zenos' there seems to be little the story can do to bring the magic back to them as antagonists. Varis could stick Magitek Metal Gear REX in the middle of a fortified city, and I'd just roll my eyes and count the beats "scion looking from a corner, fetch quest, flawless plan from the twins, ask around quest, and I make things go boom with my tiny sword, while everyone looks on, amazed." Behind the magitek and propensity to be the plot's punching bag,just 'what people are behind the iron curtain' seems to be a question a lot of people want to explore, sometimes by even roleplaying characters from the empire.

The Emperor disapproved of Aulus and sent him away. It was Zenos who approached Aulus and willingly allowed himself to be experimented upon.

Furthermore, Varis himself is confirmed as having forged a strong friendship with Regula during their time as children. A friendship which lasted for decades. So the idea that Garlean high society prevents friendship isn't at all applicable.

Then, of course, there's Yoshi-P's own words. That he wanted Zenos to be a character that nobody would sympathise with. The guy was a monster, he was clearly deranged and much of it was his own doing. He willingly tortured and killed not only the opposition but his own allies as well. He also did not care for Garlemald. Everything was a game for him and regardless of seeing the Warrior of Light as his 'first friend' it's pretty obvious that nobody wanted to get close to him as he was obviously messed up.

I believe it will be Varis who will receive a redemption arc. Perhaps a change of heart in regards to his approach to leadership and goals. Garleans are, after all, described as pragmatic and efficient - and whilst reform is needed to some extent they do have good reason to be wary of the 'savages' given their own suffering in the past.

Let's not forget Regula's final words, either. He pretty much outright states that he wants the Warrior of Light - and Scions - to live on and help put an end to the Eikon threat once and for all alongside the Emperor. We can assume he knows Varis well enough for this to be a possibility. Zenos being branded a monster by his own father is another potential step towards redeeming Varis. As is the lack of reinforcements - either before the liberation of Gyr Abania and Yanxia or afterwards. It's possible that there won't be a counter attack and that Elidibus' scheming will result in the Emperor making a tactical move to request the aid of the Warrior of Light. He is, after all, described as very skilled in regards to tactical decisions - and we've only seen a few brief glimpses of him despite it being clear that he has a major role to play in the story.

I don't want a redemption arc for Zenos. (It's quite impossible for him to redeem himself, given he's dead.)

What I would like is a more explicit confirmation that, like Fordola and Yotsuyu, he was a product of his environment. That seems to be a theme with all three antagonists of Stormblood. Fordola is the way she is because of her Imperial upbringing; Yotsuyu is the way she is because of how horribly her family treated her and Doman culture did not favor dealing with the issues. To simply write Zenos off as a monster "cuz that's the way he was" is, I feel, not looking at him or the recurring theme of 4.0's antagonists in order to have somebody to hate.

If Yotsuyu could be said to be the sum total of Doma's sins... why does the same concept not apply to Zenos and Garlemald? I think it does. That's all.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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This. I've even noticed there are some recurring themes in the Garleans we meet who were born and raised there. What's most interesting to me (other than dying to learn about the sociocultural contexts they were raised in) is how they each responded. Writing off the background of Zenos' monstrosity in Just-So fashion is a disservice to some really interesting narrative in the game.

Perhaps zenos was that kid who was torturing and killing small animals because he liked the sounds they made when he hurt them. Sometimes people are just born bad... it's not common but it does happen... lack of empathy, joy in cruelty... maybe the reason he was out in the territories was because the garlean people simply couldn't stomach such a monster in their "civilized" society... he was simply too sick and dangerous to want to deal with... better to send him out with the rest of the "savages"... perhaps it was varis' intent to let zenos self destruct hoping that he and the resistance would ultimately wipe each other out rather than deal with him directly...

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I didn't really trust Yoshi-P when he said they purposefully made an absolutely evil character that no one could ever empathize with, for one it's quite impossible to do so if you are a human yourself, and two they gave us the option themselves to "acknowledge" Zenos in the final confrontation.

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It's more than likely Zenos was a legitimate sociopath with an utter lack of empathy and the viewpoint that other people aren't real. We are given the chance to acknowledge him because as hinted at through the dialog of SB, the WoL is suffering from a life of constant battle and watching his friends die. The DRK quests go deep into this.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Perhaps zenos was that kid who was torturing and killing small animals because he liked the sounds they made when he hurt them. Sometimes people are just born bad... it's not common but it does happen... lack of empathy, joy in cruelty...

