Class => Job => ???

What if instead of adding new jobs, SE lets us branch off of existing ones like ARC getting to choose between Healer or DPS? Example, MCH getting to choose to stay DPS at lvl 80 or a gun wielding Chemist Healer? Just a thought.

Not happening, they said they will never do anything like that again as they are having so many issues with SMN and SCH.

If SMN and SCH are anything to go by, that's not a welcoming idea.

Don't get me wrong, it seems cool, but that's what was in their minds with arcanist being able to go multiple paths. It became a balancing nightmare as you couldn't touch, say, half of scholar's kit without also touching summoner. Let's say black mage and summoner are doing too well, because of fire I and ruin I. You can easily fix fire I, but if you weaken ruin 1, now scholar got hit, even if it wasn't doing well.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

What if instead of adding new jobs, SE lets us branch off of existing ones like ARC getting to choose between Healer or DPS? Example, MCH getting to choose to stay DPS at lvl 80 or a gun wielding Chemist Healer? Just a thought.

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They plan on removing classes ( by 5.0 launch if I remember correctly. May change who knows. ). This wont happen.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

If SMN and SCH are anything to go by, that's not a welcoming idea.

Don't get me wrong, it seems cool, but that's what was in their minds with arcanist being able to go multiple paths. It became a balancing nightmare as you couldn't touch, say, half of scholar's kit without also touching summoner. Let's say black mage and summoner are doing too well, because of fire I and ruin I. You can easily fix fire I, but if you weaken ruin 1, now scholar got hit, even if it wasn't doing well.

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while this was true, they've gotten very far away from this.

SCH doesn't have Bio/Miasma/Ruin III, SMN doesn't have Broil or Quickened Aetherflow.

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

They plan on removing classes ( by 5.0 launch if I remember correctly. May change who knows. ). This wont happen.

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This isn't true either. They said they would think about removing classes only IF they can find a way to make the early game work without classes. But as of right now classes are too rooted in the early progression of leveling, lore and story.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

This isn't true either. They said they would think about removing classes only IF they can find a way to make the early game work without classes. But as of right now classes are too rooted in the early progression of leveling, lore and story.

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If they didn't want to do away with the class system eventually all the new jobs would have started at level 1 with a class. Just my 2 cents. Their actions speak just about as loudly as Yoshi's words about disliking the class system. :o

Classes are an antiquated system from 1.0 that need to be overhauled. It would go a long way to helping Summoner/Scholar as well.

It's a shame, I'd really welcome multiple job stones on a single class.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

It's a shame, I'd really welcome multiple job stones on a single class.

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It is but they can't balance it, I look forward to overhauling SMN and SCH from splitting them once in for all, the balance issues is madding.

I doono what "ARC getting to choose between Healer or DPS" means though... but now that I looked in the game and saw "ACN" is the TC talking about the ACN/SCH/SMN thing? because that is exactly why it shouldn't happen, lol

I've always been in favour of the class+split-jobs system, so it's sad to see them turn against that.

Honestly, classes are the better-designed facet of the game to me as it is (and when cross-class skills were a thing, even more-so) while jobs just felt tacked on and many of them just seem... off, for lack of a better term...
Flipping the roles of Thaumaturge and Conjurer way-back-when simply to have them go to Black Mage and White Mage respectively wasn't cool either, IMO, but whatever. :-/

Granted, the whole Arcanist->Scholar/Summoner was kind of wonky from the get-go, but Arcanist at its core just seems kind of random and poorly-thought-out to me (with Summoner and Scholar being the most 'forced' of all evolving jobs on top of that).
Lorewise, I'm not sure why the Biomancy angle was even there, and even the carbuncle summon was more like a "Naturally, our studies lead to the summoning of Carbuncle... Naturally" kind of justification than anything that actually seemed... well... natural.
The current lore would seem to lend itself more to an AoE trap-master style of gameplay to me, but eh...
Disregarding that though, I still say that arcanist should have been split from the start with both splits getting branching jobs.
1) Take the biomancy half and build a class around that, then evolve it into Scholar (ideally with a plague-doctor motif) and and DoT-heavy 'plague-bringer' kind of class.
2) Take the summoning half and build a class around that, then evolve it into a proper summoner, and possibly a new take on Blue Mage (Summoner could be like Ellen from Folklore, while Blue Mage could be more like Keats).

