Hi there, Lace Valeria, avid XIV PvPer. With the changes of 4.0, there's been a large influx of newer players in PvP overall and over the course of several matches last night, I spotted a few crucial mistakes that, if made aware, players can avoid and improve the quality of their match experiences. From time to time, I may reference a guide I previously wrote here; it's worth a read, even if you already do know the information within. Now then, let's get started.
1. Not Playing Multiple Objectives/Relying On A Single Objective - I'd say this alone can be a big liability to your team's success, but thing is, many newer players are given the mistaken impression that Shatter is all about the ice. The ice IS important, yes, but far from your sole means of scoring.
How To Fix It: Please refer to #5 in the guide. Namely, take advantage of every opportunity to score. Is some lone player trying to ride past you on their mount? Free points. Half dead enemies at the ice? Take them out. Easy 5 points, and they'll break quicker than the ice will. Is your team late to the ice? Go cap bases (leading team's first!), and take out any stragglers - at best, a few of them will back off the ice to come secure their base. All in all, take advantage of all the possible ways to score instead of just relying on the ice.
2. Melees: Using Adrenaline Rush On The Ice - Imagine my utter awe last as a greater number of my team was at the SW ice than one of the others, who only had perhaps 4 or 5 of theirs there (probably less than that as I know I took a few down on the way in), and while they were all half health (likely for the next reason below), I watch a DRG on my team use his Adrenaline Rush on the ice. . .
How To Fix It: Well, I'm not saying don't use it on the ice, but I WILL say between the ice and a half health enemy attacking the ice, it should be quite obvious what to use it on. Consider this: That half-dead enemy will break quicker than the ice will, AND that's one less enemy attacking your ice, which means less damage from their team, thus more points for yours. And a melee LB on 50% HP or less is a guaranteed KO.
3. Dropping Off A Cliff To Reach The Ice When Enemies Are Already There - If the other team has reached the ice first, dropping off a cliff and thus losing half your health is a terrible idea. Speaking from the perspective of your opposition: You're half dead, and I can take you down faster than I can break the ice. Might as well take 5 extra points per player AND stop you from taking any points from the ice at the same time.
How To Fix It: I already covered the full spectrum of this in the guide, Parts 2a-2c. All in all, there's always at least 2 safe routes in. Don't take the most dangerous one, even if it is faster.
P.S. To the Ranged that want to cleverly attack from the high ground - Good idea, BUT! Speaking as a fellow ranged, if you can attack me, I can attack you. ;)
4. Getting On/Staying On A Mount or Attempting To Ride Past Enemies - I've seen this entirely too much since even 3.5. I'm sure you're excited to show off your Alte Roite/Wolf/Phoenix/mount of choice, but understand this: It's been a solid rule since Frontlines started - If you get attacked on a mount, you will gain a Heavy debuff. The name may have changed (Limp), but the effect is still the same, and speaking again from the perspective of your opposition, you won't outrun me, I CAN still stun/bind/sleep you even on the mount, and you'll be an easy target for being unable to fight back right away - even if you do get off your mount.
How To Fix It:Get off your mount before you're in range of the enemy. There really is no other options.
5. Ignoring Battle Highs/Battle Fevers - A few times I've seen players simply ignore the Battle High/Battle Fever players on the other team, instead trying to stick to the objectives or ride past them, or all kinds of bad moves. Please understand: That player has a killstreak buff. 4 for the High, 8 for the Fever, and as a result, they deal 20% and 40% more damage respectively, AND gain Adrenaline 1.25/1.5 times faster than everyone else. Ignoring them will only make them stronger, AND allow their team to create even more of them.
How To Fix It: I covered this in the guide (#4), but focus fire and work together to take them down. In these ranged-favored days, try to catch them as they push forward, and if they're hanging back, coordinate your CC abilities to isolate them/drag them out/shut them down. DRKs, WARs, you're up. Casters, you too can shine here. Keep in mind, taking down a high/fever gives more points than a regular player KO.