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This cannot be verified, but let's assume it to be true for the sake of argument. Zenos was just a psychopath by nature.

Why the hell was he made commander of a military unit? That's one of the last positions you want a psychopath to be in.

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Originally Posted by Delily

It's more than likely Zenos was a legitimate sociopath with an utter lack of empathy and the viewpoint that other people aren't real.

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It's more along the lines of Zenos believing that anyone who doesn't enjoy violence like he does is less than human. This is why the Warrior of Light, and them alone, is the only person he shows real emotion toward - friendliness, in his own twisted idiom. He believes you share his love of violence and thus are on the same level as him (re: human).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

This cannot be verified, but let's assume it to be true for the sake of argument. Zenos was just a psychopath by nature.

Why the hell was he made commander of a military unit? That's one of the last positions you want a psychopath to be in.

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He was a member of the Royal family and his father was head of the military. Take it from someone who comes from a country that has had... Tumultuous times with the aristocracy. Being a psychopath doesn't discount you from high ranking positions if your families status is high enough.

Just be glad we got to him before he ascended to the throne.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's more along the lines of Zenos believing that anyone who doesn't enjoy violence like he does is less than human. This is why the Warrior of Light, and them alone, is the only person he shows real emotion toward - friendliness, in his own twisted idiom. He believes you share his love of violence and thus are on the same level as him (re: human).

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I don't know if violence is how I would phrase it. Zenos was definitely a violent man, but his ennui had more to do with the lack of a worthy opponent than people not agreeing with him. I don't think it even crossed his mind what those around him were thinking, and why would it? He was the strongest person in his circle, and he was surrounded by people who curried his favor. Combine that with his violent nature means he's going to do what he wants without caring at all about anyone around him. Then we come along, the first person to stand against him multiple times, each time become stronger and stronger. His acknowledgement of us is because we're very much like him.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

We heard through Aulus that it was Zenos that allowed the resonance research to continue even after it was canned, was it a side effect of going too far with the echo?

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My money's on this. Something funky happening with the experiments would explain Varis' nonchalant reaction to his death. The man who died was no longer his son but something that had been wearing his face and speaking with his voice.

Zenos may be a psychopath, but I don't think he was "stupid". Or he'd be soft-interned in some padded cell at the capital. He is likely smarter than Alphinaud and Alisaie, to be able to survive and thrive in a cutthroat environment like the Garlean military. We know he received the best tutors and trainers possible when he was young, which is part of why he is so powerful with weapons as well. It takes intelligence to be excellent. And even though some people are actually crazy, there is always some truth, some uncanny wisdom in what they say, from their .. "unique" perspectives.

If Zenos wanted to, he could most likely have become emperor too, eventually, waiting out his father's death, or even taking matters into his own hands sooner if he was capable. The attitude his father held to him could also be interpreted as "I really wished he wasn't my son but now that he is I probably wouldn't say something like that for ... um, reasons". It means Zenos was still under partial control, or the emperor would've taken actions into his own hands if it meant Zenos was going to do something crazy like defect or start an indiscriminate slaughter fest every other weekend. It could also be interpreted the other way around, Zenos realizes he is the emperor's son, and loves his father. This is what keeps in in partial check and unconditional loyalty to the Garleans, despite everything else.

Perhaps Zenos was so intelligent he saw through the farce which was the Garlean ideal and became disillusioned, even psychotic from the disappointment. And he became so cynical, that just from seeing the WoL stand before him, his ideal counterpart and what he could have been had he a slightly different fate, now physically in his presence, just rubbed it in for him and he completely lost all hope and dreams of eventually making it out. E.g. becoming emperor and finally "doing some good". Even the most excellent and smartest of people can become disillusioned, not to mention a young man like Zenos. Thus he really lost his marbles near the end, making him act like crazy, and culminating in his eventual suicide via primal. He could have made it much longer and harder for us, and everyone else including the Garleans as revenge, if he wanted to, but he didn't, which means he didn't truly treat us like an enemy, just wanted to put on a "show" for us, to go out in a spectacular way for himself too, and end the charade of dealing with all those concerns listed above, as he couldn't take it anymore.