If we did get continue with classes and split jobs though, we could have had
1) A proper gunner/musketeer that could become a machinist or a sniper (still salty about this one. Musketeers already had a damned guild!)
2) Archer could split into Bard or Ranger (though with better foresight, the whole Archer->Bard thing could have been avoided too)
3) Necromancer could be an alternate path to white mage (And I still say both should have come from Thaumaturge, but eh...) Ship's already sailed here though, TBH. They wasted the character best suited to being the teacher here.
4) We could have had advanced jobs where Red Mage was actually unlocked by progressing to a certain point with White Mage and Black Mage.

Basically, I'd say we should start over and retcon everything that's already been shoved into the lore about them so classes and jobs can make more sense. >_>
Which isn't going to happen, granted, so at least it would be nice to see new classes/jobs/splits handled well rather than abandoning the core basis of it because they didn't handle Arcanist properly (and because they don't want to make anyone start at level 1 again).

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

while this was true, they've gotten very far away from this.

SCH doesn't have Bio/Miasma/Ruin III, SMN doesn't have Broil or Quickened Aetherflow.

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Arcanist doesn't have either of those, which helps on my point... ish.

Basically, the fix to SCH and SMN's issue is to have traits transform as many class skills into job skills that they can. Broil was put in the game so they could balance ruin if needed. Bio/MiasmaIII is the same case, so they can change smn without touching sch. Some still exist though where touching one hurts the other, like Bane, Shadow Flare, Aetherflow, etc.

Honestly I'd like if we just got away from class system entirely and just got SCH and SMN split apart into their own sections.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Some still exist though where touching one hurts the other, like Bane, Shadow Flare, Aetherflow, etc.

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all of which can be fixed with additional traits if they think it was a problem. Bane Mastery, Shadowflare Mastery, they can add whatever they want. none of the issues with SCH and SMN now are because they are linked.

they don't care about balance under Lv 60 anyway. the only thing they should change about ACN is make it a healer role and give regular carbuncle a cure.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

What if instead of adding new jobs, SE lets us branch off of existing ones like ARC getting to choose between Healer or DPS? Example, MCH getting to choose to stay DPS at lvl 80 or a gun wielding Chemist Healer? Just a thought.

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Because specs suck and can't be balanced. See SMN & SCH or WoW for examples.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

all of which can be fixed with additional traits if they think it was a problem. Bane Mastery, Shadowflare Mastery, they can add whatever they want. none of the issues with SCH and SMN now are because they are linked.

they don't care about balance under Lv 60 anyway. the only thing they should change about ACN is make it a healer role and give regular carbuncle a cure.

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It's still showing a failure if you need to give something a bunch of traits just to balance the two apart.

The only other thing I can think of is just coding the job crystal to give different potency, but would Square do that?

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

It is but they can't balance it, I look forward to overhauling SMN and SCH from splitting them once in for all, the balance issues is madding.

I doono what "ARC getting to choose between Healer or DPS" means though... but now that I looked in the game and saw "ACN" is the TC talking about the ACN/SCH/SMN thing? because that is exactly why it shouldn't happen, lol

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SCH and SMN are already so split from each other. Differing traits and basic abilities.
And since we removed the bonus stat points from the game, even less reason to avoid more job stones per class.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

It's still showing a failure if you need to give something a bunch of traits just to balance the two apart.

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that's not why they do it? RDM gets Jolt upgrade just like SCH gets Broil upgrade, BRD gets Bite updates just like SMN gets Bio/Miasma updates. the balance is part of it but it's not the main reason.

Yeah of anything, traits are exactly how the balance should happen.