6. MCH Specifically: Fully Loading Before The Battle - I see this so much (and hear if I'm not looking), I'm just gonna skip right to the "How To Fix It". . . Don't do this. Ever. You only lock yourself out of heat generation for all 3 of those shots, effectively nerfing your own damage potential. Furthermore, don't use Reload when under 50 Heat (2 Hot Shots will get you to 50 with ease).
EDIT: I've heard many MCH players tell me lately, "You can just use Stun Gun to overheat" and gain access to heated shots. . . For 10 seconds, yes. OR, you can use Hot Shot twice, then with careful usage of Reloads or Cooldown, manage your heat indefinitely. It's 1000>1250>1500 unheated with ammo vs 1250>1500>1750 heated with ammo, and STILL having access to the only aoe stun in PvP. Please, PLEASE, do NOT fully load your gun before you engage or rely on your stun skill to have access to higher levels of damage you can otherwise achieve normally.
7. Giving Up Too Soon - I've seen people ready to call it quits after the team misses one large ice, or perhaps lose all fighting spirit after an enemy team attacks their base head on. It might sound cliche, but it ain't over til it's over.
How To Fix It: This is a hard one to really explain, but know that you CAN come back from being focused, or missing an ice, or many different scenarios, but that really does require a group effort. I say this speaking from experience. Did that team beat you to the ice first? Attack them and steal points back from them. Has the score shifted while you were engaged with one team and now the ones that weren't in the fight winning? Disengage (carefully) and go fight them. Is your team being focused by the other two? Use the terrain (#2b in the guide); lure them into a choke point, or a position where they'll be forced to fight each other, and mount a counteroffensive.
Above all else, just don't give up. I once led my team against an enemy team that had a score of 1582 (when I checked as we engaged) in an attack right on their base and dropped them back down into the 1400s, then proceeded to attack the last large ice to secure a a draw victory (it counted as a win, as far as achievements and such are concerned). This was not with a premade. Just one really awesome group of randoms who decided they didn't want to roll over and accept defeat. Who dares, wins.
I hope this helps! See you on the inside :)
What You're Doing Wrong In Shatter (And How To Fix It!)
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09-11-2017, 09:58 PMThirdChild_ZKIWhat You're Doing Wrong In Shatter (And How To Fix It!)
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09-11-2017, 10:06 PMKorihu
Didn't you make a simple map once showing the safe paths to an ice? You should pop it in here.
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09-11-2017, 10:14 PMThirdChild_ZKI
In the interest of time, I just linked to the guide with the map at the start :)
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09-11-2017, 10:22 PMKorihu
so lazy lol it's like two clicks :P
http://i64.tinypic.com/8x4h04.jpg
gj with guide -
09-11-2017, 11:30 PMGiglamesh
This is a good guide but I believe the main problem is a majority of players doing shatter, don't care about maximum efficiency.
A majority of players aren't looking for battle fever icons or simply don't care the enemy has em. -
09-12-2017, 12:36 AMKyarra
Thank you for this guide! I have just gotten into playing Frontline from Feast and I find I am guilty of some of the things not to do (like using my powerful attack on the ice instead of the enemy standing near it), or jumping off the cliff into a handful of enemies lol.
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09-12-2017, 12:52 AMGarten
You forgot a sub point:
If you are on Moogle, go Maelstrom Since they almost always win, and bots go on other 2 factions by frontline freelance. -
09-12-2017, 12:53 AMThirdChild_ZKI
Hey no prob! Like I said, these are just a few observations of mine, based on experience. A lot of the 4.0 PvPers won't know some of the things I learned (and hopefully won't learn them the hard way like I did, lol), so I wanted to at least point out the easy-to-correct stuff. Hope to see you in there!