If he was truly that sick, he would have become jealous with hate at our favor, and wanting to torment us, picked off our allies methodologically, one by one, just to hurt us. But he didn't, in fact he quite did the opposite; he only killed those he was at war with already, the resistance. People he considers not even people for simply being inferior (same for some Garleans on his own side). But us he treated with respect, despite twisted respect. So I can imagine if he could be redeemed, he would likely have become a great person, treating everyone with that kind of heartfelt "respect". But no, bad end for him. (And bad end for me, I paused subscription because SB was so disappointing.)

Sounds like a classic depression story to me.

We will never know why some people do act crazy, without being in their shoes. For us, they are absolutely unreasonably crazy, but for them, in their plight, even the most unnatural of options start seeming "normal" for them, especially if they realized they would be rubbed in in the end no matter what. Think the Facist generals in WW2, they wanted to fight till the end despite losing the war and losing support. Why? Possibly because they were not actually stupid, and they realized they could either die in battle, or die from being hanged for war crimes after they surrender. Or just hanged anyways out of spite. And because this defeat was obviously due to the fault of their subordinates, and the inability of other people, whom they now don't consider people anymore, in their sick mindstate, they have no pity in getting them all killed, in fact thinking that getting them all killed in battle would have been an "honour" and "mercy" to them. Of course there were some good people, but there were also worse. And Zenos was hardly the worse of them all.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

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This is an interesting take on Zenos, though if I may differ:

I agree that he is aware of the Empire's reasoning for its crusade against the eikons being a sham, either because he's too smart or too crazy to buy it.

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Originally Posted by Zenos yae Galvus

All eikons must be exterminated, without exception. Such was the imperial mandate issued by my great-grandfather after he saw firsthand the destruction wrought by one such being. They are a blight upon this star, he felt, and so he began his great and just crusade. Pah! Twas not justice which spurred his campaign but fear! Fear of the eikons, fear of their power. Cowardice made them march forth to battle. Pathetic!

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He knows the Imperial cause is not just, but simply a means of self-preservation and/or a way to get obstacles to its conquest out of the way.

To spell out what I'm trying to hint at, Zenos takes the Empire's "might makes right" ideal to its logical extreme. He's taught from a young age that the path to success is becoming the most powerful, so he does just that and becomes one of if not the finest warrior the Empire has ever produced, and seeks further power through bio-augmentation (and later Resonance). Tying this in with his seemingly inherent sociopathy, this would produce the monster he was - someone who cares nothing for others but as tools to use as he sees fit or measuring sticks for his own power, and should they displease him they can be disposed of as he wishes. Since "might makes right" even though he's a psycho Zenos was given a great deal of military power (Varis only recently became Emperor, and I believe Zenos was high legatus of the XIIth before that happened) despite clearly being unsuited for the authority such a position entails.

In short, Zenos may or may not have been a sociopath by nature, but it's the Imperial system that placed him into a position he had no business being in and indulged his monstrosity.

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Perhaps Zenos was so intelligent he saw through the farce which was the Garlean ideal and became disillusioned,

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He knows the Imperial cause is not just, but simply a means of self-preservation and/or a way to get obstacles to its conquest out of the way.

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He doesn't care.

He literally doesn't care about anything to do with the Garlean Empire, his father's crusade, the primals/eikons. Anything.

Zenos values strength and skill. When we face him in Doma, he tells us flat out that he lives only for time in between the seconds of combat. His ennui at life is because in his position, his upbringing - the training and the experimentation - have rendered him without equal. Until we meet him, no one can give the rush he's seeking, and he indulges in his sadist and violent nature by brutalizing everything around him.

His comments about his father are revealing of that nature. Such a man would not fear the eikons. He would seek to fight them in battle, not hide behind his Empire. I'm sure had the chance, he would fight a primal head on. The reason he didn't do that with a certain primal is because he more or less realized that we have no control over our own power and the only time we're truly at the top of our game is when we're doing what we do best - fighting primals. He wanted to experience the "legendary Warrior of Light" in all our glory.