VIT wasn't calculated into Tank damage until later in the patches, right? Im genuinely asking. I dont remember. Before NIN, DEX was strictly an Archer/Bard stat. SE modified it afterwards. A Chemist in this example could use DEX as its main healing potency stat (throwing potions n all). SE has made changes to stats quite a few times already. For discussion's sake, anything could happen. The DPS role has different stats for determining damage for the different jobs (strength, dex, int...) Why cant healers use different stats too? DPS are split into melee, ranged physical, range magic or whatever. Tanks n Heals could too. Just saying. Arcanist => Scholar/Summoner was a mess but it shouldnt be the excuse for SE as to why branching can never happen again. I love gunplay classes in MMORPGs and would be disappointed if MCH is the only one to play as such in the life of the series.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

What if instead of adding new jobs, SE lets us branch off of existing ones like ARC getting to choose between Healer or DPS? Example, MCH getting to choose to stay DPS at lvl 80 or a gun wielding Chemist Healer? Just a thought.

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It won't happen, SE already admitted they goofed with it for SUM and SCH due to the balancing nightmare it caused. I doubt too they would want to redesign the class systems to put in a talent tree and spec system to pull it off either. It's easier for them to just design a new job and call it a day.

I'm in favor of removing classes, but my only concern would be my lvl. Only drk, mch, ast, rdm, and sam are jobs. The rest was spent lvling a class I.e. Always getting gladiator xp and never getting pld xp. I don't want to re-lvl anything so if the Xp can be transferred I'd be ok with it.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

I'm in favor of removing classes, but my only concern would be my lvl. Only drk, mch, ast, rdm, and sam are jobs. The rest was spent lvling a class I.e. Always getting gladiator xp and never getting pld xp. I don't want to re-lvl anything so if the Xp can be transferred I'd be ok with it.

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They'll simply change the names and nothing else. Think of it like how the job tab in our character menu now lists actually jobs once unlocked instead of the classes.

Anywho, they will never implement branching jobs/classes because it's essentially developing a whole new job. Why have a Machinist who can be a healer when you can just design an actual Chemist to be said healer? That is how FFXIV handles class deviation. You simply switch to another one entirely.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

VIT wasn't calculated into Tank damage until later in the patches, right? Im genuinely asking.

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VIT became the damage dealing stat for tanks in Heavensward. They opted to change it back to STR with Stormblood as they didn't want tanks to take both a damage and HP loss when dealing with the revive debuff. Or take less of a loss by not losing damage output from the VIT not getting a debuff. It was much simpler to just revert back to the ARR method, and Tenacity was supposed to make up the difference (it doesn't.)

This loss of DPS for tanks lead to some heated debates on the forums and reddit as some felt like they needed to stack STR accessories, despite the cut that puts in their survivability. SE eventually stepped in, promising all new Tank gear will have more STR and that the new Tenacity stat will get scaled better.

As for the thread subject, as someone who heavily plays both SCH and SMN, no. I really don't think SE should do another branching job. While the new system of replacing old skill with their stronger potency upgrades relieved some of the job's balancing issues, there are still multible issues on each.

Physic being essentially useless to SMN despite being their only heal is a good example. Because it scales off of Mind, it can get some use for a SCH as the lowbie heal (cure 1/benefic 1 as it were), but since SMN is primarily INT, and caster gear never has Mind, it's basically the healing equivalent of kissing a boo-boo.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

I'm in favor of removing classes, but my only concern would be my lvl. Only drk, mch, ast, rdm, and sam are jobs. The rest was spent lvling a class I.e. Always getting gladiator xp and never getting pld xp. I don't want to re-lvl anything so if the Xp can be transferred I'd be ok with it.

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It's only renaming classes as job for most, except arcanist. With slight work editing the job quests.
I'm okay with removing too. Maybe they can work out solution for SMN and SCH separate someday.

On a lore standpoint they really can't remove classes just like that because of how ARR jobs connect to them but I get it, nobody actually cares about the lore.
I don't see a point in removing them either since it changes nothing but names.