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09-12-2017, 12:58 AMIlan
No don't focus players with battlehigh. I don't like to get focused. :D
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09-12-2017, 01:06 AMuvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu
#1 should be open maps at all times. Even if they follow coords, I see they get stranded left behind when the team move to next objective.
Atleast on Aether, Maelstorm only win if either the other gc ignore objectives (#1 up there).Quote:
Originally Posted by Garten
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09-12-2017, 01:19 AMSynestraYou get same cancer even on mael but the reason why they win more is because adders and immortals are even worse than mael.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garten
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09-12-2017, 08:44 AMkuma_aus
One thing that helps me immensely in shatter is knowing the ice spawn times. There's several macros that get posted to alliance chat when I have matches so people know spawn times. Here's one example, in JP because of JP data centre but it's easy to understand as long as you know that 大氷パターン = Big Ice Pattern, 小氷 = Small Ice and 分 = Minute. I tried an EN translation one but it might be a bit ugly.
[大氷パターン]
[1]19分→16分→12分→8分
[2]19分→15分x2→10分
[3]19分→15分→10分x2
[4]小氷ALL→14分→12分→10分→8分
[Big Ice Pattern]
[1]19 min→16 min→12 min→8 min
[2]19 min→15 min x2→10 min
[3]19 min→15 min→10 min x2
[4]Small Ice ALL→14 min→12 min→10 min→8 min
This is for a full 72 player match. If there was a Big Ice spawn at 19 minutes to go, then there will be another Big Ice at 16 or 15 minutes. If there was a Big Ice at 16 mins, then the next Big Ice will be at 12 mins > 8 mins. If there was no Big Ice at 16 mins, then at 15 mins there will be 1x or 2x Big Ice spawns. If there was 1x spawn, then at 10 mins there will be 2x. If there was 2x spawns, then there will be the final big ice at 10 mins. If at the start of the map, there was every small ice, then the big ice follows pattern 4 with them spawning at 14 mins > 12 > 10 > 8. If this is a 24 player map with just Big Ice, it will always follow pattern [1].
The way knowing this helps me is that it lets me know when I have free time to get other objectives or camp highly contested small ice areas before a big ice spawns. I can't log in and play properly for a few days so I can't make my own map, so I'll just be editing Valeria's to show what I mean.
https://i.imgur.com/mguLc05.png
So say I'm playing as Flames. I might stand near the purple marker after the first Big Ice at 19 minutes spawns. If there is no spawn at 16 minutes, I know that there will be another spawn at 15 minutes. So that gives me like 1 minute of just doing nothing and waiting. So instead of that, I sometimes make my way across the blue arrow and try and steal a base (Maelstorms in this case). You need to pay close attention to the map if you're trying this though. If it's clear the enemy is very close to the outpost, you might not be able to steal the base. But it's always worth to try since there have been times that the enemies haven't looked back towards the base and noticed I've been trying to steal it. And if you are successful, it normally causes around 50-80% of the enemy team to rush back to base to try and recapture the base you just stole. This frees up a lot of space for your own alliance to get a good position on any Ice that spawns at 15 minutes. You can do something similar but on the outside circle to make your way to other bases if big ice is a while away. Also say Bottom Right Ice is the last Big Ice to spawn, if you know when it will spawn, you can position yourself on the outside circle so that you can quickly steal an enemy base once they rush towards the Big Ice when it spawns.
Now say it's following pattern 1 - 3. There is a lot of free time between big ice spawns. Now on the map imagine if the big red circles I've added were Small Ice that have been destroyed, and green circles are Small Ice still alive but not spawned. If there is quite some time before the next Big Ice spawns, I know I can hang out near the Orange Circle and pressure the enemy from getting close to the 4 small ice at the top. It helps a lot if you have other people to help, but even when enemies just see you by yourself, a lot of them are a bit cautious at trying to approach especially if no Ice has spawned yet and we're just waiting. And if one of the top small ice spawns, I have a good position to start on them.