You're trying to redeem him, but the reality he is a very brutal character, and that's why he sees us as kindred spirit. Lyse said it best, we do what needs to be done. We don't have much time for politics or intrigue, we're very pure in the sense that we are a pure warrior. We live for combat and our nature is revealed when we're doing what Hydaelyn tasked us to do. There's no need to redeem or excuse him, that would make no sense, he lived and died on his own terms. He was a monster who indulged in it, but it was not a personal thing for him.

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Originally Posted by Delily

We don't have much time for politics or intrigue, we're very pure in the sense that we are a pure warrior. We live for combat and our nature is revealed when we're doing what Hydaelyn tasked us to do. There's no need to redeem or excuse him, that would make no sense, he lived and died on his own terms. He was a monster who indulged in it, but it was not a personal thing for him.

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Ah I see it now, thanks. I think your theory is probably the closest to the philosophy the developers had when they planned the scenario. "No buts, just fight". WoL is "warrior" for a reason. Can't say I like this focus on the Disciples of War, but it's sound writing nonetheless.

I acknowledge that Zenos was looking not just for a fight, but a good fight. I also acknowledge he did not care about justice or the Imperial cause, he just paid lip service to the latter to get what he wanted. I'm not trying to redeem him or excuse his actions.

Just point out that, twisted and insane as he may have been, Zenos was but a symptom of Garlean social problems. How much of his psychopathy was simply nature is somewhat irrelevant - even if that simply was what Zenos was (and it very well could have been), if not for the Imperial social structure and philosophy he would not have been put in the position he was and made a danger to so many people (his own included). I don't share Lyse's belief in tabula rasa, but to believe that Zenos was just what he was and solely responsible for what he became is... inaccurate, I think. It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I acknowledge that Zenos was looking not just for a fight, but a good fight. I also acknowledge he did not care about justice or the Imperial cause, he just paid lip service to the latter to get what he wanted. I'm not trying to redeem him or excuse his actions.

Just point out that, twisted and insane as he may have been, Zenos was but a symptom of Garlean social problems. How much of his psychopathy was simply nature is somewhat irrelevant - even if that simply was what Zenos was (and it very well could have been), if not for the Imperial social structure and philosophy he would not have been put in the position he was and made a danger to so many people (his own included). I don't share Lyse's belief in tabula rasa, but to believe that Zenos was just what he was and solely responsible for what he became is... inaccurate, I think. It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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This this this so much. It is not contradictory to note that he ended up an irredeemable dumpster fire, but be left haunted by the impression that he was, at every developmental step, avoidable. Infants aren't born mass murderers. It's completely possible he had some hard-coded predispositions, meaning developing traits of psychopathy would be more likely than for someone without; and obviously, particularly as an adult with full agency, and excruciatingly as one with enormous social privilege, he was fully responsible for his choices.

But the reason his life and death actually moved me to mourning by the end of the MSQ is that he's a perfect reflection about what anyone can become in the wrong social contexts and no meaningful guidance or intervention. It's why I'm dying for no less than an entire lorebook comprising an ethnography of Imperial Garlemald--all we have to go on for his family life is the disturbing attitude his father has toward losing him, and what we can piece together of noble and royal life in the Empire. What kind of life history did he have where, amidst virtually limitless privileges, Zenos' psychological development was left in enough of a vacuum to produce a complete psychopath?

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Originally Posted by Jyera

the disturbing attitude his father has toward losing him

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Well on second thought, maybe his father was simply that strong of a person. "My son died. Regrettable, but meh. Yes, I care, you idiot, I just don't get affected by it. Besides, he seriously had it coming by now. I'm not stupid, like him."

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

Well on second thought, maybe his father was simply that strong of a person. "My son died. Regrettable, but meh. Yes, I care, you idiot, I just don't get affected by it. Besides, he seriously had it coming by now. I'm not stupid, like him."

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Yeah, a lot of people on this forum got the wrong idea from that cutscene I feel. Rather than taking his reaction to Zenos's death as some sort of great proof of his rationality and the like, I think it was more meant to convey just how cold Varis was as a person. He was introduced spitting on the grave of his grandfather after all, it's clear the man doesn't care much for family. Granted, he might have logical reasons to hate blood relations given the whole civil war thing...but it's true either way. I also definitely agree that Garlemald and his family had a part to play in Zenos's in how he became the monster he was before his death.