Also, I don't see the point of separating SMN and SCH anymore since they each have their own job skills/traits to go for and level 50 content is long obsolete to even care. Bonus attributes also don't exist anymore.

Separating sch and smn would be easy. Just make smn a job that starts at 30. Like the HW jobs. Wouldn't break lore or need quest re-writes.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

On a lore standpoint they really can't remove classes just like that because of how ARR jobs connect to them but I get it, nobody actually cares about the lore.

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I think more do care about the lore but the ones that don't will voice there opinion the loudest to make it changed.

Honestly with the way they changed some things this expansion with the traits I don't see it as an issue anymore to keep going on about classes staying in the game.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

On a lore standpoint they really can't remove classes just like that because of how ARR jobs connect to them but I get it, nobody actually cares about the lore.

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SMN and SCH would require separate lores entirely. Should be left alone until they have foundation for both but the rest, is there something we're missing?
It's not like we never see our class shifu/guildmaster anymore, progressing just shift more advanced teachers and weapons.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Honestly with the way they changed some things this expansion with the traits I don't see it as an issue anymore to keep going on about classes staying in the game.

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Yeah, but it seems like a nonsensical effort to me. So far people just want it gone because it's a relic of the past.

Although...do people still play high-level content as classes? Then that would be a good reason to get rid of them.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

On a lore standpoint they really can't remove classes just like that because of how ARR jobs connect to them but I get it, nobody actually cares about the lore.

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I very much care about the lore, which is why I think the whole thing is shaky as-is.

Thaumaturge was about manipulating the energies within and tailored around status effects, buffs/debuffs, etc.
Conjurer was essentially described as an elementalist.*
Then they introduced jobs and, seemingly for purely aesthetic reasons, decided Thaumaturge should become Black Mage and Conjurer should become White Mage, forcing them to become an elementalist and a healer respectively.
*I see the official description now has a bit about conjurers being healers as well. I don't recall reading that bit in the early 1.X era, but I could be wrong; was that always there?

Arcanist is just a mess where half of the class isn't especially supported by their lore, and the other half is just something that they just claim as being a natural extension of their focus/field, but which... logically doesn't seem to be.
Then you go into Summoner which half-assed the summons to give us EGIs and then went out of its way to justify why it couldn't give more EGIs in a lame fashion (Ramuh EGI shouldn't intrinsically be more taxing than Ifrit EGI since a primal's power is entirely random and fluctuates between summonings), and had to drag Allag back into the mix (Tired of Allag for one. And they work better as an 'Old Garlemald' with more focus paid to the Magiteck rather than looking at acual Magicks, IMO).
And Scholar where... You're a scholar because you have a rock and a Faerie. You don't research anything. You don't study anything. The most scholarly thing you do is go someplace your told to and bring back the rock/urn/whatever you've been told to find. But you have a Faerie and act like a medic so... scholar?

Then there's Machinist where, as a player in-game put it recently 'you don't even make any of your own stuff'. Some dude hands you some turrets and additional gadgets and you just use them. Granted, I have issues with trying to force gunner and engineer into one job with no other paths for people that just want one of the two, but you're not even a proper engineer. :-(

Then there's Bard. They technically explain that one, but I still find it a cop-out (especially when Thancred still calls himself a Bard).

This is all on the nose.

Tanaka decided FFXIV needed it's own version of the job system with totally unique jobs in their attempts to separate FFXIV from FFXI. When Yoshi-P stepped in, these new classes not aligning with the beloved jobs of FF canon was one of the first bits of 1.0 weirdness brought up.

So, they just looked at which class could most easily be "upgraded" into a FF job and went from there. In fact, arcanist was in 1.0 as a not yet implemented class option. I guess they felt like this trend was required in 2.x as they made Rouge/Ninja the same way way, breaking the hearts of players dreaming of a Theif class the world over.

Just, please, based Yoshi-P, make Geomancer playable in 5.0 or earlier. Please.