It's hard to say exactly what I mean. But with good map awareness, knowing when the big ice will spawn and knowing how most enemies react to different things you can do some good plays that really disrupt the opponent teams. -
09-13-2017, 04:57 AMGartenIf there are so good people there, why someone don't change faction to get a more interesting match?Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestra
Or why people in Adders and Flames don't go with Mael then too? -
09-13-2017, 03:42 PMSynestraGood question but from my experience majority who plays on adder/immortal simply doesn't care if they win or lose or so it looks like, they are usually just fighting each other while ignoring/avoiding maels as much as possible. I don't know why they do this seeing that they do have lots of healers so that shouldn't be a issue, they have all keys for winning but they simply don't care it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garten
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09-13-2017, 08:47 PMGartenYeah, that is why i would prefere to do a 8 vs 8 vs 8 match, instead a 72 people match. And then if only i had 7 friends do a premade party, at least i(we) could do a game that could make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestra
Then if we win would mean that probably we played better than the others, if we lose we played worse. -
09-13-2017, 08:50 PMGartenAfter reading all this post and answers, i started notice that good teams seems to keep the others away from ice that are going to spawn, and how this strategy play off a lot T_TQuote:
Originally Posted by kuma_aus
So POSITIONING and moving on the RIGHT SPOTS on the map during the match seems to weight a lot in the final outcome. -
09-13-2017, 09:30 PMGerythFantastic information here overall! But to the quoted piece, I'm going to have to say this is almost absolutely wrong!Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
I spammed frontlines for the allagan circle mounts, and I've just recently attained them, so I put in about 300 frontlines games in the past month. I main Dragoon and it took a while but I figured out how to do my role well, but I knew that even calling out ices and when to attack bases and avoid pincers etc. etc. I was still not carrying very much. And since Machinist starts at level 30, may as well try it!
So I swapped to Machinist and man was it easier. With my calls trying to lead the team and being able to range people to death, my win rate skyrocketed from ~30% to over 50%.
Proofs:
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...b96403fe89.png
I have about 100 games on machinist and I played half of those without even thinking about reloading before battle and about half after seeing others do the same, with a little bit of back and forth trying to see what works better.
90% of the time, reloading before battle is better, and the reason is ice! If Gausse Barrel is attached and then reused, you instantly overheat (this has like a 1 or 2 minute cooldown), and you have 3 loaded bullets to maximize burst to take as many points as possible from enemy ices or neutral ices heavily fought over. So at 19:45 aim for ices that you can steal points from, and use your preloaded bullets to burst as much damage as possible to steal points. I don't know for certain but I'm pretty sure there's not a single class burst combo that can out-damage machinist over the ~12 second period he's overheated and using ammo while overheated. When I run my combo I will always have ice aggro unless the ice lives a while and the sustained DPS of a melee can eventually take over.
What if an ice spawns at 19:45 that is in your base or in an enemy base or somewhere you can't get points from it? You have two options: Wait for the big ice at 19:00 to run your burst or if enemies start sparring before that ice, you have the option of bursting a player down if you think you can secure the kill.
There are two not as common ways that this doesn't work out for you.
1) You decided to wait for the 19:00 ice but an enemy team came out aggressive. You may have lost points by not securing kills by not participating in the pre-ice brawl.
2) You decided to try to burst someone down but they had good healing support and/or you didn't pick a target anyone else attacked so you didn't secure a kill. Now you're gimped against the ice when it spawns.
Again, 90% of the time and learning good intuition with experience means pre-loading bullets before the battle starts is going to net your team more points, as long as you use those pre-loaded bullets to pull off insane burst by instantly overloading your gausse barrel. -
09-13-2017, 10:43 PMThirdChild_ZKI
First, Gauss Barrel, once used, becomes the old MCH PvP aoe stun, Stun Gun. An aoe stun. Sure, it forces an overheat regardless of gauge, but you're wasting a very powerful CC tool that can be used on both offense and defense. Did a DRK just pull me in? Did a WAR just Holmgang me? Did a MNK just Shoulder Tackle me out of nowhere? Stun Gun to their face and begin a counteroffensive.