Garlemald's government and military structure wouldn't try and reign in his impulses, if anything it would progress them. Their 'Might Makes Right' philosophy was probably especially appealing to Zenos, and it also allowed him an incredible amount of latitude and power despite his instabilities making him a rather poor commander and even poorer governor. Granted, societies crafting the villains is kind of a running theme in FFXIV, especially Stormblood, so it would be apt for Zenos to follow a similar mold. If anything it would connect him to the other primary antagonist of Stormbood, Yotsuyu, who also became a monster since nobody tried to help her. This also makes Lyse's push for the acceptance of others, 'An Ala Migho for everyone, even people like Fordola', more thematically appropriate.

Alternatively, that cutscene was a lie, because Varis was putting up an act in front of Elidibus the whole time. Which is also not to say that Varis secretly cared about Zenos or anything, far from it. He openly stated that Zenos wasn't meant for the throne, which was probably a sign that even the Garlean Empire has limits in this regard.

It's funny how that entire scene was a ball of contradictions, at least to me. Was Varis putting up an act and he really did care about Zenos, or was he just stating the truth and he couldn't give less of a damn if he tried? If it was the former, then whoever Elidibus hijacked must be someone truly special, to get through to Varis like that (my money's still on Regula) or maybe even his reaction was a calculated act, in the case of the latter.

I feel like the writers should've gone a different direction to make Zenos more unlikeable. For example: Yotsuya. I have absolutely no sympathy for her, and even her sob story was wasted on me, because we spent so much time on her being a complete monster, that I just loved hating her, and throwing in her history was just... weak storytelling. The whole thing was so ridiculously contrived. If Zenos had gotten the same treatment, more people would probably have hated him.

They almost got me to truly hating Yotsuyu by making her partially responsible for the death of Gosetsu ... then they "resurrect" both of them and Gosetsu has somehow accepted her now. So am I supposed to hate her or what? I'm really getting confused. I can get how old Gosetsu has such a large heart he'd forgive anyone, but does that mean I have to have such a big heart too? Ok, assume I do, which gets us back to topic, Ahem. If Yotsuyu and Fordola get their redemption arcs, Zenos should be granted the same mercy, too, please.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

Well on second thought, maybe his father was simply that strong of a person. "My son died. Regrettable, but meh. Yes, I care, you idiot, I just don't get affected by it. Besides, he seriously had it coming by now. I'm not stupid, like him."

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I don't agree that that's strength, I'm afraid. The paraphrasing you wrote up is basically the attitude he had that I was talking about. He could not be moved to feel anything but contempt for his own son, and if what lies just below that is that he thought of Zenos' psychological state as just-so or inevitable, he's at the very least guilty of failing to intervene in Zenos' development out of neglect or deterministic apathy or both.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

Rather than taking his reaction to Zenos's death as some sort of great proof of his rationality and the like, I think it was more meant to convey just how cold Varis was as a person. He was introduced spitting on the grave of his grandfather after all, it's clear the man doesn't care much for family.

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Yes, this, precisely. It really twisted at my heart that he was so cold about it. Maybe it's a smaller wonder that the boy turned out the way he did, if that was his main point of reference.

I didnt personally want a redemption arc for Zenos, I actually found fighting him to be refreshing. No ulterior motives, no puppetmaster behind the scenes, and no one's will but his own. Zenos just wanted to fight and kill worthy opponents for the sheer joy of it, I found it very... honest in a way, if that makes sense.

As far as Zenos taking the throne I don't think he'd want it, being a warrior as he is, I don't think he wants to be a politician. I also have this personal theory that Varis sent Zenos to Ala mihgo specifically to keep him far away and in a place where he'd be most useful.

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They almost got me to truly hating Yotsuyu by making her partially responsible for the death of Gosetsu ... then they "resurrect" both of them and Gosetsu has somehow accepted her now. So am I supposed to hate her or what? I'm really getting confused. I can get how old Gosetsu has such a large heart he'd forgive anyone, but does that mean I have to have such a big heart too? Ok, assume I do, which gets us back to topic, Ahem. If Yotsuyu and Fordola get their redemption arcs, Zenos should be granted the same mercy, too, please.