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

Conjurer and Thaumaturge

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Conjurer had Protect, Shell and healing spells in 1.0 so it fits for them to evolve into White Mage, and in most cases WHM can use some element-aspected spells. Not sure if they were referred to as healers in the 1.0 lore though.
But yeah, how Thaumaturge becomes Black Mage is a bit of a stretch when Conjurer had all the element-aspected spells at 1.0 launch but it's a thing of the past now. It's just aesthetic though.

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Summoner and Scholar

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For Summoner...yeah I feel like they should rewrite the lore to unrestrict the variety for summoning, but before that they have to give the job at least Leviathan, Ramuh and Shiva summons.

And yeah, Scholar is more of a war tactician and medic actually than a literal bookworm. It makes it interesting in my opinion.

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Thancred still calls himself a Bard

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I think he's referring to him being just a bard and not Bard as a job.

I can't say anything about Arcanist or Machinist though since their lore didn't interest me that much to remember, but I should read on the lore of every job to refresh my memory.

Arcanists don't really have lore. They're just customs officials that employ Carbuncles as a means of enforcement. Literally they could use any other means of defense. They weren't a pet class nor a tome weilding job in 1.0.


It's really odd since all the other classes have major city-state lore intermingled within them. Limsa's is the odd one out in this regard, at least until Rogue happened.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Arcanists don't really have lore. They're just customs officials that employ Carbuncles as a means of enforcement. Literally they could use any other means of defense. They weren't a pet class nor a tome weilding job in 1.0.

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Their concept is using math and symbology to manipulate Aether though. Which to me would make sense with creating traps or much more crude constructs.
The way they just tack on "And thus they can summon Carbuncle" just feels kind of lazy and shoehorned... And the other abilities don't even really get any focus or explanation as to how they are related to geometric manipulation of Aether at all. It's basically just handwaved out-of-game as "Yeah, they have 'miscellaneous abilities' and stuff" and not even touched on to that extent in-game from what I remember.

That said, I don't have the supplemental lore book that was released, so it's possible there's more in there about it.

Having multiple different job on same class would help leveling if dps class can play tank or healer job. Thats what i like about smn. Even if i do dungeons as scholar i could level my summoner.

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

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This is more just, they should have just stuck with FF job names to begin with, instead of starting with the class system. It's less trying to fit classes into the jobs being added into them and more that the classes shouldn't have been added at all and 1.0 should have just been jobs to begin with. It's literally a Final Fantasy staple.

That said, WHM usually has had elemental spells, namely wind and holy. SCH is just supposed to be a grey mage of sorts, with Libra tacked on.

Ok, so, yeah, we all point at SMN/SCH as the textbook reason not to combo jobs, but, would they be less problematic if the supposed jobs were of the same role? The balancing problems of SMN/SCH are largely due to the dps/healer schism.

And, now that they're aware of the problems common to such a system, maybe they'd have a better chance to future-proof any base classes.

Of course, that requires more work and effort and time and money, when they could just skip the depth and complexity and jump straight to the jobs people actually want.

they can balance this, when they change every single skill when you equip a job crystal.

for example you play the base class and all your skills are in the "class" layer. now you equip a job crystal on that class and all your skills in the "class" layer are gone, instead you get a whole pack of new skills in the "job" layer. that can be the same skills, same anmimations, same potencys, or adjusted potencys or whatever and of course new skills.
now you can balance this job without touching the base class and you can add as many jobs as you wish on that same base class.

I'm inclined to think 5.0 gets rid of the "soul" and we all get just "jobs" from level 1. It will be an headache do it for existing acn/sch/smn but I think it is for sake of less trouble on further development of them.

I find it much more likely they'll eventually build up the job trait options to the point where we can customize characters based on the traits selected.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

I find it much more likely they'll eventually build up the job trait options to the point where we can customize characters based on the traits selected.

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I saw something along the line in another game but it doesn't ended up so well, I mean, everyone just equipping the "right" stuff and all content runned by same copy&paste skillset.