What you explained perhaps works in Shatter, but there ARE other modes too where that wouldn't quite apply. All I need is 2 Hot Shots (whether on ice or an enemy player), and I'm good to go, with increased damage and all my cc abilities readily available. Assuming the 250 potency increase of ammo is present, the heated 4500 total potency shot combo (1250>1500>1750) is the same, but I'd have the added benefit of still not being close to overheating at all due to building up, THEN reloading between the shots, thus generating no heat per shot. Basically: Hot Shot>Hot Shot>Reload>H Split>Reload>H Slug>Reload>H Clean. . . 4500 and I'm still sitting at 50 heat, AND still have my stun available if needed. Best of all, I can still deal damage at my highest due to no forced cooldown, still push into an Overheat either naturally or with Stun Gun, AND if I somehow don't want to overheat yet, there's Cooldown (the weaponskill) to keep myself heated indefinitely. . .
I don't mean to step on any toes, but if you're using your burst on the ice, that's. . . not good. But we'll chalk it up to differences in playstyle. At the most, I hit ice when I need to build heat quick (and there are no enemy players around) or when there's absolutely nothing else to do. Beyond that, I'm following the advice I gave in the guide and actively trying to take down any enemy Battle Highs/Fevers (or prevent them from happening), taking out healers, defending teammates, and stopping enemy players from hitting the ice by making sure they're not alive to. I literally have no time or concern for the ice.
You may have recently picked up MCH and performed well with it, but I've been maining it in PvE and PvP since day 1. In both 3.x when MCH had "too many buttons", and even now where our PvP gameplay is a bit too simplified now. Let's not try to weigh your month of MCH vs my 2 years of it. . . -
09-13-2017, 11:10 PMGerythYou are absolutely correct, my advice only applies to Shatter.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
You really underestimate the ice and your role as a physical DPS. Casters are gimped against ice for some reason so their focus should be on picking kills, while yours should be on ice whenever possible. Your advice was great and stands - if you can get picks, take advantage of it. You get points for the kill and you get the points for the damage they are no longer doing to the ice. But you have to be real careful about when you make that choice - if you start trying to get a pick and the target gets healing support, your time is literally wasted. You got no points for not getting a kill and you didn't do damage to the ice while they did.
But again, as a ranged physical DPS you are the safest and most reliable damage on ices. Dragoon is superior sustained overall DPS but is sooo dangerous being melee, and you are the target of getting picked (and rightfully so because if they don't kill you you're going to steal a lot of ice points).
As for the stun...different play styles. I respect your use of the ability. I always use it for DPS because I think I get more points for the ability when used for burst. I keep a sharp eye on my positioning to prevent getting holmganged or sucked in my a DRK, and I have heavy and a pushback for over-zealous melee. Sure I get caught sometimes, but that's my mistake on map awareness. With a knowledge of where my opponents are, where my allies are, and where the next ice will spawn, I can maximize my gauss barrel for points and wins instead of get-out-jail cards. But then again, it is only a 60s cooldown, so it's not like I never have it available for the stun.
Also, my experience is anecdotal. If there was a way to prove a "most efficient" way to use stun gun or precisely what gets more points - loading ammo before battle or not - then I concede to facts. But without facts and objective data, anecdotal is all I have. But with a 51% win rate queuing adders only against a Maelstrom dominated meta, I don't think my methods are too far off the optimal way to do things. Again, I respect your time and experience, but your advice on pre-loading bullets goes opposite to my experience. I'll take your advice and give it a try, and maybe I'll see things your way. -
09-13-2017, 11:12 PMLittleSparrow
I'm gonna have to agree with OP. Hot shot to get heat, then start reloading. I always reload when I have heat out of combat, and in combat I reload inbetween shots.