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The difference between Fordola and Yotusuyu is that a significant reason why the latter chooser her path was am understandable and deeply seated hatred for Doma because of her abusive aunt. Fordola chose her path because she saw Ala Mihgo as weak and the Empire as strong, and even when presented with the case the Empire is not invincible, she only strengthened her resolve. After learning of the Empire's defeat in Mor Dhonna, after seeing the campaign stalled in Eorzea, after hearing about the liberation of Doma, she could have decided that her choice was wrong and started working to atone, but she didn't. It only increased her contempt for her country.

It's possible that Gosetu's forgivness of Yotsuyu may be the catalyst that drives her to seek her own redemption. I'm not really sure ANYTHING could drive Fordola down a similar path. The Empire has given her much, she's going to stick with it.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

They almost got me to truly hating Yotsuyu by making her partially responsible for the death of Gosetsu ... then they "resurrect" both of them and Gosetsu has somehow accepted her now. So am I supposed to hate her or what? I'm really getting confused. I can get how old Gosetsu has such a large heart he'd forgive anyone, but does that mean I have to have such a big heart too? Ok, assume I do, which gets us back to topic, Ahem. If Yotsuyu and Fordola get their redemption arcs, Zenos should be granted the same mercy, too, please.

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I don't think it's a case of Gosetsu having a large enough heart that he'd forgive anyone (he actually seems rather annoyed in that final scene), but rather that he has such staunch convictions regarding the influence of the Kami in his life that he has simply accepted his current situation as fate and, for lack of a better descriptor, a duty to be seen through to whatever end it holds.

Essentially, his view might be that the Kami have plans for him and Yotsuyu, otherwise they wouldn't have both survived, and so now it is his responsibility to see that they continue to survive so that whatever capricious fate the Kami have in store can be carried out.

It's also worth noting that Gosetsu and Yotsuyu appear to have at least some sort of history together; I can't find the exact part at the moment, but doesn't he refer to her as somebody's widow? He also speaks to her as if they're acquainted whenever they're on screen together, particularly in the cutscene when he surrenders himself to her.

While the survival of either does sort of beggar belief, there would seem to be hints as to why he might save her peppered throughout the story.

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

It's also worth noting that Gosetsu and Yotsuyu appear to have at least some sort of history together; I can't find the exact part at the moment, but doesn't he refer to her as somebody's widow? He also speaks to her as if they're acquainted whenever they're on screen together, particularly in the cutscene when he surrenders himself to her.

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After giving himself up to Yotsuyu to be tortured, Gosetsu refers to her as the "orphan of the Naeuri" and "widow of Sashihai," or something to that effect. (The names might not be entirely accurate. I'm not rewatching that cutscene just to get perfect accuracy.) There is no information on where he learned of Yotsuyu's past, but my guesses are that it become relatively widespread knowledge after she became acting viceroy or the two had some past in the Doman Liberation Front (Yotsuyu was a spy, after all).

On the subject of Varis, I concur that the main point of the post-credits scene of him with Elidibus, or more specifically his commentary on Zenos, was meant to demonstrate how cold he was. That he should brush off his son's death without a single tear is just bone-chillingly cold. I understand that Zenos was meant to be a character nobody liked or sympathized with - I still don't, despite my attempts to explore his psychology and past - but to have his own father not shed a single tear is just icy. Even for me.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

I feel like the writers should've gone a different direction to make Zenos more unlikeable. For example: Yotsuya. I have absolutely no sympathy for her, and even her sob story was wasted on me, because we spent so much time on her being a complete monster, that I just loved hating her, and throwing in her history was just... weak storytelling. The whole thing was so ridiculously contrived. If Zenos had gotten the same treatment, more people would probably have hated him.

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I'm in the same boat. Her sob story actually made me even less sympathetic with her than before.

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Originally Posted by Eyvhokan

I'm in the same boat. Her sob story actually made me even less sympathetic with her than before.

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With the way it was told to us, I honestly felt like we should've taken it with a massive pile of salt. The Echo flashback was... subjective. And the rest of her story, we heard from Yotsuya herself, while at swordpoint. We're taking the word of a known liar, spoken under duress, as the truth?

Apart from that, all these sob stories remind me of Naruto, and the way everyone and their mother's dog had a sob story in that series. That is not a road we want to go down, thank you.