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09-13-2017, 11:20 PMsilverlunarfox
Can I add dont flood the chat with image macros? I get they are cool.....but when people are calling out those macros cause the helpful calls to get lost....
Smaller macros are perfectly fine and often welcome.
But stop using multi line images....
Unless we are losing, then gg post away XP -
09-14-2017, 05:12 PMMirchoh ye those are annoying like idk what, i remember in aether we used to have some players that use a macro every pre-match that, in that case it was 2.1, show how the mode worked, how the alliance teams would split, the points per pc kill and objective kill, spawn times of drones, other directives, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by silverlunarfox
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09-14-2017, 09:16 PMGuesswhat
Good tips there. Some additions:
One of the most common mistakes in frontline (especially in seize and shatter) is putting your team in a flanking situation.
This is due to ignorance, laziness, tunnelvision, etc.
In my experience this happens a lot. One usual situation in Shatter is that your team chases other team back to spawn after big crystal, ignoring position of third team, resulting in a flank at the bottleneck close to the team you are chasing.
How to avoid:
Always keep in mind where opposing teams may be. Never chase other team if you don't know position of 3rd team (if you know, it may be ok if you can steamroll other team for free points).
Stay focused to avoid tunnelvision.
And, this is a general rule. Stay together. This is true in almost any situation. There are exceptions, like when all tiny ice spawns at once in Shatter. And you don't need an entire alliance to reclaim base from 1 nin. But if you're not sure, stay together.
Be careful going to big ice furthest from spawn.
For example, if you spawn east, be careful going to big ice south-west.
Your team can't escape easily.
Your team gets flanked much easier.
Better alternatives could be taking enemy bases. this seams to be the meta at the Japanese datacenters. -
09-15-2017, 04:27 AMsaucyshortcake
This is a whole lot of information that will probably never go to use since frontlines are just ~80% bots that SE seems to not care about anyway.
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09-15-2017, 07:38 AMMirchAdding the exp on pvp was the biggest mistake feelsbadmanQuote:
Originally Posted by saucyshortcake
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09-16-2017, 12:08 AMSynestraExp was godsend but its the people who abuses it that ruins it for everyone else, this why we can't have nice things in games anymore. So for all those botters and cheaters in general i can only say "f..k you, you worthless piece of human garbage!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirch
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09-16-2017, 10:32 PMGravton
Anyone here on balmung have a pvp ls? I really enjoy frontlines but would like to group with players that have read this guide. Trying to explain why "We shouldn't fight threw the other two teams to try and get the far crystal, we should just cap the bases." Isn't going over well in chat. Losing 10 people (50 points?) to push into a crystal that is only going to net us 35 points isn't productive. When instead we could cap both bases, mop up small crystals, and murder stragglers...
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09-17-2017, 01:22 AMGarten
Me too i would like find a Ls for moogle, or if there are Italian players here, pls tell me something, we can like do a chat cross-worlds.
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09-17-2017, 02:42 PMGerythJoining a PvP linkshell is better than nothing, if there is one on Mateus I wouldn't mind participating. But when 50%+ of your team is bots, you still won't be able to corral them very well from getting into pincers or things like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravton
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09-17-2017, 04:00 PMGarten
What you are doing wrong (8 vs 8 vs 8 edition)
NOT STUNNING/SILENCING/DUNNO WHAT OTHER STATS THERE ARE.. HEALERS
If there are two on the opposing team you will never kill them, for god sake. -
09-17-2017, 04:19 PMMyon88I always thought this was par for the course everywhere, taking bases if the big ice furthest from your spawn activates that is. Unless your opponents are all incompetent, you'll be the last alliance to reach it which is a terrible position to be in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guesswhat
In a situation like that you get more points capping the other two outposts while those two alliances are fighting over the ice, sometimes even coming away with more points than the alliances hitting ice if they get distracted fighting each other and take a long time to kill it.